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To the point of the OP: In our group the Eldar player (only on of us still does) uses Pathfinders and Fireprisms as his answer to most problems. The pathfinders are actully there for to Infiltrate, Scout Move and Tarpit. Once the bikers are consolidated a bit, the Prisms start instakilling. If the Orks go around, they are still funneling themselves a tad.

I know those two units are out of favor as the FotM, but they never stopped being effective.

focusedfire wrote:
Unless in area terrain cover save is limited to a certain arc of effectiveness.

Ork Warbikes always get a 4+ cover save.

focusedfire wrote:
Ridiculous amounts of luck or applied tactics. Stategy doesn't stop when you put the pen down.

Good in theory. Extremely difficult/impossible in execution.

Blackarandras wrote:If the nobs were spread across the board they would be easy to kill. Centurian99, what do you think about the jetseer mindwaring the painboy then dooming the unit? Then another Farseer in the back guiding the shooties. It wouldn't bother me if I lost the jetseer either. I'm not sure about the math-hammer but it seems this would greatly increase the odds in your favor(Eldar).

Not really. They're no more easy to kill if spread out than they are in the open. Let's look at various methods, and assume that the painboy is mindwarred (even though a 4+ cover save and a 4+ FNP save means that mindwar is unreliable, because you need eight wounds inflicted. And we'll assume that the squad is doomed.

Guided warwalker squad /w scatter lasers.
24 shots, 18 hits, 16 wounds. Warboss takes 2, 6 nobs take 2, 2 nobs take 1. 4+ cover, 8 unsaved wounds...quite likely not on the same models, so your warwalker squad hasn't killed a single model. Since you caused no casualties, no morale needed. And that's from one of the shootiest units in the Eldar armory.

Warwalkers and guide farseer get charged and wiped out.

Oh yeah, what are you doing about the 2nd nob biker squad that's running around?

Razerous wrote:
But, how I see it, just as you block lanes of fire with units.. you can block lanes of travel with units & as ive mentioned, some arent quite so sacraficial as they can easily do thier points in damage. Also if you do pump enough wounds into a nobz squad after the nth one, you start loosing nobz so thier not immune to mass str 7 > firepower.

Easy to do in theory. Difficult to impossible in execution.

Recklessfable wrote:To the point of the OP: In our group the Eldar player (only on of us still does) uses Pathfinders and Fireprisms as his answer to most problems. The pathfinders are actully there for to Infiltrate, Scout Move and Tarpit. Once the bikers are consolidated a bit, the Prisms start instakilling. If the Orks go around, they are still funneling themselves a tad.

I know those two units are out of favor as the FotM, but they never stopped being effective.

Why would the orks even bother with the pathfinders. Turbo-boost at the fire-prisms, and you've got a 4+ save. stay spread out until you charge. Once you take down the fire prisms, then go after the pathfinders...

Why is everyone seeming to assume that the ork player will go after bait units that really can't hurt him, and instead go after units that actually have a (small) chance?

Centurian99 wrote:

focusedfire wrote:
Unless in area terrain cover save is limited to a certain arc of effectiveness.

Ork Warbikes always get a 4+ cover save.

Yes the Warbikes do. But, I was refferencing the grots hidden and hard to get to comment. The tactic is wipe out his back field and he no longer has enough units to control the board.

If he charges both bikers squads the same direction, he then limits the number of squads he can engage in HTH and with your manueverability it turns into a long table edge battle(An ork players worst nightmare)

If he splits his forces. You drive in between them and focus fire and assault the enveloped Squad.

You have a good chance of getting him down to One squad and when you do the game is yours.

Just an idea.

Centurian99 wrote:

Blackarandras wrote:If the nobs were spread across the board they would be easy to kill. Centurian99, what do you think about the jetseer mindwaring the painboy then dooming the unit? Then another Farseer in the back guiding the shooties. It wouldn't bother me if I lost the jetseer either. I'm not sure about the math-hammer but it seems this would greatly increase the odds in your favor(Eldar).

