Purchase all codices or get hosed

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**H.B.M.C.**

chromedog wrote:As to the commandments, I'm not big into fantasy, so there are a few books I've not read, yon christian bible being one of them.

Let's not go down this road, ey?

BYE

**H.B.M.C.**

JohnHwangDD wrote:I completely agree. Your post is chock full of dumb.

Hey Deadshane - don't quote me 'cause I don't want him to see this - but thanks for starting him up. Without you we wouldn't've got that wonderful example of 3rd grade rebuttal. I 'spose his encore will be 'I know you are, I said you are but what am I?'. Excellent work there.

BYE

**Vaktathi**

Yes. Thats right. It is always morally correct to simpy steal what you don't want to pay for.

Is downloading codices deeply immoral, so as to justify horrible punishment? No, it is not. But you are taking the ideas and work of somebody else, and using it for your own betterment. That is stealing, even if intangible. It might not hurt GW, as you point out, but it might.

To be fair, copyright infringement via piracy through downloads is *not* theft. Theft physically removes property from the original owner, piracy makes a copy of the original item, leaving the owner no worse off than they were before (they still have their property), merely potentially not as well off as they would have been had you purchased the item (assuming you would actually have spent money on it in the first place, not a solid assumption at all in most cases). While it's not as morally upstanding as honestly buying a copy and contributing to those who helped create the product for you, its not theft either, and its disingenuous to label it as such.

sorry, that's just a pet peeve with me. There's a difference between *theft* and *infringement*. One is like sneaking around on your neighbors back yard at night to use their pool with your girlfriend, the other is like going back there to steal pool equipment. Trespass is what we call the first (Infringement) while the other is theft (and trespass). You'll notice that Trespass in treated as a far lesser crime for a reason.

That said, back to the OP's question, its really easy to get the books cheap if you really want them. You can get them online at discounts, off Ebay, etc. I have never paid full retail price for any hardcopy codex I own, even the new ones.

**The Dreadnote**

Stealing codices from the internet is a victimless crime.

**Kilkrazy**

Mod In:

We are getting off the topic here.

Copyright is a contentious issue. Thank you for keeping the argument fairly civil so far, however it's best we drop it and return to the subject in hand.

If people want to talk about copyright and IP issues the Off Topic forum is probably the best place to do it.

Mod Out:

Do any users have experiences where they feel they lost a game because of lack of knowledge of an enemy army's codex?

Not games where the other guy cheated, but games where the other guy's army had some unexpected special rule which made a big difference to the result.

**Deadshane1**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Again, "stealing" implies *taking* a *thing*. The word "stealing" simply does not apply when you're talking about information or concepts / ideas.

What you are trying to do is say that unauthorized copying is the same as stealing.

It is NOT.

That is is a fallacy perpetuated by a host of anti-consumer, anti-public groups such as the RIAA. The very fact that you choose to say these sorts of things this way is testament to their success at framing the discussion.

In theory, copyright exists to provide some sort of balance between the rights of the creator and the rights of the public at large. Over the past few decades, corporations have perverted the balance such that the public no longer has any interest or voice in things. However, there is an equally compelling argument that facts, data, numbers and statistics cannot be copyrighted, and that any copyright only exists at the whim of the public choosing to grant it. That is, copyright is a right granted by others, rather than some sort of absolute.

Now I'm not arguing that people should copy things willy-nilly. Nor would I argue that creators lack any rights.

But I don't believe that they deserve carte blanche or absolute rights as far as many publishers seem to think they have. Particularly as many of these publishers seem to think they can trample over consumer protection and consumer rights willy-nilly. So from a moral standpoint, the more extreme the publisher, the less I am willing to honor their copyright.

Except your analogy fails because we have the concept of criminal trespass...

Here's a counter-example for you to think about:

You see an interesting building, and have your friend take a stand on the roadside and you snap a picture. If you both are on public property, using your personal camera, and storing the image on your own server, does the building owner have the right to say you can't take the picture, print it, or put it on your website?

The RIAA would say no to all of the above, unless you requsted permission and paid a picture-taking fee, and then paid royalties for each time you opened your photo album, or had someone view your web page.

Common sense would say yes, it's your picture and you can do as you please with it...

This sounds curiously like the explanations of the inmates I supervise in the jail on a day to day basis talking about why they're wrongfully locked up.

"Technically, I didnt steal the money, my friend I was with stole it and he gave me some. I should'nt be locked up for stealing."

Do something obviously wrong, word-play it, and expect that to be a defence. Nice try, 'A' for effort.

....by the way, Criminal Trespass doesnt have anything to do with what we're talking about. Criminal trespass is an entirely different offense.

In my case, I'm obtaining additional / duplicative / redundant digital copies of things that I've already paid for.

