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Gobstomp420 wrote:Sometimes I break out the box lid for rolling in.

I try to do this, the Ork Battleforce box seems to be the right size.

Cheating is bad, but the best defense is to know the rules, watch your opponent and not be afraid to call him on stuff.

Like Gobstomp says, if someone is rolling badly, call them on it. If you don't like a base size, call them on it. If someone has the deployment rules wrong, call them on it.
It doesn't even have to be aggressive, unless they act like tools about it, and then, well, I'd relish the argument.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:To be honest, after Wrecking Crews Pro/Celeb back slapping contest on these very boards, I can see why people don't like them.

Yea, we're pretty much universally hated, thats why our founding members and regulars at GT's get high sportsmanship scores almost as a club rule, its why we've got good relations with GW staff, its why we have FRIENDLY rivalries with toledo, "Da Boyz", and other clubs that frequent tournements.

Fact is, at tournements you can do A LOT worse than hanging out/gaming with us....ask ANYBODY who has. Heck, even the guy who has issues with what happened with WhiteDevil (gareth) during the 'Ard Boyz had nothing but good things to say about our club.

Go ahead and keep dissing our club though. You look slowed to people who know better.

It would be good if we could keep the anti/pro Wrecking Club stuff confined to PMs. I mean, I really don't give a crap one way or another and it's more than likely to end in a locked thread.
The discussion on cheating avoidance is fun and interesting though and I'd like to see it continue.

From this point on I am going to take my opponent's dice and use them. Then I'll win all the time because he won't be able to play.

Is that cheating or stealing?

There is nothing I love more than an e-peen contest on a website dedicated to witch hunter inquisitors, goblins, nurglings, and Eldrad Ulthuan.

Only a monstrously pathetic douche would cheat on a sci-goth-fantasy wargame played with one inch tall figures. In the truest Darwinian sense, if you've ever cheated on this game (for any reason other than to just piss off your boy) and you've yet to seek psychiatric help, it might be time to pack it in.

I AM THINKING TO BRING A fluff GIRL TO ROLL MY BIG DICE FROM NOW ON AT ALL MAJOR TOURNIES.

G

A few quick hites:

1) I don't know the law in Maryland, but I actually wrote a paper on challenging decisions made by game judges in ohio and the standard for litigation is pretty high. You would have to show fraud or malice, not simply negligence, to get a court to even think about overturning the on-site judges decision. By all accounts the judges simply made a bad call, they weren't pulling for any particular winner. Even if that were the case, you would have to have standing, which means that you are a person that the fraud hurt. That can get tricky outside of the immediate opponent in those games. My point: no legal complaint on this issue would probably get very far. Of course, I'm not a lawyer and I can't give legal advice, so I, as always, recommend seeing a licensed attorney.

2) Any attempt to catch specific cheaters now, almost a week later is bound to fail. We have fading memories and hearsay to go on, and frankly it does tend to come across more as sour grapes than anything else.

3) On the other hand, educating the community about the possibilities of cheating is a very good thing. The way to stop this is in the rooms, on the tables. Get TOs to make announcements about dice rolling and how it should be done. Empower people to ask opponents to roll properly. that is the lesson to take from this. Trying to call out people based on rumors is a waste of everybody's time, but learning how to prevent this from happening in the future is a good thing!

4) I think that in an 'Ard Boys style tournament, if a judge gives you a ruling that is incredibly beneficial but incorrect, you're put into a difficult moral position. Absent coercion on the part of the player or malice on the part of the judge, I think you have to assume that these rulings are given in good faith and in full consideration of the situation. To use a favorable ruling is advantageous, but isn't it possible that to not use the ruling would be disadvantageous? In other words, with hindsight it's possible to see when a ruling was a big leg up, but in the moment it's harder to see if the ruling was merely meant to level the field. My point is that it's possible that at the moment, a player may not know for a fact that the judges rule is wrong, and in a competition that is about the win, he should use it to his advantage. It is only with hind sight that the honor of that decision can be so completely analyzed. I don't want to argue for moral relativism, but I think you have to use some empathy here: it's round three, there is serious money on the table, you're tired, you're adrenalin is flowing: is it that ridiculous that a player would take a free advantage?

blood angel wrote:From this point on I am going to take my opponent's dice and use them. Then I'll win all the time because he won't be able to play.

Is that cheating or stealing?

I have been known to put my opponents dice down my pants after an especially hot round of dice rolling. I find it works wonders in removing any 'luck' the dice might have. That and the fact my opponents doesn't want to roll them anymore works great!