Not really. They're no more easy to kill if spread out than they are in the open. Let's look at various methods, and assume that the painboy is mindwarred (even though a 4+ cover save and a 4+ FNP save means that mindwar is unreliable, because you need eight wounds inflicted. And we'll assume that the squad is doomed.

Guided warwalker squad /w scatter lasers.
24 shots, 18 hits, 16 wounds. Warboss takes 2, 6 nobs take 2, 2 nobs take 1. 4+ cover, 8 unsaved wounds...quite likely not on the same models, so your warwalker squad hasn't killed a single model. Since you caused no casualties, no morale needed. And that's from one of the shootiest units in the Eldar armory.

Warwalkers and guide farseer get charged and wiped out.

Oh yeah, what are you doing about the 2nd nob biker squad that's running around?

What part of focused fire and remove whole units when possible is so hard to understand. If your looking for one squad to do all the damage your crazy. Now take the squad with 8 wounds and add the next firing units wounds and the squad effectivly stops being the uber-scary threat. Easily handled with warlock assault mop up.

If you've cleared the backfield, he's down to one unit by end of turn 3

I've given this question some serious thought, and I think the following is about as good as the Eldar are going to get.

Get a Mech Eldar army, transports full of Eldar, shooters or fighters.

The Orks can't hurt it at range, so when they drive up you drive right up into their face, do some insignificant shooting.

They can charge you, but you've moved > 6" so most of your vehicles (esp the holo field ones) should survive. Even the ones that die shouldn't hurt their cargo too badly.

On your turn you launch a full on shoot/assault (it gets doomed, your whole army dogpiles/shoots it, Banshees and Harlies charge preferentially, DA shoot, etc, you also get the guns from any of the ships that weren't trashed in their shooting phase) Your target is one of the two Nob units.

With your surviving tanks you tank shock/block the remaining Nob Bikers. The Ork player gets no choice as to where he moves the bikers (shortest distance is perfectly predictable/controllable by the guy moving the tank), so you ought to be able to shove them back a good ways.

If your blitz fails to destroy the one Nob unit you lose the game, but my math has the Eldar army winning. If you win, whichever unit took the most damage/rolled the highest on the massacre roll needs to jump surround and protect the other units from B2B contact, not hard as the Ork bases are large.

Now it's their turn, they've got a blockade of tanks (most of whom they can hit on 4+, some few might have been optimally positioned, and hence still have the speed protection), between their remaining Nob unit and the squishies. Bikes can go a long way though, I think they probably ultimately are able to move around the blockade and charge in, but if you've moved correctly they should only get the guard unit, which they'll obliterate.

For the final battle your blitz force, minus 1 unit and anything the other bikers got, repeats the process on the last Nob Biker squad. My math says that, once again, you'll get this, esp. if the unit you lost was a DA squad that had already bladestormed or some such.

That's my take on it anyway.

I personally hate elves, spaceborne or otherwise, so I don't know much about how to build armies within their dex. Is the above possible in a take-all-comers list?

Anything, one on one, against the Nob bikers, will lose. This is in the shooting phase or the combat phase. This is a given.

However, one need not and should not face them one-on-one. Feel free to throw your entire army at one unit of the bikers. You probably won't wipe them in one turn, but you'll put a hurt on them. They'll likely be forced to put wounds on some of the nobs and/or the warboss. Next turn do the same, and you should be able to break them. If they charge something, it'll probably die. Best that it does, as then you can shoot them again. But a one-on-one unit trade will always come out against the Ork player.

What about the second unit? Well, with vehicles, you can create a wall that they can't get through. If they're turboboosting to get a save or get around the wall, then you can do it again next turn, plus they're not charging. If they do charge, well, they're hitting on 6s, so there's a good chance most of the vehicles will still be around next turn. Even without vehicles, you still need to concentrate fire on a single unit, wear it down, and sacrifice units to the bikers if need be.

Kind of what 40Kenthusiast said above, really. But saying "x does y damage to the bikers, then gets charged and wiped" is really missing the point. No one thing in the Eldar army can do enough damage in one round to take out a full, strong biker nob unit. But an army, over a couple rounds, can, and that's how the Eldar (with their specialist units all trying to work together) are supposed to work. Easy? No way. But possible.

