Winged Chaos Characters

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**Cadian16th**

Instead of necromancifying some old thread, I'm starting a new one. If this has been done recently would someone kindly provide a link and lock this down?

In the Chaos FAQ it says that models with wings are not Jump Infantry but only Move as Jump Infantry. Now in the Jump Infantry section of the rulebook it says that they take Dangerous Terrain tests if they begin or end their move in Difficult terrain. In the summary section however, in the little chart, it says Jump Infantry takes dangerous terrain tests when moving in difficult terrain, but regular Infantry does not (unless the terrain is specified to be dangerous). The question is, do only models that are listed as Jump Infantry take Dangerous terrain tests in this case or is it anything that moves like Jump Infantry since the dangerous terrain test is when the unit moves?

**Lordhat**

If Necron Scarabs can turbo-boost, then yes, winged IC's have to take dangerous terrain tests for ending their movement in difficult terrain.

**Stelek**

The whole reason they said they are not jump infantry is so Demon Princes (and lords and sorcs too) with Wings do not take difficult terrain tests when moving.

MOST people model their DP with wings, and lords/sorcs with jump packs.

They didn't FAQ it for nothing.

**Cadian16th**

Sorry Stelek, could you clarify how you're interpreting this?

And Lord, so you're reading it as how they move and not how they're classified that determines what tests they take? According to the FAQ Lords with wings are still Infantry so (according to the summary again) should not have to take dangerous terrain tests.

**Stelek**

Q: Does taking 'Wings' classify a model as jump infantry?

A: No. It simply allows the model to move like jump infantry. Note that the model must actually be converted to have a pair of wings rather than a jump pack.

Why is this a question?

MOVE AS not COUNTS AS.

**Lordhat**

No, but I've been told repeatedly that if something (Scrabs) moves as something else (jetbikes) then it gets all the assocated effects (turbo-boost). So if winged creatures move as jump infantry, then they should take the associated effects.

**Stelek**

Actually, that's nice someone "told you" that, but it isn't in the rules.

The scarabs have been FAQ'd so they DO take those tests.

See, GW does indeed make rules that must say you can do something before you can do it.

Non-permissive ruleset.

**solkan**

I assume that the reason they say "move as Jump Infantry" instead of "count as Jump Infantry" is so that people don't try to argue that flying demon princes aren't monstrous creatures because they're jump infantry.

Did you move as a jump infantry and land in (or start in) difficult terrain? If so, take your dangeour terrain test.

**Stelek**

Actually the Jump Infantry rules are the only ones that make you take dangerous terrain.

The real reason Demon Princes are not allowed to be Jump infantry is because then they can DEEP STRIKE.

Gee. A deep striking demon prince. Well I vote we let the big guy deep strike, flame us, and then own our face in CC the next turn after flaming another unit dead.

Who's all for bad rules??

**Kap N' Krunch**

2 things:

1. The Chaos Codex under wargear does state that models with "wings" can deepstrike... so yeah, Stelek you can deep strike those mean Demon Princes. (It's not that bad... I've played against it).

2. I believe that they FAQed this for another reason as well... a winged lord or sorc can now ride in a transport. This can be used well for a rino rushing chaos army that could use a bit more movement on their HQ. (once again, it's not that bad, and it gives Chaos a bit more mobility, something that they are lacking, especially with the str 4 defensive weapon change - Havoc launchers and Heavy bolters now can't move, and Chaos doesn't have good bikes or land speeders either).

But as far as the original question... I totally agree with Lord, if something moves like a jetpack, it takes the pros and the cons. Just roll you're DT tests and stay away from 1s. Also, don't forget that you can take an invol and any ICs get skilled rider.

**Lormax**

Kap N' Krunch wrote:and any ICs get skilled rider.

They do? I thought they only received move through cover? I don't have the BRB handy to double check

**yakface**

The rules for moving Jump Infantry state that they take dangerous terrain tests when they begin or end their move in difficult terrain.

