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Nice to see the shoe on the other foot now.

G

biztheclown wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:biztheclown has an axe to grind against the WC because one of our members crushed him in the final round of the gladiator at Adepticon this year and he was going into it tied for 1st place. Petty. Very petty.

G

This post is complete and total bs. I was not at all mad about that. I wished I had won, but I had no problem whatever with that game. I hung around and talked to my opponent for an hour after the game. Nor have I said anything about the Club, or the gamers in it as a group. In fact, the Adepticon Gladiator was one of the greatest gaming experiences I ever had. Nor did I even know that that player was a part of said club. I have not mentioned the club at all.

That said, in my tournament experiences outside of Adepticon, I have noticed all the social engineering, Judgehammer, and "letting my opponents decide whether they care if I break the rules" that I ever care to. I was not in Baltimore, but what happened there stinks so bad I can smell it here. How about someone actually respond with a reasoned argument about how a good, experienced tournament player could possibly make the "mistakes" here without knowing that they would be a huge unbalancing advantage.

EDIT - misread

Augustus wrote:2007 Adepticon team tourney a WC team built Ork vehicles that were intentionally converted like tall thin skate walls to hide full trucks behind them. It was obvious, look at these images of 1.5 inch by 8 inch by 4 inch trucks (my guess on dimensions) and decide for yourself: images from the 2007 adepticon site:

Okay, to me those things are perfectly emblematic of several failures in the notion of competitive gaming with GW systems. Personally, I'd rather feed my legs into a wood chipper than play the roulette in the hopes of a gaming experience that didn't actually suck.

I don't understand why people would cheat with dice rolling anyways. Half the fun of a game with dice (especially lots of dice) is to put them in a cup and shake the hell out of them, hearing that great sound, and rolling them out. Very fun, in my humble opinion. Double fun if you treat it like a martini, shaking it all over the place and around your head.

I'm also fond of the "blowing-on-them-for-luck" move, and the obligatory "Baby needs a new pair of shoes!" blessing.

Followed by a fist clenching and "Yes!" or by "Curses!", depending on your roll results.

Again, I don't want to talk about a group of individuals, other teams, other models, etc. GBF is trying to make this about his club being attacked. It isn't. It's about the guy who social engineered his way to a prestigious tournament win, thus calling into question whether the competitive tournament scene is a real community that can see things for what they are and correct them, or a bunch of intertwined popularity contests.

Augustus wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:... your overly defensive reaction suggests that perhaps you guys might have less of a stellar reputation than your scores would suggest. I've seen lots of positive accounts of people having played WC members, but plenty of negative ones as well.

2008 Adepticon I had an opponent who moved a squad of models through a pinned squad with insuficient space between the bases in a game at the team tourney. When challenged that this was not legal, he said: "You need to remember this is a sportsmanship game dude and lighten up". Later he moved on 2 carnifexes from reserve in distant locations and decided to to suddenly exchange them during the shooting phase as he had put the wrong models out. I was not kind in what I said about it. My team got zero sportsmanship that round. His team mates looked on in silence during obviously illegal moves. It was a WC team.

I heard about this incident before and the using Sportsmanship as a threat to cower other players. The Wrecking Crew are not the first team to do this and they will not be the last.

I think Sportsmanship should be dropped all together. I have seen and heard of too many accounts of people abusing it.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Nice to see the shoe on the other foot now.

G

I don't even know what this means. The shoe is on the other foot because you are making wild accusations against anyone who is upset? Balls.

How about you, GBF, answer my questions. Could you have made this "mistake"? If it had happened against you, would you have been able to beat it, because it just wasn't that big an advantage? Engage the argument, or it will be clear to all that you are just trolling.

Polonius wrote:A few quick hites:

4) I think that in an 'Ard Boys style tournament, if a judge gives you a ruling that is incredibly beneficial but incorrect, you're put into a difficult moral position. Absent coercion on the part of the player or malice on the part of the judge, I think you have to assume that these rulings are given in good faith and in full consideration of the situation. To use a favorable ruling is advantageous, but isn't it possible that to not use the ruling would be disadvantageous? In other words, with hindsight it's possible to see when a ruling was a big leg up, but in the moment it's harder to see if the ruling was merely meant to level the field. My point is that it's possible that at the moment, a player may not know for a fact that the judges rule is wrong, and in a competition that is about the win, he should use it to his advantage. It is only with hind sight that the honor of that decision can be so completely analyzed. I don't want to argue for moral relativism, but I think you have to use some empathy here: it's round three, there is serious money on the table, you're tired, you're adrenalin is flowing: is it that ridiculous that a player would take a free advantage?

