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olympia wrote:I own one codex--the one for the army I play. It seems that I'm always get f#@$% in games because I don't know other codices. After games I will browse a store copy of my opponent's codex and find out things that were abused (e.g. the 'Nid player that stretched synapse range). Sometimes this is my opponent cheating outright; other times it appears to have been an honest mistake. Back in the day I purchased the book for WHFB, Warhammer Armies. This attractive text had the lists and rules for EVERY WHFB army between its covers. Now in these trying times when people are scrimping and saving and living on the clippings of tin so that they can buy a $30 Big Mek with a Shokk Attack Gun who can afford to drop $400 for a library of codices? Prior to 5th edition my only experience with 40k was Rogue Trader so I suppose as I play more games and read more internet fora I'll get familiar with other army lists. It is rather frustrating.

I own every codex and have a hard copy of all FAQs. This is a must for tournament play... otherwise bend over the table and hold on tight.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:

olympia wrote:I own one codex--the one for the army I play. It seems that I'm always get f#@$% in games because I don't know other codices. After games I will browse a store copy of my opponent's codex and find out things that were abused (e.g. the 'Nid player that stretched synapse range). Sometimes this is my opponent cheating outright; other times it appears to have been an honest mistake. Back in the day I purchased the book for WHFB, Warhammer Armies. This attractive text had the lists and rules for EVERY WHFB army between its covers. Now in these trying times when people are scrimping and saving and living on the clippings of tin so that they can buy a $30 Big Mek with a Shokk Attack Gun who can afford to drop $400 for a library of codices? Prior to 5th edition my only experience with 40k was Rogue Trader so I suppose as I play more games and read more internet fora I'll get familiar with other army lists. It is rather frustrating.

I own every codex and have a hard copy of all FAQs. This is a must for tournament play... otherwise bend over the table and hold on tight.

G

Indeed. Although I would say that by spending the lettuce on all those codices you've already been bent over by GW.
edit: I do not download codices. However, I do not buy them either. I just wander about it ignorance of all the special rules and let my opponents take advantage of me. When is comes to codices GW can itself.

If you just play for fun then it's no big deal really. However if you find yourself to be a competitive player then all it takes is one bent rule to ruin your day unfortunately.

G

Between buying them when they came out and grabbing used copies for cheap i've collected them all. I've been playing for about 5 years, and almost all the books have cycled by now.

OP asked for advice and he got it, I'm sure he'll make his own decision.
Its obvious we all share different opinions on this and its also obvious that were not going to change them much.
So whats the point in all this arguing over the name your going to give to ''reading rules of a game for free when they are supposed to cost money''
The bottom line is this.
The people who d/l the rules for free aren't going to stop.
The people who disagree with d/ling rules for free cant do anything to stop them. (and wont in many cases)
I have an opinion on this but guess what...I'll keep it to myself since its not going to make a difference to ANYTHING.

Well, there's the argument that moral truths are universal, and thus discussion can be useful in determining them. Even if morality is simply a community standard, then finding out what the community thinks is even more useful.

But I think I agree with your larger point, however it's probably safe to say that any thread that goes beyond a page or two has probably "drifted" away from it's original topic.

Remember that the 4th edition Chaos codex had at least three revisions... for instance they kept switching back and forth on the wording regarding Doom Siren or whatever it was that let you always strike 1st... I have all four of them.

G

Morality differs from person to person. Unfortunately morale truths are not universal. Don't believe me? Well some people are real bad.... some are real good and then there is the whole spectrum of people who run between the two.
My point is this 'discussion' is mainly sided by people who have clearly made up their mind,
The replies have ceased to fall under the heading of ''impartial advice''
Which in my opinion, is the only way to answer a question helpfully.
D

FIGHT_0R_FLIGHT wrote:Morality differs from person to person. Unfortunately morale truths are not universal. Don't believe me? Well some people are real bad.... some are real good and then there is the whole spectrum of people who run between the two.
My point is this 'discussion' is mainly sided by people who have clearly made up their mind,
The replies have ceased to fall under the heading of ''impartial advice''
Which in my opinion, is the only way to answer a question helpfully.
D

Hehe, well, I'm going to let this one go, there's no sense in getting in a ideological spitwad fight over this.

However, I think it's at least somewhat amusing that you can casually dismiss the possibility of universal moral truths while claiming that the only helpful way to answer a question is with "impartial advice." I understand that impartiality is not completely the same as objectivity, but you come dangerously close to suggesting that there are some norms outside of morality. I think you meant that the advice is no longer meant to help, but instead are advocating a position, but you could have made it clearer.

Well I can't equate morality with opinions on how to answer a question posted about war gaming.
His question was not ''is it morale to take codex's off the internet''
Morality differs from person to person.
Answering a simple question helpfully about something not entirely important in the scheme of things should be common sense.
I think hes got all the help he needed + some.