I have been thinking more about this subject and I think I have overreacted to the whole thing. There are always small cases of 'cheating' that happens during a game. From just moving a model 6" + 1/12th an inch knowingly or not, to swearing on a bible that the rule works this way only to find out you are mixing 3rd - 4th - and 5th edition rules in your head. The cheating can range from the obscure to the blatent depending on the person viewing (or receiving) the infraction. We have all been in games where the opponent is losing, but playing the rules wrong. When we are losing, then the opponent isn't playing the rules wrong, they are cheating. It's amazing how the distinction occurs depending on how well we are doing. Now I thought all about this and also the fact that the Ard Boyz scenarios have in the past bent all forms of established rules to throw curves at people. This has to be in the mind of players when they look at the scenarios. I also can't complain to much about the basing issues of a model. Some models just don't work well on certain bases. I have a bunch of Raptors on Termie bases because on the normal bases they kept falling over on gentle slopes. It was frustrating enough that I glued them to bigger bases just so they wouldn't fall over. Some times it can be a little helpful to have bigger bases and sometimes it can be a detriment (like when trying to hide the Raptors behind a Rhino I find I can't get as many out of LOS).

Now when it comes to a winner of a big event their moves are scrutized more and the fear of cheating erupts in peoples minds. It can just be a seed of doubt, but it becomes absolute gospel at the slightest rules violation. Could it have been an honest mistake? Yes it could have. Could it have backfired against certain armies? Yes it could have to. In the end it is what it is and the winner is crowned. It falls on each of us to be more diligent during games against people from across the country. Not because they cheat 'over there' but because we each play a little differently and that can lead, in close games at the top tables, to perceived cheating. No one usually thinks they are being cheated on during the game unless it is outright cheating, but after the hussle and bussle of the game, in the quiet times in the hotel room, you can look back and think that there was rules bending going on that affected the outcome. If it was going to affect the outcome that much you would have picked up on it right away wouldn't you?

I think the deployment was played wrong. I don't think there was outright cheating going on. There is a difference. I also think the attempt to stymie our thoght process in this is bad form. There is no need to reply to every post that you don't agree with. That being said the next time you think ' big dice' are losing the game for you, take them and put them down your pants. It works for me every time. I'm just glad my opponent doesn't roll a hot iron or something to make morale checks.

Kallbrand wrote:On the other part of the topic, what can be done about it?

The biggest thing is to ofc. having the organizers responcible for investigating cheating and reporting it in whenever found and the person in question banned from future events.

After more thinking I guess plastic camping cups and standard GW dice for everyone would solve the dicerolling, if that is such a huge problem.

That is a really good idea

Deadshane1 wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:To be honest, after Wrecking Crews Pro/Celeb back slapping contest on these very boards, I can see why people don't like them.

Yea, we're pretty much universally hated, thats why our founding members and regulars at GT's get high sportsmanship scores almost as a club rule, its why we've got good relations with GW staff, its why we have FRIENDLY rivalries with toledo, "Da Boyz", and other clubs that frequent tournements.

Fact is, at tournements you can do A LOT worse than hanging out/gaming with us....ask ANYBODY who has. Heck, even the guy who has issues with what happened with WhiteDevil (gareth) during the 'Ard Boyz had nothing but good things to say about our club.

Go ahead and keep dissing our club though. You look slowed to people who know better.

He didn't disrespect your club, he simply sympathized with those who dislike the recent posts/threads that the WC members have started. Yes, we know you guys are competent gamers--you can keep the circle jerks to PMs or your club forums.

With regards to sportsmanship, your overly defensive reaction suggests that perhaps you guys might have less of a stellar reputation than your scores would suggest. I've seen lots of positive accounts of people having played WC members, but plenty of negative ones as well.

I smell sour grapes

Good point Darth....

Most effective Dark Eldar Armies want to close with the enemy as quickly as possible - while leaving some units to shoot at range - especially a wych cult.

I don't know what the DE opponent was playing - but maybe have the demons on the board and able to be first turn assaulted sounded like a good thing only it didn't work out so good at then end? Otherwise if something sounded way out of whack - call a judge over to the TABLE to rule in front of both players.

At the end though what you said makes a lot of sense - well maybe not so much the dice down the pants:

No one usually thinks they are being cheated on during the game unless it is outright cheating, but after the hussle and bussle of the game, in the quiet times in the hotel room, you can look back and think that there was rules bending going on that affected the outcome. If it was going to affect the outcome that much you would have picked up on it right away wouldn't you?