Difficult moral position? No it isn't. You don't take big advantages that are wrong. You don't. Period. You especially don't go fishing for a ruling like this, asking the question in a convoluted way that lumps Daemons deployment in with terminators and other stuff with different special rules. This is not an edge case. This is Kairos starting on the board, with whatever Daemons he wants auto DSing on turn 1.

For your last question--Is it ridiculous? Yes, it really is. This falls well below the standard of behavior that is necessary if the tournament scene is to have any credibility.

biztheclown wrote:

Polonius wrote:A few quick hites:

4) I think that in an 'Ard Boys style tournament, if a judge gives you a ruling that is incredibly beneficial but incorrect, you're put into a difficult moral position. Absent coercion on the part of the player or malice on the part of the judge, I think you have to assume that these rulings are given in good faith and in full consideration of the situation. To use a favorable ruling is advantageous, but isn't it possible that to not use the ruling would be disadvantageous? In other words, with hindsight it's possible to see when a ruling was a big leg up, but in the moment it's harder to see if the ruling was merely meant to level the field. My point is that it's possible that at the moment, a player may not know for a fact that the judges rule is wrong, and in a competition that is about the win, he should use it to his advantage. It is only with hind sight that the honor of that decision can be so completely analyzed. I don't want to argue for moral relativism, but I think you have to use some empathy here: it's round three, there is serious money on the table, you're tired, you're adrenalin is flowing: is it that ridiculous that a player would take a free advantage?

Difficult moral position? No it isn't. You don't take big advantages that are wrong. You don't. Period. You especially don't go fishing for a ruling like this, asking the question in a convoluted way that lumps Daemons deployment in with terminators and other stuff with different special rules. This is not an edge case. This is Kairos starting on the board, with whatever Daemons he wants auto DSing on turn 1.

For your last question--Is it ridiculous? Yes, it really is. This falls well below the standard of behavior that is necessary if the tournament scene is to have any credibility.

Look, by your own admission, you weren't there. Nobody knows exactly what happened, or if similar rulings had been made on other tables. A player cannot tell that a judge's ruling was 100% wrong at the time it was made. My point, which you seemingly ignored, is that these are high level missions that can have effects beyond normal missions. It is possible that the mission read a way that contradicts the normal codex rules. That can and does happen. He asked the person that should know, a judge, for clarification, got the answer that he wanted and used it. Was it a bad call by the judge? Maybe. Should a player ignore a judge's ruling because it might be wrong? I'm not so sure.

I think if we're worried about the credibility of the tournament system, having judges give rulings that aren't horribly wrong is more important than asking players to not abuse bad rulings.

Cheating is breaking the rules. Doing what the judge says is, basically by defintion, following the rules. You can call it dishonorable, but it's not cheating.

Augustus obviously has an axe to grind.

G

biztheclown wrote:
Difficult moral position? No it isn't. You don't take big advantages that are wrong. You don't. Period. You especially don't go fishing for a ruling like this, asking the question in a convoluted way that lumps Daemons deployment in with terminators and other stuff with different special rules. This is not an edge case. This is Kairos starting on the board, with whatever Daemons he wants auto DSing on turn 1.

For your last question--Is it ridiculous? Yes, it really is. This falls well below the standard of behavior that is necessary if the tournament scene is to have any credibility.

Agreed to the very letter.

Evil Eli wrote:I think Sportsmanship should be dropped all together. I have seen and heard of too many accounts of people abusing it.

I agree, but I don't know what the answer is. OT I like the shared dice pool idea a lot. I think that offering an opponent to use your dice and improved table ettiquete are all positive things people could take away from this thread.

I do know that a grad student working on a masters in Math I think actually did a dice test paper about dice with rounded corners, like the chessex small dice vs big ones and he did find in a complete statistical analysis that they generally rolled higher becuase the rounded edges roll easier and the missing pips make the one side heavier than the six side.

Square sided dice with PAINTED ON pips did not exhibit this behavior which he verified in direct testing. It was a great read

His conclusion therefore was that only sqaure sided painted on pip dice are fair, which is actually what casino dice all look like. All of this kind of logically follows though just from observation.

Ironically this means that the GW provided dice inherently roll higher (not always good) and if they provided their own dice it wouldn't necesarily fix the situation.

It would also seem to vindicate users of large square ended painted on pip casino dice.

Sleight of hand, and dice switching are different issues however and it would also incriminate people who switch to rounded dice for high success rolls and square dice where low rolls are better.