The heavy lifting is done by assault units + Eldrad in transports, which is a pretty middle of the road Eldar list. I didn't feel like I was asking for anything exotic.

0ldsk00l wrote:FAQ says coversave applies to mindwar. Also, these wounds can be FnP'd. kinda nerfs that idea.

Cover save does apply to mind war... but as it does not allow for an armor save, you can't FNP it. The precedent for that was set with dangerous terrain tests. Any wound caused to a model that does not allow an armor save does not allow FNP.


This thread has actually been a pretty productive one. Ignoring the few digressions (one of which I caused), we have seen everyone sort of work up a lather of ideas.

None of my take on all comers lists can beat orks. The closest thing I have to a take on all comers that can beat nob bikers is a wraithlord/harlequin/eldrad/dire avengers in BL serpents list.

In this list, as was mentioned, you just lob bright lances and EMLs into the nobs, try and maneuver for a mind war, force them into your harlequins, then pray, if you lose the harlies, just put 60 avenger shots into the unit. It probably won't do anything, but its your last chance. I've seen that game go eldar's way. You just need the dice.

I won't post the math, because it doesn't favor the eldar. But at least the list can stand up to space marines, chaos space marines and demons, while having that gambler's chance against orks.

There has been some great ideas in here for a more focused list against orks. Particularly the addition of karandras, I'll definitely be adding him just for some laughs against my regular ork buddy.

Centurian99 wrote:

Recklessfable wrote:To the point of the OP: In our group the Eldar player (only on of us still does) uses Pathfinders and Fireprisms as his answer to most problems. The pathfinders are actully there for to Infiltrate, Scout Move and Tarpit. Once the bikers are consolidated a bit, the Prisms start instakilling. If the Orks go around, they are still funneling themselves a tad.

I know those two units are out of favor as the FotM, but they never stopped being effective.

Why would the orks even bother with the pathfinders. Turbo-boost at the fire-prisms, and you've got a 4+ save. stay spread out until you charge. Once you take down the fire prisms, then go after the pathfinders...

Why is everyone seeming to assume that the ork player will go after bait units that really can't hurt him, and instead go after units that actually have a (small) chance?

If done right, the Ork has one choice. Get stuck in or lose the cover save for Turbo Boosting. You have to end up 18" away from your starting point to get the save. Pathfinders can spread out too... Also, I've seen a first-turn charge with pathfinders (running single-file to avoid having everyone stuck in). The tough part there is losing just enough models to no break.

Seriously, a much more effective take all comers list for eldar includes 1 or 2 gaint bike seer councils. They are crazy resilient and can pump out wounds in CC to everything besides terminators and biker nobs really.

Sprinkle in Prisms and bikes or Serpent mounted infantry for troops and you have a very mobile army that can hang in reserves if need be or speed around the board. The Seer bikes too the bulk of the killin' and the troops hang out to either deny KP's or grab an objective last turn.

focusedfire wrote:
What part of focused fire and remove whole units when possible is so hard to understand. If your looking for one squad to do all the damage your crazy. Now take the squad with 8 wounds and add the next firing units wounds and the squad effectivly stops being the uber-scary threat. Easily handled with warlock assault mop up.

If you've cleared the backfield, he's down to one unit by end of turn 3

You're vastly overestimating the firepower you can put out, and vastly underestimating the ability of the ork player to maneuver, the orks resilience, and your ability to avoid HTH combat. You talk about wiping out the "ork backfield" but doing that is pretty much counter-productive for your goal of taking on the nob bikerz.

The nob biker build we're talking about here is very specific. At 1750, we're talking about 2 10-man squads of bikerz, with painboy and warboss, 5 power klaws, cybork bodies for the 5++, and every model different. That leaves just enough points for a near-full sized squad of grotz or boyz.

Taking out that backfield squad is not easy. They're stuck in cover, and go to ground if they get shot. Good luck getting through ~30 3+ cover saves.

The nob bikers kill anything they touch. There's a few exceptions, but Eldar don't have any of them. The best they've got are fortuned warlocks (particularly biker locks) but that unit doesn't kill the nobs...it just doesn't die.