Obviously, we're not talking about backing up previously purchased material here. We're talking about obtaining information W/O having to pay 100's of dollars for it, specifically, codexes that you dont plan on building armies for. Please stay on subject.

No, it isn't. It's unauthorized *copying*.

Right, and I know prolly like 30 or so inmates that are in jail for "borrowing" stuff. Guess what, they're still in jail, just like as if they "stole" it, but we all know they werent so "bad" as to go "steal" something dont we?

There *is* a difference, and if you're not able to understand the fundamental difference between a physical good that can only be in the possession of a single individual, vs information that can be present anywhere, that's your problem.

At least I dont have a problem with what is fundamentaly right/wrong. We dont appear to be able to say the same for you.

**Deadshane1**

Sorry Kill, I was posting while you were modding....

On subject....I actually DO happen to pick up every codex. I'm currently running two tournement ready armies with two more in the wings for 40k.

I find that owning the codexes and having them close at hand at all times makes me familiar with all armies' capabilities to some extent and I have few times that an armies special rules actually "surprise" me.

It's all about knowing your enemy.

**H.B.M.C.**

On topic again, I tend to buy most of the Codices. Sure, I downloaded the new Marine Codex - twice in fact, the original 'PDF of photos' version and then the latter scanned version - but I then went and bought the Codex anyway.

I've kept the PDF version though as it's nice having something I can quickly zoom through when I don't have the book handy - same reason I download most of the Codices I own.

Hell I even bought that travesty they're calling a 'Chaos' Codex at the moment. Granted, I didn't set out to buy it, it came in the army box with a big warning sticker that said "Contains Chaos Codex - keep out of reach of small children and people with an IQ greater than 60".

I'd burn it but I'm a hoarder...

BYE

**Kilkrazy**

The kind of thing I have in mind is Lash of Submission or some of the more esoteric Eldar magic powers. They are non-obvious and would come as a surprise to a player who was not aware of them.

That said, I suppose Tau Markerlights might be as surprising to an Ork player.

**H.B.M.C.**

Uhh... Killkrazy? Have you got multiple windows open or something, 'cause I don't we were meant to see that.

BYE

**olympia**

Kilkrazy wrote:

Do any users have experiences where they feel they lost a game because of lack of knowledge of an enemy army's codex?.

Absolutely! Against a 'Nid player I did not know that the synpase creatures or psilsomes or whatever-the-f@#% they were could squad deploy. So when snikrot arrived I savaged one of these things thinking I was getting KPs for a HQ---doh! This was my 4th game in 5th edition and it was at a tournament so I was just asking for trouble I suppose.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Never lost a game due to not knowing the rules to be honest. However, mainly playing Fantasy, you soon learn to spot the 'too good to be true' charges. 9 times out of 10 it's not your opponent being a spazz, but some horrific ability about to cave in your centre!

**Balance**

Polonius wrote:
Here's the quick rundown on why IP is a moral issue. If your time is a precious commodity, I encourage you to skip this post. IP is a result of creativity and work. When you buy a book or a CD or attend a movie you are not solely paying for the physical costs of printing, producing, or showing the product, but to compensate the person that created the work for their efforts. This is two fold: one is to protect a person's work, allowing them to profit off of their thought by controlling who can sell it. The other is based on the idea that all creative work includes an almost mystical transferrance of part of that person's mind/soul into their work. Because of this, only the author (or his agents) can sell the work. To enjoy his labor, while not paying him for the privilege is to steal his work and effort. Essentially, to download the codex is to enjoy the benefit of GW's brilliance without in any way recognizing them (notably through money). To assume that IP law is simply financial ignores the fact that much of morality is purely financial. Is it immoral to steal a rich person's iPod because you want one? Of course. Nor can something only be immoral if there is a tangible hurt. Is it immoral to break into a rich person's house to watch their TV because you don't have HBO? Of course.

Well said!

I won't argue that there are parts of the IP system that are dated and/or broken. This varies by country, of course, but most were written before it was easy to distribute things electronically.

It would be nice if GW did a PDF containing bare-bones stats, rules, and errata that was updated but I fear that it wouldn't do well if they did, as their record for stickign with long-term ideas is dismal. I'd probably be willing to pay $10/year for such a thing if I was playing 40k regularly.

Another option for those who have a large group of friends who all play would be to start a club (although a club is, I'd guess, a nonexistent ephemeral organization much like a corporation, so that option may be out) and keep a library of Codexes and other books for group use.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

To those who habitually download copies of Codecies and Armybooks they don't already own, or intend to, may I ask what makes you so special that you feel you are entitled to something for nothing?

After all, most people tend to pay for something they wish to read (unless it's a free paper) and if the asking price is not to their liking, they will go without. Same goes for pretty much everything in life. Want it, but don't like the price? Shop around for a bargain, or leave it. Don't just take it.