Interesting.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Augustus wrote:2007 Adepticon team tourney a WC team built Ork vehicles that were intentionally converted like tall thin skate walls to hide full trucks behind them. It was obvious, look at these images of 1.5 inch by 8 inch by 4 inch trucks (my guess on dimensions) and decide for yourself: images from the 2007 adepticon site:

Okay, to me those things are perfectly emblematic of several failures in the notion of competitive gaming with GW systems. Personally, I'd rather feed my legs into a wood chipper than play the roulette in the hopes of a gaming experience that didn't actually suck.

Indeed, however, remember yak's number one rule. Anyone want to talk about Deathrollers? (I don't)

So where in the rules does it say that have to use small dice?

I prefer the larger dice as they are easier to hold and roll, sure I only get 12 in a cube as oposed to 36 in the small cube. I can assure you that my dice rolls are just as bad as when I use the small dice. Although I have been know to make a number of tough rolls with my trolls. Now if I could just roll to hit that DeathJack.

Of course I am 59 years old and have a problem with the smaller dice.

Now I play for fun and I have never had another player say I can not use those dice.

As for what took place at the Ard Boys, I was not there so I can not comment.

Warrior 50

Green Blow Fly wrote:Augustus obviously has an axe to grind.

G

Dig your trench then.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Augustus obviously has an axe to grind.

G

Nice Redirect

Seems like there are lots of people with axes to grind and obviously not without reason if his pictures arent photoshopped and second hand information again.. (useless defence tbh).

And yes, what he states is also 2 nasty ways of cheating.. creative modelling and threatening with sportsmanship scores.

Here in Sweden we somethimes uses subjective composition and it works pretty much the same way, you can get friendly comp judgements if you have the right connections. Also obviously not a good enviroment for tournament play, that was actually what seemed so good about ard boys.

Danny Internets wrote:

biztheclown wrote:
Difficult moral position? No it isn't. You don't take big advantages that are wrong. You don't. Period. You especially don't go fishing for a ruling like this, asking the question in a convoluted way that lumps Daemons deployment in with terminators and other stuff with different special rules. This is not an edge case. This is Kairos starting on the board, with whatever Daemons he wants auto DSing on turn 1.

For your last question--Is it ridiculous? Yes, it really is. This falls well below the standard of behavior that is necessary if the tournament scene is to have any credibility.

Agreed to the very letter.

Look, I think it's exploiting an advantage. I'm not sure it was the most honorable thing. But I think that you have to give people the benefit of the doubt. this was a split second decision made at the end of long day with money on the table. If the authority gives you an advantage, I can't judge a guy too harshly for taking it.

It's Monday morning quarterbacking of a moral kind. We've all been in these situations: there's confusion, you want to win, you're tired, you and the opponent can't agree. To say that a player knew 100% that the judge's decision was wrong involves making assumptions and a subjective judgment. We don't know the situation on the floor, and we certainly don't know the situation in a player's mind. Assigning malice as a motive without evidence is an unfair act. To make a sweeping and conclusive decision based on rumor and third hand knowledge is reckless. I don't feel comfortable calling a man out for cheating or any dishonorable act without knowing a lot more about what happened than we know here.

Evil Eli wrote:

Augustus wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:... your overly defensive reaction suggests that perhaps you guys might have less of a stellar reputation than your scores would suggest. I've seen lots of positive accounts of people having played WC members, but plenty of negative ones as well.

2008 Adepticon I had an opponent who moved a squad of models through a pinned squad with insuficient space between the bases in a game at the team tourney. When challenged that this was not legal, he said: "You need to remember this is a sportsmanship game dude and lighten up". Later he moved on 2 carnifexes from reserve in distant locations and decided to to suddenly exchange them during the shooting phase as he had put the wrong models out. I was not kind in what I said about it. My team got zero sportsmanship that round. His team mates looked on in silence during obviously illegal moves. It was a WC team.

I heard about this incident before and the using Sportsmanship as a threat to cower other players. The Wrecking Crew are not the first team to do this and they will not be the last.

I think Sportsmanship should be dropped all together. I have seen and heard of too many accounts of people abusing it.

This is really getting to be too much...and really offensive, you guys should totally knock it off.

I AM in the Wrecking Crew, I'm not guilty of cheating, I do my best to maintain good sportsmanship, and I'm also proud of the club that I'm part of.

It's totally unnacceptable for anyone here to lump all WC members into any sort of "cheaters club", we dont spam the boards with "how great we are" a single thread stating how well we've done this season isnt spam and noones forced to go in and read us "patting each others backs" as was said.