The vast majority of the shooting eldar have that can threaten nob bikers are in the heavy support slots. And it does a poor job.

Nearly everything else does jack squat. 6 squads of dire avengers bladestorming is likely to leave orks alive. Even assuming that the squad is doomed, 180 shots, 120 hits, 64 wounds, ~42 3+ cover saves, 11 FNP saves. You probably killed a model or two, but possibly killed nothing.

And that assumes you can get 60 models within 18". Which also means that all those squads get multicharged and wiped off the table.

Lets assume you go with three squads of warwalkers and the two farseers. Assuming that you've mindwarred the painboy (which is by no means guaranteed, thanks to the 3+ cover save...you can guide 1 set of shots. Assuming they've all got scatter lasers, that 72 scatter laser shots. 42 will hit (thanks to guiding one squad). Wounding on a 3+, so if the squad is doomed, 38 wounds. 3+ turbo-boost cover save, so 12-13 wounds. Killed a few models, probably. Now your warlocks can charge in and wipe them out...oh wait, there's a second squad, which now kills everything else...starting with the farseers, who are almost certainly within range.

Massed fire is a sucker's bet. S8+ shooting is a hail mary. Unless you've got simply ridiculous amounts of it, or a way to reduce their covers saves.

whitedragon wrote:Seriously, a much more effective take all comers list for eldar includes 1 or 2 gaint bike seer councils. They are crazy resilient and can pump out wounds in CC to everything besides terminators and biker nobs really.

Sprinkle in Prisms and bikes or Serpent mounted infantry for troops and you have a very mobile army that can hang in reserves if need be or speed around the board. The Seer bikes too the bulk of the killin' and the troops hang out to either deny KP's or grab an objective last turn.

I still prefer pathfinders over mounted troops. Mounted elites, fine.. But yeah, str 9 witch blades should be fine against nobz - its purely the 2+ termy save & the multiple orky saves which gets in the way. Doom & rending.. I like this alot.

Um I dont mean to drivial on but.. a multi charge from a seer concil squad & some harlies.. (doomed if you fancy, not nessicary) the I6-7 harlies put a couple rending wounds on the squad & then the slighly slower (but faster than ork) seers start dishing out str 9 hits.

Now if youve got a proper nobz biker squad with a few wounds on a few models.. the str 8+ (Vaping) hits still have to be put on unwounded models..right?

Centurian99: Your guilty of the same thing- Your overestimating the ability of the orks to do everything. Multicharging 60models with higher I is, atleast worth a few wounds. If you actually could charge 6 different squads with 9 models (remember, uve lost one) then the other guy is being a plonk.
Not allowing them to turbo boost right up the field is also a given, as I always seem to hear that turboboosting cover save as a norm.

whitedragon wrote:Seriously, a much more effective take all comers list for eldar includes 1 or 2 gaint bike seer councils. They are crazy resilient and can pump out wounds in CC to everything besides terminators and biker nobs really.

That's my operating theory right now. Building up my eldar between commissions, and right now my plan is to include a full jetlock council and some wraithlords, to give me a prayer against the dual nob bikerz. It's still not a good one, but it's the best shot I think exists.

whitedragon wrote:Seriously, a much more effective take all comers list for eldar includes 1 or 2 gaint bike seer councils. They are crazy resilient and can pump out wounds in CC to everything besides terminators and biker nobs really.

Sprinkle in Prisms and bikes or Serpent mounted infantry for troops and you have a very mobile army that can hang in reserves if need be or speed around the board. The Seer bikes too the bulk of the killin' and the troops hang out to either deny KP's or grab an objective last turn.

I can see 1 coucil in the 1500 to 1800 range but two seems like you would run out of points for anything else to deal with other armies. I have pretty much run a council on bikes at 6 or 7 warlocks and that is alot of points. Start mounting units in waveserpents, even cheap ones and you are out of points fast.

Cent, what do you think about my idea a few posts up? I don't think the Nob Bikers have any good counter to that.

40kenthusiast wrote:Cent, what do you think about my idea a few posts up? I don't think the Nob Bikers have any good counter to that.

