Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I own one codex--the one for the army I play. It seems that I'm always get f#@$% in games because I don't know other codices. After games I will browse a store copy of my opponent's codex and find out things that were abused (e.g. the 'Nid player that stretched synapse range). Sometimes this is my opponent cheating outright; other times it appears to have been an honest mistake. Back in the day I purchased the book for WHFB, Warhammer Armies. This attractive text had the lists and rules for EVERY WHFB army between its covers. Now in these trying times when people are scrimping and saving and living on the clippings of tin so that they can buy a $30 Big Mek with a Shokk Attack Gun who can afford to drop $400 for a library of codices? Prior to 5th edition my only experience with 40k was Rogue Trader so I suppose as I play more games and read more internet fora I'll get familiar with other army lists. It is rather frustrating.

The stats for most of the current codices' units are in the rulebook. For specific special rules and such, an honest man would ask to see their opponent's codex while a less honest man would download every codex available to torrent. Luckily I never have to ask and I enjoy calling out cheaters.

Smashotron wrote:The stats for most of the current codices' units are in the rulebook. For specific special rules and such, an honest man would ask to see their opponent's codex while a less honest man would download every codex available to torrent. Luckily I never have to ask and I enjoy calling out cheaters.

The stat-lines in the back of the rules, as you say, are not helpful when it comes to figuring out if that specific unit does indeed come with frag and krak grenades, and an extra CC weapon at base cost. I have a few set lists and I provide my opponent with a hard copy of unit stats and itemized point costs. This seems to be an alien practice unless its mandate at a tournament.

-Read the store copies when you have time.

-Borrow a friends codex and read up on armies you are unfamiliar with.

-Plan and save so you can buy codexes when they come out new -- that way in a few years you'll be up 2 date.

Or purchase the copies you use for your armies and DL the copies of everything else for the one off chance you need to look up if someone was cheating. Like oh I don't know when a certain someone is firing three blast templates from a dark reaper lord without line of sight that are all AP3. Never seen that before perhaps I'll look it up tonight when I get home to verify and in the mean time move on with the game.

I own the marine codex and the tyranid codex. Those are the two armies I have played within the last few years. I have *cough* access *cough* to every other codex whenever I'm near a computer. It's not that hard to keep up, if something seems a bit odd ask to see your opponents army list and codex. A good player will be happy to provide them.

Strimen wrote:Or purchase the copies you use for your armies and DL the copies of everything else for the one off chance you need to look up if someone was cheating. Like oh I don't know when a certain someone is firing three blast templates from a dark reaper lord without line of sight that are all AP3.

This is completely legal....and expensive!

As others have said, if it sounds odd ask to see it yourself. It's way too easy for people to only read the parts of the rules they like, even honest players.

Besides, codices come out, what? every three months? at $22 a piece that's around $7 a month fee to not get shafted and actually know the game your playing. Doesn't seem too bad to me.

If you're not sure about a rule then ask your opponent to show you the rule in their codex.

It's not like you can't find them on the internet. Not that I'd suggest anything illegal, of course.

There's no way I'm going to buy all the codexes. They go out of date too frequently.

Then you get to spend years saying "You can do WHAT?!!" instead of $7 a month. Personally I go for knowing the rules and having access to them at all times. Plus they are susually good reading and always tempt me to start a new army ( a sure sign of a good codex).

I'm just silly I guess, I buy them all. Of course, over the years I have played nearly every army out there at some time or another and never know when I'm going to want to go back to one of them.

Kilkrazy wrote:There's no way I'm going to buy all the codexes. They go out of date too frequently.

Neither am I. I bought the one I needed for my army, and then I sailed down to a lovely little bay I know and asked the buccaneers there if they had the other ones for me. And since there are 22 million people who visit the same bay, someone there had all of them for me.

If the problem is that you're being cheated, I really don't think that getting Codices is going to solve the root problem...

In addition to the excellent suggestions of asking your opponents for the rules, I'd like to point out that most of the people I've dealt with who like to "stretch" a 'dex here and there are not the most fun to play with ANYWAY. If you find somebody who's a good sport, usually they aren't going to stretch the 'dex to begin with, and be a much better person to play anyway.

Avoid and shun the cheaters.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If the problem is that you're being cheated, I really don't think that getting Codices is going to solve the root problem...