Any model that moves as Jump Infantry would therefore be bound by this rule just as they get the ability to move 12" and ignore terrain as they move.

There is no logical way to separate that rule out of the rest of the Jump Infantry rules for movement.

P1. The rules for moving jump infantry dictate that if the Jump Infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it takes a dangerous terrain test.
P2. CSM models with wings move as Jump Infantry.

C. CSM models with wings must take a dangerous terrain test if they begin or end their move in difficult terrain.

**Stelek**

So yak you think DP can deep strike? I find the whole concept of 'moves as but is NOT jump infantry' being clearly stated in the FAQ overrides all other logic one might use.

**Antonin**

Stelek - as noted above, in the Chaos Codex, yes, DP can deepstrike.

Also, please tell us how something can move as jump infantry, but is not affected by movement rules that affect jump infantry? i.e. while moving, the model with wings moves as jump infantry, so is affected by the rules for moving as a jump packer.

**MinMax**

Stelek wrote:So yak you think DP can deep strike?

Probably because it's in the Codex.

"In addition, models that have wings can be dropped from low-flying gunships. They can be kept in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules."

**Kap N' Krunch**

Thanks MinMax, I didn't have the Codex on me to direct quote.

**Stelek**

I admit I was too lazy to look.

I also care very little at this point.

I'll play it RAW, you play it RAI.

**JohnHwangDD**

They are Infantry, except if they choose to move as Jump Infantry (at which point, they would count as Jump Infantry for the duration of such movement).

**Lordhat**

Stelek, I tried to make the exact same point about Scarabs and Turbo-boosting last edition. The point was unanimously rejected by everybody who decided to debate it with me.

And now this edition, they've been FAQ'd to be able to turbo-boost.

**Stelek**

Lordhat wrote:Stelek, I tried to make the exact same point about Scarabs and Turbo-boosting last edition. The point was unanimously rejected by everybody who decided to debate it with me.

And now this edition, they've been FAQ'd to be able to turbo-boost.

Yeah it's alot of pissing up a tree sometimes.

**yamato**

I have to agree with Stelek here.

the RAW + FAQ would allow you to jump your sorcerer or DP in or out of difficult terrain w/o having to take the dangerous test.

I believe the intent of the FAQ was to avoid problems around a DP's monsterous creature status comming into question if it were equiped with wings. You can't say that it's classified as jump infantry as it would then have to follow all the jump infantry rules for not only movement, but number of weapons that can be shot, the ability to ignore armor saves, etc. Once again, the poor wording in the BRB, and the lack of detail in the FAQ combine to leave us with a stupid rule.

If the BRB had wording like "any model that moves as jump infantry that either begins or ends its movement in difficult terrain must take a dangerous terrain test," well that would solve things, but sadly the RAW states "if a jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test."

In a perfect world, we would have the "any model that moves as" rule, the FAQ, and a exception for MC that says that they never have to take dangerous terrain test for moving through difficult terrain. That way the sorcerer would have to take the test, and the DP would not (like their move-through-cover rule: they are so big and powerful that "they simply bash their way through trees and ruins").

Until then, claim your cheese!

**Burning Star IV**

Stelek wrote:
Lordhat wrote:Stelek, I tried to make the exact same point about Scarabs and Turbo-boosting last edition. The point was unanimously rejected by everybody who decided to debate it with me.

And now this edition, they've been FAQ'd to be able to turbo-boost.

Yeah it's alot of pissing up a tree sometimes.

Forums: 3
Stelek: 5000

We're making up some ground here!

**yakface**

yamato wrote:

If the BRB had wording like "any model that moves as jump infantry that either begins or ends its movement in difficult terrain must take a dangerous terrain test," well that would solve things, but sadly the RAW states "if a jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test."

In a perfect world, we would have the "any model that moves as" rule, the FAQ, and a exception for MC that says that they never have to take dangerous terrain test for moving through difficult terrain. That way the sorcerer would have to take the test, and the DP would not (like their move-through-cover rule: they are so big and powerful that "they simply bash their way through trees and ruins").