There is an old fable...
"a poor man was traveling and stoped to eat his bread next to a cook. The poor man would inhale the smell of the roasting chicken while eating his stale bread. The cook came up to him and demanded payment for his smelling the chicken. The local judge asked the poor man if he had a coin. The poor man relucantly held it out. "Drop it on the ground." The coin rang as it struck the road. "Pick up the coin, your debt has been paid." The cook was upset and asked the judge, "How is it that his debt is paid?!" The judge replied, " You charged him for the smell of your food, and he paid you with the sound of his coin."

Think about it...

FIGHT_0R_FLIGHT wrote:Well I can't equate morality with opinions on how to answer a question posted about war gaming.
His question was not ''is it morale to take codex's off the internet''
Morality differs from person to person.
Answering a simple question helpfully about something not entirely important in the scheme of things should be common sense.
I think hes got all the help he needed + some.

So, there can be no universal moral truths, but there is common sense?

Interesting.

OK
final words I promise.
Morality is a complex issue as shown by the plethora of responses and lines of argument.
Answering a question about something as silly as ''should I buy more codex'' is not. Morality doesn't even come into it for me.
This is all I am saying.

FIGHT_0R_FLIGHT wrote:OK
final words I promise.
Morality is a complex issue as shown by the plethora of responses and lines of argument.
Answering a question about something as silly as ''should I buy more codex'' is not. Morality doesn't even come into it for me.
This is all I am saying.

No, I see what you are saying. Answering the OPs question should be simple, because we know how to answer questions. We should answer questions in a way that is helpful, doesn't cause strife with other posters, and furthers the discussion. It's good to have, I don't know, some sort of code of conduct in times like this. A compilation of generally agreed mores, or certain rules that we can agree should be upheld by the community. Some way of knowing how to behave, and what is right and what is wrong. Almost like, i dunno, a moral code to live by....

Well it should be easy to answer OP's question ....but of course that is just my opinion on the matter. Which differs from many here who decided to get into a moral debate instead of giving him the info. So there is no unified moral/commonsense theory on these forums as there is not universally. Some people are different some aren't........duh
Equating common sense to morality is only relevant in one way....they are both governed by you..the interpreter. Commonsense to me concerns intellect and morality concerns emotion. One is a much deeper topic and is subject to far greater scrutiny from others.
I'm just saying give him the info and let him decide....there is nothing left to discuss ITT after that.
Why are we still typing?

FIGHT_0R_FLIGHT wrote:Well it should be easy to answer OP's question ....but of course that is just my opinion on the matter. Which differs from many here who decided to get into a moral debate instead of giving him the info. So there is no unified moral/commonsense theory on these forums as there is not universally. Some people are different some aren't........duh
Equating common sense to morality is only relevant in one way....they are both governed by you..the interpreter. Commonsense to me concerns intellect and morality concerns emotion. One is a much deeper topic and is subject to far greater scrutiny from others.
I'm just saying give him the info and let him decide....there is nothing left to discuss ITT after that.
Why are we still typing?

You've just been explaining some things to me. Things like:
1) there is no unified moral/commonsense theory on these forums
2) Everybody's moral code is different and highly personal
3) You think that there is a proper way in which to behave that you think I should follow as well.

Polonius wrote:

FIGHT_0R_FLIGHT wrote:OK
final words I promise.
Morality is a complex issue as shown by the plethora of responses and lines of argument.
Answering a question about something as silly as ''should I buy more codex'' is not. Morality doesn't even come into it for me.
This is all I am saying.

No, I see what you are saying. Answering the OPs question should be simple, because we know how to answer questions. We should answer questions in a way that is helpful, doesn't cause strife with other posters, and furthers the discussion. It's good to have, I don't know, some sort of code of conduct in times like this. A compilation of generally agreed mores, or certain rules that we can agree should be upheld by the community. Some way of knowing how to behave, and what is right and what is wrong. Almost like, i dunno, a moral code to live by....

Simple answer to OP question: YES!

To stay competative you must know the rules diffrent armies use, you cant in the middle of a match ask to see the opponents codex and read it from start to finish. You also need to know how each army works, weaknesses and strengths and the best ways for your army to handle them.

You don't NEED to OWN all of the codices.
You do however, need access to them if you want to know your enemies more thoroughly. This doesn't mean that you have to DL them (although some countries are less stringent on making you buy the dead-tree version, having them available for free DL).

I am in a games club. We share our codices around if clubmates wish to read them. My armylists are all in .xls format on my computer (I'm talking the entire contents of my armies as WYSIWYG) so I don't need the codex to compile a roster, but I also own Army Builder.

We run an annual tourney. We have three refs on hand during the tourney, and each of us needs to know how ALL the armies work. Amongst us, we have all of the codices covered.

chromedog wrote:You don't NEED to OWN all of the codices.
You do however, need access to them if you want to know your enemies more thoroughly. This doesn't mean that you have to DL them (although some countries are less stringent on making you buy the dead-tree version, having them available for free DL).