Maybe...with that many units, it's tough to consider all the possible different variables. The biggest weakness is that I think you're going to lose speeders faster than you think...even if they're moving 12" (and need 6's) even one nob biker squad with 4 pK nobs and a warboss will toss out 20 S9/S10 attacks on the charge, and any hits will almost automatically penetrate.

Might work, although even with doom, you essentially need to collapse an entire army on one squad. you might kill off one squad of bikers, but my bet would be that you end up winning on combat res, which means your squads are pretty torn-up too. Plus, the whole thing is more or less predicated on mindwarring the painboy. Fail that, and I don't think you're doing enough wounds, unless you're running three squads of banshees. Even then....9 S5 attacks, 4.5 hits, 2.25 wounds, say 2 past the 5+ save. 81 S3 attacks, 41 hits, 7 wounds, say 5 past the 5+ save. Dooming adds another 4-5 wounds after saves...

Centurian99 wrote:

whitedragon wrote:Seriously, a much more effective take all comers list for eldar includes 1 or 2 gaint bike seer councils. They are crazy resilient and can pump out wounds in CC to everything besides terminators and biker nobs really.

That's my operating theory right now. Building up my eldar between commissions, and right now my plan is to include a full jetlock council and some wraithlords, to give me a prayer against the dual nob bikerz. It's still not a good one, but it's the best shot I think exists.

I agree about that unit. I, however, have shelved the jetlocks for the time being. The reason is that terminators are the best unit in the space marine codex, and nob bikers are the "best"/most popular unit in the ork codex. The space marines are the most populous army, and the orks are regarded as the most successful army in tourney 40k.

That is a recipe for facing a lot of termies and nob bikers in a tourney...

eldrad and harlequins backed up by around 4 bright lance hits per turn is an answer for terminators. And it doesn't get pushed and pulled by lash, but really the only difference we are talking about is trading eldrad and harlequins for a jetseer and jetlocks i think. You're going to risk some wraithsight fails if you play your bike council aggressively, whereas the shadowseer and eldrad tend to stay closer to the wraithlords. 6 in one, half a dozen in the other.

The Wraithlords are much more vulnerable than fireprisms/falcons. Karandras is a much better choice because of his smaller base size against the nobz. Also, he infiltrates and fleets, which could be a nasty surprise in a take all comers list.

Finding a way to fit fire dragons in will be even better because of multiple land raiders and transports.

This has been a really educational thread. Nob bikers are seriously the devil.

I love Phil Kelly's Dexes but he is guilty of always including one uber unit. Dakka Fexes for nids, unkillable Falcons for eldar (although they are not so uber thee days, but still good) and Nob Bikers now that trump all before them. Still, I prefer his overall excellent codexes with one broke unit to the garbage of codexes like the poor Dark Angels.

sabote wrote:
I can see 1 coucil in the 1500 to 1800 range but two seems like you would run out of points for anything else to deal with other armies. I have pretty much run a council on bikes at 6 or 7 warlocks and that is alot of points. Start mounting units in waveserpents, even cheap ones and you are out of points fast.

I may not know Eldar, but I do know Seer Council. If you have two squads, what else do you need to deal with other armies?

Step 1. Show up
Step 2. (insert dying sounds .mp3)
Step 3. Profit

Razerous wrote:
Um I dont mean to drivial on but.. a multi charge from a seer concil squad & some harlies.. (doomed if you fancy, not nessicary) the I6-7 harlies put a couple rending wounds on the squad & then the slighly slower (but faster than ork) seers start dishing out str 9 hits.

Now if youve got a proper nobz biker squad with a few wounds on a few models.. the str 8+ (Vaping) hits still have to be put on unwounded models..right?

You may want to look at what witchblades and singing spears do in CC. they are only S9 against vehicles. against non-vehicles they always wound on a 2+, but they are still considered S3 then. It's still going to be fairly hard for a squad of warlocks on bikes to take down a squad of nob bikers. They just don't have enough attacks, where the nobs have alot, at a usually high strength.

My take on this is that you have to deny the nobs some of their main advantages.