**stonefox**

I take it you've never borrowed a book or asked someone to scan/xerox pages of a book for your use?

Unless someone's bringing their laptop to the table and looking up the rules there, electronic versions are used for leisurely reading (like borrowing a book) or for specific rules pages (the scan/xerox). If it's anything like the videogame market at all, I seem to recall from somewhere that industry giants acknowledge that people who downloaded pirated games were most likely never intending to purchase the game in the first place - either renting it or borrowing from a friend if not from an online source.

**malfred**

Let's keep the question to "How do you learn to deal with your lack of knowledge?"

For me, I take the rules interpretations at face value for the sake of the game at hand. I don't
play in very many tournaments, so I often don't have to deal with someone cheating to gain
a competitive advantage. Based on my opponent, I decide whether or not to base my knowledge
of the army off of what he said during the game.

A good experience with a veteran will make me the most likely to take their word and incorporate
the knowledge. If it's a bad player, or one known to fudge the rules, then I make sure to call him
out on bum rules explanations (especially if I learned better from the knowledgeable veteran), or
I at least learn how to argue the rule on my own for another time.

Since my knowledge base is very person to person, I get hosed routinely since I don't play
enough games of any system to get a solid foundation, but I don't sweat it. I know that if I
wanted to up my game I'd just have to play more games, read more material.

Post more on Dakka.

The usual.

**Vaktathi**

Deadshane1 wrote:
....by the way, Criminal Trespass doesnt have anything to do with what we're talking about. Criminal trespass is an entirely different offense.

I believe that was the point, to differentiate theft (which piracy is not) from trespass (which piracy *is*). Walking into a store and taking a codex without paying is theft, downloading one is not, as there is no loss of property, there is instead a breach in the right to use said property, hence trespass.

Not trying to argue the morality, just trying to clear up the difference between theft and infringement, two very different property related crimes.

**JohnHwangDD**

@KK: I just need to make a couple quick points and I'm done.

Deadshane1 wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Again, "stealing" implies *taking* a *thing*. The word "stealing" simply does not apply when you're talking about information or concepts / ideas.

In my case, I'm obtaining additional / duplicative / redundant digital copies of things that I've already paid for.

Obviously, we're not talking about backing up previously purchased material here.

Maybe you're not, but I am, so I think you can stop calling me a "thief". Just because you deal with convicted criminals on a day-to-day basis, that doesn't mean everyone is a criminal.

At least I dont have a problem with what is fundamentaly right/wrong.

Interesting rebuttal, because the fact the debate exists and continues means that there is clear disagreement on what is actually right / wrong. Therefore, to present this as "fundamental" grossly overstates the issue. Particularly in light of massive continued IP infringement of all types internationally.

If this is so obviously wrong and immoral, and actually morally equivalent to actual theft, and that is indicative of the actual moral compass of an IP infringer, then necessarily you'd have to conclude that college campuses would be overrife with shoplifting, trespass, burglarly, etc.. But that just isn't the case. People distinguish clearly between actual theft of physical goods, trespass of physical spaces, burglary of physical property.

We dont appear to be able to say the same for you.

At least I don't need to take ad hominem shots at you to make my case. All I saw in your post was a mix of ad hominem shots and talk about convicted criminals, that had nothing to do with anything.

Next time, argue better.

**JohnHwangDD**

Kilkrazy wrote:Do any users have experiences where they feel they lost a game because of lack of knowledge of an enemy army's codex?

Not games where the other guy cheated, but games where the other guy's army had some unexpected special rule which made a big difference to the result.

I've been surprised and not liked it. But I can't recall those surprises actually changing a game result in a huge way, at least, not in 40k. 40k tends to carry momentum like a steamroller, so those surprises generally mean that you win more or lose less.

It's not like, say, Magic, in which you can fundamentally change the flow of game with a single card.

**Frazzled**

Modquisition on:
Its been requested that we give this thread a temporary break as its gone off the handle into a morality tales vs. legal, which will send it to the OT.

Will re-open after a short break. If there is an issue with this request, please PM Yakface or the Mods and we'll move it to OT.

Modquisition off.

**Lanrak**

HI all.
I will adress the OP question.
Most of the other game systems we play, have ALL the army lists-force composition lists in the back of the rule books.
(Usualy between 12 and 40 odd army lists too!)
And they tend to be better balanced than 40k because ALL the armies are extensivley playtested against each other.

But 40k is a marketing devise first and formost.
So they sell codexes to pimp the latest minature releseases , and the GW game devs do their best with limited time and resources.

Are the Codexes fully functional and error free , when you pay FULL price for them?
Or are they full of ambiguios rules ,and typoes?
I own the codexes for my armies.(Purchased from my FLGS).