I am in a games club. We share our codices around if clubmates wish to read them. My armylists are all in .xls format on my computer (I'm talking the entire contents of my armies as WYSIWYG) so I don't need the codex to compile a roster, but I also own Army Builder.

We run an annual tourney. We have three refs on hand during the tourney, and each of us needs to know how ALL the armies work. Amongst us, we have all of the codices covered.

I think Chrome Dog sums it up nicely.

one quick comment on this statement and then back to your regularly scheduled programming...

JohnHwangDD wrote:
You see an interesting building, and have your friend take a stand on the roadside and you snap a picture. If you both are on public property, using your personal camera, and storing the image on your own server, does the building owner have the right to say you can't take the picture, print it, or put it on your website?

You can take the picture, put it on your computer, distribute to your friends, and have it on your website all you want (as long as you aren't generating income from ads/traffic on your site). If you are selling the picture for money in any fashion, yes, they do have a right to a percentage of the income if they wish to contest it. Politcal figures are exempt from this as are many public figures (ie, you can publish pics of public people (political leaders, movie stars, ect) without their consent and without paying them). It's a fuzzy line on a lot of things and mostly depends on how much people/buisinesses look out for themselves.

Kilkrazy wrote:Do any users have experiences where they feel they lost a game because of lack of knowledge of an enemy army's codex?

Not games where the other guy cheated, but games where the other guy's army had some unexpected special rule which made a big difference to the result.

Ard boyz semi's - I won the game, but I did get dicked on the changeling rule. I even knew better considering I had just played a demon army the week before. It made a huge difference in the first couple rounds and instead of a minot victory I would have gotten a major victory instead. But since I had gotten a draw out of the first 2 games I knew I wasn't in the running for 1,2, or 3rd anyway so I didn't make a big deal about it. He claimed that the changeling affected every unit nearby instead of just one.

First game of the semi's the csm player insisted that his force weapon insta-killed multiple models with no inv save allowed at all. I contested that one and showed him the rulebook which said what the actual rules were.

I decided to view it as youthful enthusiaisum instead of blatent cheating just to keep a fun time going.

All my fun little jokes with Fight or Flight (I was just messing with you, man) aside, I think that any discussion of morality could be spun off into it's own thread. I would start one, but I'm trying to decide if there's any value to trying to better articulate my position or if I should just give it up as a lost cause. If anybody starts one, i'll jump in, or PM me and I'll see if I can write a bit of an essay supporting my argument to start one myself.

budro wrote:one quick comment on this statement and then back to your regularly scheduled programming...

JohnHwangDD wrote:
You see an interesting building, and have your friend take a stand on the roadside and you snap a picture. If you both are on public property, using your personal camera, and storing the image on your own server, does the building owner have the right to say you can't take the picture, print it, or put it on your website?

You can take the picture, put it on your computer, distribute to your friends, and have it on your website all you want (as long as you aren't generating income from ads/traffic on your site). If you are selling the picture for money in any fashion, yes, they do have a right to a percentage of the income if they wish to contest it. Politcal figures are exempt from this as are many public figures (ie, you can publish pics of public people (political leaders, movie stars, ect) without their consent and without paying them). It's a fuzzy line on a lot of things and mostly depends on how much people/buisinesses look out for themselves.

Why should they have control of my picture? It's my picture of my friend on my server paid for out of my bandwidth. If I'm generating add revenue from traffic, then they should pay me for the publicity I provide. And as their building is clearly visible from the public roadside, how is that not a "public" exception?

The only fuzziness is who can pay more for the lawyer. With enough lawyers, you can get a ruling that black is white, and downloading a 99-cent MP3 carries statutory damages in the thousands based on mass publishing for sale.

Frazzled wrote:

two_heads_talking wrote:

Here you answered it yourself.

want to sell the first distribution

I hate it when I do that..

captain.gordino wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:There's no way I'm going to buy all the codexes. They go out of date too frequently.

Neither am I. I bought the one I needed for my army, and then I sailed down to a lovely little bay I know and asked the buccaneers there if they had the other ones for me. And since there are 22 million people who visit the same bay, someone there had all of them for me.

that is a nice bay to visit.

Note: 22M visits out of a half-billion people on the intarwebz isn't a lot...

edit deleted

Just buy codexes instead of WD, that way you actually get something useful and don't have to pay for anyhting involving Lord of the Rings.

Olympia, Kantor has an Iron halo that gives a 4+ inv. Ther problem is that the halo rules are not in the wargear page but in the chapter master page (52) nice and simple for a qucik look up isn´t it?

M.

Without addressing the piracy topic (as I mentioned in another thread, I'm an IP attorney, I think my view can be guessed), I have to admit to being a compulsive buyer of Codices.

First, because knowing your opponents' rules let's you catch them in "mistakes" of all sorts, but second because I just like knowing what's out there. How do folks decide on an army without owning/being familiar with a number of Codices?

Of course, sadly, having a lot of codices leads to the secondary compulsion to have an army to match them... sigh.