I think the deployment was played wrong. I don't think there was outright cheating going on. There is a difference.


The dice thing is easy to fix - GW should - in place of the tape measures, water bottles, etc - give you a set of dice that you MUST use during the tournament for all your dice rolls. That's easy!

I'm surprised that so few people posting in this thread have mentioned dice cups. I'd like to mention dice cups again, as well as iterate the utility of a box to roll in.

One reason I'd like to mention dice cups is that not all cups are equal. Proper dice cups have a rim or ridges on the inside so that any dice coming out of them come out spinning.

Aldonis wrote:

The dice thing is easy to fix - GW should - in place of the tape measures, water bottles, etc - give you a set of dice that you MUST use during the tournament for all your dice rolls. That's easy!

I like this idea.

But honestly... I corrected peoples deployment on almost every table there. The guys on table 2 had deployed everything in the corners and all tropp choices as well... seriously.

People there made tons of mistakes on every table. Stop your "oh gawd I didn't win" crying and let it GO!!

Perhaps because people got most of their information based on hearsay or were not there to see it happen. Simply put, the accused defended himself when he could have simply plead silence but he gave you his side of the story and stated many times he had the correct base size and that he asked his opponents if he could use a smaller base.

Also if someone in your club gets himself in an online witch hunt, out of loyalty to your friends and club members you will defend them.

I have been to GTs (and adepticon for 3 years) since 2004 and countless RTTs around the state of Florida. I have yet to see cheating of dice on the scale of what is suggested in this thread. If the paranoia is that high, I suggest we use Darkness' idea of issuing dice at GTs and I really dont mind paying an extra 5-10 dollars.

Danny Internets wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:To be honest, after Wrecking Crews Pro/Celeb back slapping contest on these very boards, I can see why people don't like them.

Yea, we're pretty much universally hated, thats why our founding members and regulars at GT's get high sportsmanship scores almost as a club rule, its why we've got good relations with GW staff, its why we have FRIENDLY rivalries with toledo, "Da Boyz", and other clubs that frequent tournements.

Fact is, at tournements you can do A LOT worse than hanging out/gaming with us....ask ANYBODY who has. Heck, even the guy who has issues with what happened with WhiteDevil (gareth) during the 'Ard Boyz had nothing but good things to say about our club.

Go ahead and keep dissing our club though. You look slowed to people who know better.

He didn't disrespect your club, he simply sympathized with those who dislike the recent posts/threads that the WC members have started. Yes, we know you guys are competent gamers--you can keep the circle jerks to PMs or your club forums.

With regards to sportsmanship, your overly defensive reaction suggests that perhaps you guys might have less of a stellar reputation than your scores would suggest. I've seen lots of positive accounts of people having played WC members, but plenty of negative ones as well.

Exactly!

I have a strong distaste for 'Woooh! Yeah! Go Team' type nonsense. Perhaps it's an inherent Britishness thing, but I like to see good winners, who don't go clapping each other on the back and publicly discussing how great they are. It's just not the done thing.

This thread (and the similar, previous ones) raise a whole host of interesting questions, ethical and practical, for the WC, tournament organizers and regular gamers as well.

For full disclosure (for those who say people who have never attended a GT have no business discussing it), I've played 40K for about 15 years, with several local tournaments, but nothing major like a GT. Too much money, and I don't play enough, with a competitive enough crowd, to get to where I'd need to be to successfully compete. I am considering going to one next year, however, and the issues raised recently are certainly worrisome:

Let's take a look at some of the main accusations:

Varying base size: The current rulebook is much different on the subject than the previous one. It states simply that varying base sizes may affect gameplay, so make sure to have your opponent's consent if using something other than the provided base size. So, as far as blatant cheating in terms of illegal gameplay, it sounds like the story, as presented, isn't a problem (at least the version where the player has complete sets of the models with both sized bases and obtains opponent's consent to use them).

Ethically, however, I think this does raise a few issues. As noted earlier...why would someone have complete sets of the same unit with different bases? If you know a modeling issue can grant your army a benefit, and your opponent doesn't, and you convince him to allow your non-standard models, is that ok? The advantage of the smaller models is immense...for 3 across, you reduce your deepstrike (and therefore mishap) diameter from 180mm to 120mm. That's a free 33% reduction, and the cost of potential mishaps should (SHOULD, GW) be factored into the unit cost.