If someone thinks they have to resort to cheating to win a game of 40k, I pity them, its just SO sad!
Who takes a 'fun dice rolling game for ages 12 and up', that seriously ?

Not me matey!

TTFN
Lanrak.

**malfred**

Lanrak: what other games systems do you play?

**Lanrak**

Hi Malfred.
Non GW games I play regularly.

Fantasy.
Armies of Arcana,(Thane Games.)
(They are currently developing a scifi version of AoA, Xenocide , I think its called.)

Sci fi.
Dirt side II, Stargrunt II,Full Thrust (Ground Zero Games.)

Historicals.
Bodycount, Firefly , To the sound of the guns/Shako (Tabletop Games.)

GW games , (Epic , Blood Bowl, Dark future,Space Hulk, Necromundia,Mordhiem , 40k, WH.)

My FLGS group have been playing together for 20 years now,(Most saturdays!) and we have tried out lots of games.
(The club members have has over 40 different rule sets between us!Of the GW rule sets , the old boxed games and the SGs tend to be played more than WH or 40k.But that could just be us ! )

GW are in the buisness of selling minatures.
Its just a shame they prefer short term commercialism over , longterm quality development of product, and gamer support .IMO.
(Gamers buy most minatures. )

GW make up 100% of the GW hobby.But only about 20% of the wargaming hobby!

GW dont do anything much to inspire loyalty.IMO.I advise look around and see what else is available!

(Free rules and MUCH cheaper minis...)

Happy Gaming
Lanrak.

**two_heads_talking**

ShumaGorath wrote:

Yes. Thats right. It is always morally correct to simpy steal what you don't want to pay for.

As long as you buy the codexes for the armies you actually own and play I have no issue with it what so ever. But thats just me.

As long as you pay for the gas in the cars you onw, it's still ok to steal it to use in the lawnmower right? You only see it for 3 months out of the year.

**two_heads_talking**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Matt Varnish wrote:What kills me is that the now outdated Warger book was trying to put all item special rules all in one book. Too bad with the very next codex the book was obsolete.

People who bought that book go alongside the same people who bought the two (LOL!) GW interactive army list programs thinking that they'd actually keep them updated. In the modern parlance, these people are known as 'rubes'.

BYE

Damn, I'm a rube on 3 accounts then.. And I keep going back to the website, expecting to see a 5th edition update and nothing so far.. I still put teeth under my pillows too.. I'm still pissed at myself for thinking that Gw would actually support it's own Army List..

**Danny Internets**

two_heads_talking wrote:
As long as you pay for the gas in the cars you onw, it's still ok to steal it to use in the lawnmower right? You only see it for 3 months out of the year.

I don't think I could come up with a worse analogy than that if I tried. Viewing an electronic document does not consume any amount of finite resource like gasoline. That's not to legally (or morally) justify it, but if you're going to climb up on your high horse and attack someone's position at least put some thought into it.

**Polonius**

The IAL thing was not GW's finest hour. From what I heard it was a pretty decent program if you only needed one of the two sides. I can't believe that GW can't just farm the updates out to a fan group like Wolfslair does.

The Wargear book was poorly executed, but never really tried to be anything it wasn't.

**two_heads_talking**

Danny Internets wrote:
two_heads_talking wrote:
As long as you pay for the gas in the cars you onw, it's still ok to steal it to use in the lawnmower right? You only see it for 3 months out of the year.

I don't think I could come up with a worse analogy than that if I tried. Viewing an electronic document does not consume any amount of finite resource like gasoline. That's not to legally (or morally) justify it, but if you're going to climb up on your high horse and attack someone's position at least put some thought into it.

I used the dumbest analogy I could.. did it work? did it get a rise out of you? then it worked.. someone who gets that excited about an analogy needs some fresh air..

**two_heads_talking**

Polonius wrote:The IAL thing was not GW's finest hour. From what I heard it was a pretty decent program if you only needed one of the two sides. I can't believe that GW can't just farm the updates out to a fan group like Wolfslair does.

The Wargear book was poorly executed, but never really tried to be anything it wasn't.

From what I heard, only one guy was updating the IAL.. I just can't figure out why they started the IAl and then kinda forgot about it.. did they just want to sell the first distribution? Was it that bad, if so, when why not make it better?

**Frazzled**

two_heads_talking wrote:
Polonius wrote:The IAL thing was not GW's finest hour. From what I heard it was a pretty decent program if you only needed one of the two sides. I can't believe that GW can't just farm the updates out to a fan group like Wolfslair does.

The Wargear book was poorly executed, but never really tried to be anything it wasn't.

From what I heard, only one guy was updating the IAL.. I just can't figure out why they started the IAl and then kinda forgot about it.. did they just want to sell the first distribution? Was it that bad, if so, when why not make it better?

Here you answered it yourself.

want to sell the first distribution