If you guys are going to persist that all Wrecking Crew are power-gaming cheaters that do everything in their power to win at the expense of other's fun, then the same can be said about dakka members. You see, I'm wrecking crew, I'm also a regular poster here, I guess that means I'm a Dakkite, so's GBF, Darkness, WCBrian, Stormboy97, WhiteDevil, and others. If all of us in WC endorse cheating, I guess that means that all Dakkites endorse cheating since we're part of your community and we're allowed to post and create threads here.

If you have an issue, take it up with the individual. Our club is no more worthy of the group discriptions that people are leveling at us than Dakkadakka itself would be. All this talk about Wrecking Crew is as offensive to myself as it would be to any of you that go to B&C, Warseer, or any other site and see that someone posted that all Dakkites are generally cheaters and WAAC players.

Knock it off, really.

Deadshane1 wrote:
This is really getting to be too much...and really offensive, you guys should totally knock it off.

I AM in the Wrecking Crew, I'm not guilty of cheating, I do my best to maintain good sportsmanship, and I'm also proud of the club that I'm proud of.

It's totally unnacceptable for anyone here to lump all WC members into any sort of "cheaters club", we dont spam the boards with "how great we are" a single thread stating how well we've done this season isnt spam and noones forced to go in and read us "patting each others backs" as was said.

If you guys are going to persist that all Wrecking Crew are power-gaming cheaters that do everything in their power to win at the expense of other's fun, then the same can be said about dakka members. You see, I'm wrecking crew, I'm also a regular poster here, I guess that means I'm a Dakkite, so's GBF, Darkness, WCBrian, Stormboy97, WhiteDevil, and others. If all of us in WC endorse cheating, I guess that means that all Dakkites endorse cheating since we're part of your community and we're allowed to post and create threads here.

If you have an issue, take it up with the individual. Our club is no more worthy of the group discriptions that people are leveling at us than Dakkadakka itself would be. All this talk about Wrecking Crew is as offensive to myself as it would be to any of you that go to B&C, Warseer, or any other site and see that someone posted that all Dakkites are generally cheaters and WAAC players.

Knock it off, really.

That said, this is how alot of other boards seem to see Dakka: a bunch of players willing to mathammer, rules lawyer, and loophole our way to winning through any means necessary regardless of what others think or feel about the game or rules.

Is there a link to the comments by the winner? I would like to hear his point of view.

I think GW should have a system that does not reward high dice only. Yes, Ld checks are a step in the right direction (low is better) but a fairly minimal one compared to armor saves, invul saves, FNP, WPP, to hit, and to wound rolls. If it was balanced (i.e. high is good to hit, low is good to wound) then as long as the person rolled the same dice each time, no problem.

Its actually you guys dragging this to your team while the topic was on cheating. I know its a delicate topic at the moment for you but that was what it was about from the start.

First one to even mention your team was GBF, so dont blame everyone else.

Secondly its people from your team that lumps you together with statements like that they will defend their teammates no matter what and same statment actually makes people belive you endorse cheating.

Deadshane1 wrote:
This is really getting to be too much...and really offensive, you guys should totally knock it off.

I AM in the Wrecking Crew, I'm not guilty of cheating, I do my best to maintain good sportsmanship, and I'm also proud of the club that I'm part of.

It's totally unnacceptable for anyone here to lump all WC members into any sort of "cheaters club", we dont spam the boards with "how great we are" a single thread stating how well we've done this season isnt spam and noones forced to go in and read us "patting each others backs" as was said.

If you guys are going to persist that all Wrecking Crew are power-gaming cheaters that do everything in their power to win at the expense of other's fun, then the same can be said about dakka members. You see, I'm wrecking crew, I'm also a regular poster here, I guess that means I'm a Dakkite, so's GBF, Darkness, WCBrian, Stormboy97, WhiteDevil, and others. If all of us in WC endorse cheating, I guess that means that all Dakkites endorse cheating since we're part of your community and we're allowed to post and create threads here.

If you have an issue, take it up with the individual. Our club is no more worthy of the group descriptions that people are leveling at us than Dakkadakka itself would be. All this talk about Wrecking Crew is as offensive to myself as it would be to any of you that go to B&C, Warseer, or any other site and see that someone posted that all Dakkites are generally cheaters and WAAC players.

Knock it off, really.

I apologize, Shane, I should have worded that better, It was less of a indictment of the WC team, and more of players abusing of the Sportsmanship Score. That is what I have a real issue with.

Modquisition on.

Thats it. I've received a record number of reports on this thread. Just glancing up I see several posts that are warnable, but I am just going to close the thread. At this point enough people. Further instances involving direct accusations on other members of the board may result in disciplinary proceedings.

Modquisition off.