Were sportsmanship scores given at this GT? Who wants to deny letting an opponent use the model he wants and risk getting nuked on sportsmanship scores? If the story as presented is incorrect, and say the player had a mixed unit with both sizes, you're still in a mixed spot as an opponent. Do you say it's not acceptable and risk getting hammered on sportsmanship, and possibly look like a jerk for making a big deal over someone's modeling/artistic expression? Most people go to play good, tough games of 40K and show of their well-painted armies, so you don't want to make a mountain out of a mole-hill, but you want the game even and fair in all regards except player skill.

Dice (rolling and actual items): First, it's incredibly hard to catch even a decent dice-cheat, let alone an expert. Second, if you think no one would bother cheating at a GT or other hobby event, you're, at best, unfamiliar with human nature or, at worst, a moron. We've all seen or heard about the petty jerks at local gaming stores...when you amplify that to people investing much more time and money to boost their ego, you can create a dangerous opponent.

It's quite probable that no one cheated at any of the GTs this year, at least regarding dice, but if some had wanted to, and were even moderately skilled at it, it wouldn't be difficult. I think this is more of a perception issue in regards to tournament integrity, but it's fairly easily addressed. Have a rolling box attached to the board/table, issue cheap dice and cups for use at the tournament, and you're done. Some inconvenience and cost, but even the perception of cheating by the most jaded loser is pretty much eliminated. And, you avoid the issues of dice hitting models, rolling of the table, cocked, lost, etc.

The whole mission deployment issue: As with the first issue I listed, it appears nothing can legitimately be leveled against the demon-player, at least as far as breaking the rules. He got a ruling from a tournament referee and went with it. Tournament ref rulings should take precedence over everything else (unfortunately), because otherwise no decision on rules questions would ever be reached. Let's look at the summary:

darkness wrote:
As for the DoW deployment. He had it ruled the same way in the semis, with out asking a judge, so its best to ask. For those who say, its clear as day you cant do that, then you dont remember last years Ard Boyz. One of the missions forced all DS to set up on the table. This included DPs, Termis, and Chaos Generic Demons. So there is a precedent for screwey missions.

People play Demons with Dawn of War rules all the time, and it's perfectly clear. It appears the player here was fishing for the beneficial answer and hoping he'd get it occasionally (with fairly low risk if denied), which he apparently did. Last year's Ard Boyz is completely irrelevant, as this is not a special tournament with its own unique rules but a GW event with the standard missions from the book.

So, it would appear that no cheating was involved, but the scenario as presented seems to raise some serious ethics issues. As this is not a novice player being discussed, but the member of an organization comprised of some of the best players in the country, it's hard to overlook these issues as innocent mistakes or ignorance and not attempts to gain an advantage while not (technically) breaking any rules.

I wasn't at 'Ard Boys, didn't hear anything about the cheating until this morning as I read through threads, and realize nothing can be done about that/those tournament(s) now.

But what we CAN do is move forward, finding a solution to the "dice problem".

If I was a Tournament Organizer, I'd make one of these for each table.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Making-a-Formboard-Dice-Tower/

Simple dice tower. I'd allow players to use their own dice. If the dice don't fit in the tower, you can't use them. Have a few sets of GW dice for purchase with me for those players that came with dice that don't fit.

The entry fee should more than cover the costs of making them.

Lormax wrote:I wasn't at 'Ard Boys, didn't hear anything about the cheating until this morning as I read through threads, and realize nothing can be done about that/those tournament(s) now.

But what we CAN do is move forward, finding a solution to the "dice problem".

If I was a Tournament Organizer, I'd make one of these for each table.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Making-a-Formboard-Dice-Tower/

Simple dice tower. I'd allow players to use their own dice. If the dice don't fit in the tower, you can't use them. Have a few sets of GW dice for purchase with me for those players that came with dice that don't fit.

The entry fee should more than cover the costs of making them.

I have a friend who is nearly blind... he does not use small dice since he can't see he uses HUGE ones

Nurglitch wrote:I'm surprised that so few people posting in this thread have mentioned dice cups. I'd like to mention dice cups again, as well as iterate the utility of a box to roll in.

One reason I'd like to mention dice cups is that not all cups are equal. Proper dice cups have a rim or ridges on the inside so that any dice coming out of them come out spinning.