Hehe, that's a solid half of it. As the OP said, there is both malicious cheating and simple mistakes. Of course, in tight games I've seen some savvy players "forget" rules plenty of times. "Trust but verify" is a good policy. The temptation to cheat is strong, and at the end of a 2 hour game, it's not completely ridiculous that a player would bend a little bit. Is it wrong? Of course. Is it understandable? I think so. Is it preventable? Yes it is.

There is also no reason to pay full price for most codices. Ebay lots, used bookstores, old players: these are all placed to get a lot of the codices for far less than retail.

Beyond that, read through store copies, borrow from friends, and yes, ask your opponent to show you the rule whenever something doesn't feel right. You're new to the game (5th ed and Rogue trader aren't even close to the same game) and as such you should be asking for clarification of some of the obscure and fiddly rules. Stuff like Synapse, ATSKNF, Ramshackle, IG Leadership, DE Wych Weapons, Tau markerlights and Well be back/Monlith are rules that even long time gamers screw up. Take a few minutes, read them thoroughly (if you want to look like a great guy, give your opponent the money to buy a soda while you read) and then you'll get screwed less.

Just play a lot of games. The majority of players aren't cheaters, over time you'll learn all the units/rules.

How about play with opponents who know their own rules?

I agree... more games means you learn more. I often go to tournies and have to teach people the rules!! :(

example.... last opponent didn't know lictors needed to roll dangerous terrain when they come in... didn't know tank wrecks were not area terrain... and didn't know that in Dawn of war you only get 2 UNITS of troops, not 2 Troop choices... bleeeck

Frazzled:
How about play with opponents who know their own rules?

QFT

In addition, I believe an opponent not an knowing their own rules during a tourny to be the most solid support for 'soft' scoring.

Yes. Thats right. It is always morally correct to simpy steal what you don't want to pay for.

Right, that aside...

I buy them as they come out, mainly for something to read on the bog, but also because I just like having them. Same with World of Darkness. I have all the Promethean Books and all the 'generic' books thus far released. Gives me something to read, make my library look impressively geeky, and I know most things my opponent might try, or at least enough to know when things don't sound quite right.

BigToof wrote:In addition to the excellent suggestions of asking your opponents for the rules, I'd like to point out that most of the people I've dealt with who like to "stretch" a 'dex here and there are not the most fun to play with ANYWAY. If you find somebody who's a good sport, usually they aren't going to stretch the 'dex to begin with, and be a much better person to play anyway.

Avoid and shun the cheaters.

Yes. Hear hear!

Yes. Thats right. It is always morally correct to simpy steal what you don't want to pay for.

As long as you buy the codexes for the armies you actually own and play I have no issue with it what so ever. But thats just me.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Yes. Thats right. It is always morally correct to simpy steal what you don't want to pay for.

As long as you buy the codexes for the armies you actually own and play I have no issue with it what so ever. But thats just me.

That's extremely fuzzy morals at best. So you derive no enjoyment, entertainment, or other value from the 'unused' codexes?

Just don't be the guy who I played round one in a tourney last weekend who had a print out of the pirated ork codex at the table...

(his army also wasn't full painted or WYSIWYG as my dreadnaught so rudely discovered when the orks with an extremely well hidden powerklaw charged him..)

Seriously though, I don't own all the codexes, but you pick up on how things work after a couple of games. If there's something you're unfamiliar with, just ask to see their codex. An honest player won't think twice about handing it straight over, if they say "What, you don't trust me?" then.. you shouldn't!

Balance wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Yes. Thats right. It is always morally correct to simpy steal what you don't want to pay for.

As long as you buy the codexes for the armies you actually own and play I have no issue with it what so ever. But thats just me.

That's extremely fuzzy morals at best. So you derive no enjoyment, entertainment, or other value from the 'unused' codexes?

Feelings are free. Material goods and services are not. Games workshop loses nothing by my having a copy of codexes to fact check on, they didn't even put fourth effort to provide me with it. It's no different than "borrowing" one from a friend. Hell, it's better than buying old codexes on ebay instead of shiney new ones. At least I'm not circumventing the concept of paying games workshop for a product entirely. For that matter reading the new marine codex before i purchased it made games workshop 300 dollars of new model sales.

So no, its not fuzzy morals. You appear to be confusing morals and copyright law. Also as for the standard disclaimer... I don't suggest anyone download anything illicitly ever, no matter the circumstances. Even if its a means of preventing death or destruction. Doing so would be immoral.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Feelings are free. Material goods and services are not. Games workshop loses nothing by my having a copy of codexes to fact check on, they didn't even put fourth effort to provide me with it. It's no different than "borrowing" one from a friend. Hell, it's better than buying old codexes on ebay instead of shiney new ones. At least I'm not circumventing the concept of paying games workshop for a product entirely. For that matter reading the new marine codex before i purchased it made games workshop 300 dollars of new model sales.