Until then, claim your cheese!

I call shenanigans.

The Jump Infantry movement rules also say:

"Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase."

You can't say that the winged model counts as Jump Infantry for the parts of the rule you choose to apply them to and then ignore the parts you don't like.

The fact is, models with wings move as jump infantry, so following normal basic logic they utilize all the rules for movement that apply to Jump Infantry.

So if a rule refers to a "Jump Infantry" model and that rule involves the movement of said model (including penalties) then it would indeed apply to a winged model as well.

There is absolutely no logical basis to claim that a winged model may move 12" but doesn't take dangerous terrain tests when landing in terrain. They are all rules for how Jump Infantry moves, which the winged model follows.

**kirsanth**

Stelek wrote:I admit I was too lazy to look.

I also care very little at this point.

I'll play it RAW, you play it RAI.

Wow I should use that RAW for leaping and winged Tyranids as well.

I wish sarcasm came across in text better.

Plenty of things have options like this, and the rules back Yak.
Again.

shrug

**Stelek**

Sigh, if you make me bust out the rules I will do so.

Please note the models in question are INFANTRY MODELS.

Right, on to the rules...

P52: "However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or engs its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test."

Sorry, WHAT jump infantry model? I'm infantry that "moves as" but "is not".

Have a nice day.

**yamato**

again, I'm sure the intent is that they should take the test, but I agree that the rules specifically say a "jump infantry model", and not a "model that moves like jump infantry" which the CSM 5e FAQ was quite precise in labeling models with wings to only move as jump infantry, but not count as jump infantry.

Yak - I agree that they intent is there, but the words on the pages just don't add up to that.

**Datajax**

What about pg 85 of Codex: CSM

"Models equiped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."

This rule clearly state a model with wing, regardless of what it counts as, uses the EXACT same rules as jump infantry. Including what tests to make when.

Off topic, on the same page they've included a picture of a "winged jump pack". If the pictures were included for equipment clarity, this is a failure. I still don't know what wings or a jump pack looks like, RAW.

**yakface**

Stelek wrote:Sigh, if you make me bust out the rules I will do so.

Please note the models in question are INFANTRY MODELS.

Right, on to the rules...

P52: "However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or engs its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test."

Sorry, WHAT jump infantry model? I'm infantry that "moves as" but "is not".

Have a nice day.

I'll refer you back to my original argument which you have not refuted:

P1. The rules for moving jump infantry dictate that if the Jump Infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it takes a dangerous terrain test.
P2. CSM models with wings move as Jump Infantry.

C. CSM models with wings must take a dangerous terrain test if they begin or end their move in difficult terrain.

**yakface**

yamato wrote:again, I'm sure the intent is that they should take the test, but I agree that the rules specifically say a "jump infantry model", and not a "model that moves like jump infantry" which the CSM 5e FAQ was quite precise in labeling models with wings to only move as jump infantry, but not count as jump infantry.

Yak - I agree that they intent is there, but the words on the pages just don't add up to that.

And how exactly do jump infantry move?

Please describe precisely where the line exists between the rules that Jump Infantry follow for movement and the rules that models that move as Jump Infantry follow.

We only have one set of rules: How Jump Infantry move. Those rules use the term "Jump Infantry" and "Jump Infantry Model" to tell you how to play the game.

Are you also trying to claim that this rule:

"Jump Infantry models may not end their move on top of other models or impassable terrain, except that they can end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it."

Does not apply either because it uses the term "Jump Infantry Model"?

I'm sorry but you are just flat-out wrong from a RAW perspective.

If there are *any* rules that dictate how Jump Infantry move (good or bad), then they are followed by models who move as Jump Infantry.

**insaniak**

Stelek wrote:P52: "However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or engs its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test."

Sorry, WHAT jump infantry model? I'm infantry that "moves as" but "is not".

Right. You're moving as Jump Infantry... and therefore a rule that applies to moving jump infantry applies to you.