I like the box. I bring my dice box with me for every game I play. I got tired long ago of the "cocked" dice and in general losing dice. At first some people looked at me funny but most people get it since I try to put it in the middle or their side of the table.

My only problem is that I have found many people start to like my box and start rolling in it. Espicially if they were rolling bad before its amazing how they will start to roll well. Than I have to sulk a bit because I feel like my box is turning on me

Nurglitch wrote:I'm surprised that so few people posting in this thread have mentioned dice cups. I'd like to mention dice cups again, as well as iterate the utility of a box to roll in.

One reason I'd like to mention dice cups is that not all cups are equal. Proper dice cups have a rim or ridges on the inside so that any dice coming out of them come out spinning.

Yep but if both players in a game used the same cup and the same set of dice it would minimize the ability to cheat.


On a side note converting and painting dice cups to look like some sort of terrain would make them a functional and aesthetic addition to any table.

Deadshane1 wrote:Go ahead and keep dissing our club though. You look slowed to people who know better.

Thing is, he's allowed not to like you. In fact, I don't really like you either. The important thing, as with other facets of life, is tolerance. I may not like the idea of a club of top players sweeping the table in major tournaments (pardon the crude oversimplification), but I tolerate it. I also don't go out of my way to insult you, because I'm on a different continent and suck horribly at 40k.

Hey, speaking of dice, there's a really neat dice application available for the iPhone - you shake it and it rolls the dice!

sabote wrote:

I like the box. I bring my dice box with me for every game I play. I got tired long ago of the "cocked" dice and in general losing dice. At first some people looked at me funny but most people get it since I try to put it in the middle or their side of the table.

My only problem is that I have found many people start to like my box and start rolling in it. Espicially if they were rolling bad before its amazing how they will start to roll well. Than I have to sulk a bit because I feel like my box is turning on me

You have your farseer cast fortune on your box at the start of every game!

Stupid box....I hates it.....

Green Blow Fly wrote:biztheclown has an axe to grind against the WC because one of our members crushed him in the final round of the gladiator at Adepticon this year and he was going into it tied for 1st place. Petty. Very petty.

G

This post is complete and total bs. I was not at all mad about that. I wished I had won, but I had no problem whatever with that game. I hung around and talked to my opponent for an hour after the game. Nor have I said anything about the Club, or the gamers in it as a group. In fact, the Adepticon Gladiator was one of the greatest gaming experiences I ever had. Nor did I even know that that player was a part of said club. I have not mentioned the club at all.

That said, in my tournament experiences outside of Adepticon, I have noticed all the social engineering, Judgehammer, and "letting my opponents decide whether they care if I break the rules" that I ever care to. I was not in Baltimore, but what happened there stinks so bad I can smell it here. How about someone actually respond with a reasoned argument about how a good, experienced tournament player could possibly make the "mistakes" here without knowing that they would be a huge unbalancing advantage.

biztheclown:

What, you've seen YMDC...

Danny Internets wrote:... your overly defensive reaction suggests that perhaps you guys might have less of a stellar reputation than your scores would suggest. I've seen lots of positive accounts of people having played WC members, but plenty of negative ones as well.

I wouldnt speak from anything I did not see first hand. I never noticed any dice cheating when I played any WC teams in thos threads, I was not at Baltimore. For the record I do NOT have an axe to grind with WC, but I have had both pos. and neg. experiences also. As with any group some good some bad.

2008 Adepticon I had an opponent who moved a squad of models through a pinned squad with insuficient space between the bases in a game at the team tourney. When challenged that this was not legal, he said: "You need to remember this is a sportsmanship game dude and lighten up". Later he moved on 2 carnifexes from reserve in distant locations and decided to to suddenly exchange them during the shooting phase as he had put the wrong models out. I was not kind in what I said about it. My team got zero sportsmanship that round. His team mates looked on in silence during obviously illegal moves. It was a WC team.

2007 Adepticon team tourney a WC team built Ork vehicles that were intentionally converted like tall thin skate walls to hide full trucks behind them. It was obvious, look at these images of 1.5 inch by 8 inch by 4 inch trucks (my guess on dimensions) and decide for yourself: images from the 2007 adepticon site:

Gobstomp420 wrote:But I AM 6'8" and I DO start each game by devouring a small child, so maybe that has something to do with it?

Cheater!

Dammit Polonius, why do you have the ability to say what I'm thinking, yet in a much more coherent manner?

I think at this point it's just a matter of making sure this doesn't happen again, because even the allegations of cheating make Ard Boyz less appealing.