So no, its not fuzzy morals. You appear to be confusing morals and copyright law. Also as for the standard disclaimer... I don't suggest anyone download anything illicitly ever, no matter the circumstances. Even if its a means of preventing death or destruction. Doing so would be immoral.

I'm sure you're a good guy and you live a good life, but your grasp on morality is not particularly advanced. Is downloading codices deeply immoral, so as to justify horrible punishment? No, it is not. But you are taking the ideas and work of somebody else, and using it for your own betterment. That is stealing, even if intangible. It might not hurt GW, as you point out, but it might.

I mean, obviously this is something that many people do. It's not shockingly bad, but let's not pretend that what you're doing is moral.

I'm sure you're a good guy and you live a good life, but your grasp on morality is not particularly advanced.

What a wonderful way to start a post.

Is downloading codices deeply immoral, so as to justify horrible punishment? No, it is not.

Correct!

But you are taking the ideas and work of somebody else, and using it for your own betterment.

Yes, I am.

That is stealing, even if intangible.

No, it's not.

It might not hurt GW, as you point out, but it might.

Except it won't. You know what? I'm not buying the necron codex. I'm not buying necron models. I likely never will. If I do it won't be based around whether I want to know how WWBB works. Saying an orange won't fall upwards is true. Saying it might is also true. Anything is possible, but thats just damn illogical. You can't steal something from someone if nothing is taken. Copyright law serves to protect potentials from being stolen, potential sales, experiences, etc. There is a big difference between someone that downloads a codex then prints his own book for his main army. Thats simply him circumventing having to buy a codex for his army. It's an entirely different thing for someone to do so simply so he can have a reference to prevent being cheated. That isn't the theft of a potential sale, I was not going to buy the book in any event, and the knowledge gleaned has helped keep me in the hobby.

They are the same legally. Morally they aren't even close. You equate copyright law with morality when copyright law isn't a branch of law that is governed by morality.



standard disclaimer... I don't suggest anyone download anything illicitly ever, no matter the circumstances. Even if its a means of preventing death or destruction. Doing so would be immoral.

ShumaGorath wrote:No, it's not.

How so?

Is this a case of "I wasn't going to buy it anyway, so they're not losing anything", or do you actually believe that downloading something illegaly off the internet isn't stealing.

What do you think of downloading music you haven't paid for? Television shows? Movies? Computer games?

Not acusing, just asking.

BYE

Well, if you download the Necron codex to read the rules, then yes, you have hurt GW, simply because you didn't buy the codex to read the rules. You might claim that you never would, but maybe you might some day. Or maybe you'll join a club that'll buy every codex. Or maybe your buddy will buddy will buy it, and you will borrow it.

The very fact that GW can and does charge money for the rules in the codex is proof that the rules have value. Gaining something of value at the expense of somebody else is theft.

I think as long as you refuse to acknowledge that intellectual property, and the laws governing it, are elements of morality we will be at an impasse. I could explain why IP law is still a moral matter, but I feel it would be a waste of my time.

Not acusing, just asking.

I don't believe that stealing as per the law is stealing as per morality. Both equate a majority of the time, as the majority of the time to steal you have to take something. Copying something isn't theft. You don't take something when you copy it in anything but the most ethereal and undefinable sense.

A capitalistic system of economics requires a copyright system to be in place (Though not necessarily in the form it takes in our system). Simple society which utilizes the concept of ownership requires the concept of stealing to be in place. I find one to be a moral distinction, as stealing breaks an edict on which society is founded. That being private ownership driven by the effort to produce and maintain. I find the other to be a purely economic distinction, as digital copyright laws do not serve a direct function in maintaing society, but rather questionably serve to maintain the capitalistic economic model.

It's a good economic model, but the laws holding it up are based around the drive to profit, not the drive to provide or maintain for society. Which are what morally definable laws serve to do.

I think as long as you refuse to acknowledge that intellectual property, and the laws governing it, are elements of morality we will be at an impasse. I could explain why IP law is still a moral matter, but I feel it would be a waste of my time.

Given the contents of your posts so far I feel that it would be a waste of all of our time.