4+ cover save, 3+ Turbo boost sv
T5, T6 boss
Feel no pain
2 W

I think massed str 8 fire power is the best way eldar have to deal with nobs. With Str 8 fire power you bypass feel no pain and their 2 wounds. 3 Warwalkers with EML is only like 210 and shoots 6 missiles at 48in. 2 squads of 3 all with Missiles that are guided should put the hurt on bikes. At least enough to where other options for dealing with them become more viable.

sourclams wrote:

sabote wrote:
I can see 1 coucil in the 1500 to 1800 range but two seems like you would run out of points for anything else to deal with other armies. I have pretty much run a council on bikes at 6 or 7 warlocks and that is alot of points. Start mounting units in waveserpents, even cheap ones and you are out of points fast.

I may not know Eldar, but I do know Seer Council. If you have two squads, what else do you need to deal with other armies?

Step 1. Show up
Step 2. (insert dying sounds .mp3)
Step 3. Profit

QFT. That's what I'm trying to tell everyone. The seer council is only 1 notch worse than Nob Bikerz because they don't have two wounds!

I have run the jetlock unit for a long time so yeah I know how effetive it is. I ran it all thru ard boyz and into the finals. Sometimes it did great other times very average. It would just seem 2 units at such a low point total leaves you will little options. Blood Krushers would cause it issues. A librarian that gets null zone off against warding with the standard termi assualt squad will pound them into the ground. Heck a tatical squad of marines could spend 3 turns fighting them unless you brought something in to help.

Maybe I will just give it a try but thats a heck o lot of points.

lowkii wrote:My take on this is that you have to deny the nobs some of their main advantages.

4+ cover save, 3+ Turbo boost sv
T5, T6 boss
Feel no pain
2 W

I think massed str 8 fire power is the best way eldar have to deal with nobs. With Str 8 fire power you bypass feel no pain and their 2 wounds. 3 Warwalkers with EML is only like 210 and shoots 6 missiles at 48in. 2 squads of 3 all with Missiles that are guided should put the hurt on bikes. At least enough to where other options for dealing with them become more viable.

Eldar just don't have enough, even if you go with 2 WW /w EML. 12 shots, 9 hits if they're guided, and 8 wounds. 4 bikers dead if a 4+, less if its a 3+, -1 if the ork player takes a hit on the warboss. I'm assuming you screen the WW with something, but with 2 bikers squads, they're going to tear through your screen in nothing flat.

Unless you can negate their cover save, I just don't think shooting is a reliable option, because you're counting on your opponent to essentially roll poorer than average.

Eldar just don't have good options. Tau, Chaos, SM, and Tyranids have good counters, while Eldar (along with Witchhunters and Daemonhunters) have some OK counters. (actually, penitent engines for witchhunters will toast the nobz easily, and I've theorized that penitent-engine spam is now a viable and deadly combination). Eldar aren't screwed, per se (the only armies I'd classify as screwed are Necrons and Guard).

Well, Guard has a prayer (even if its not much of one), but Necrons is, as far as I can tell, totally screwed.

Centurian99, you can guide more than one unit. Eldrad can cast 3 times. Forming a central firing area with Dark Reapers, War Walkers and more can turn the nobs into mush. Any cc combo afterward can mop them up. As for the 2nd squad there are so many options. I think 10 wraithguard could screen them, the shooties, well. Your movements have to be planned carefully but thats what Eldar players have to do anyway. All kinds of pinning weapons are in the Eldar armory, this will slow them down.

There are enough exotic builds available in 5e that have a fair chance of beating nob bikers. These lists are not as well known but that does not deny them their prowess against nob bikers.

One major disadvantage of nob bikers is the extremely low number of units they can field. At 1750 you often only see three total units in a nob biker list. In a multiple objective based mission such as Seize Ground with DoW deployment and only 5 turns played it is very possible that a mobile army with many scoring units can beat the nob biker list hands down.

It is more than a list building exercise to beat nob bikers. You should exploit their weaknesses to captilize on the opportunity to achieve victory by understanding the mission rules. Two very fast resilient units that excel in close combat cannot be all places upon the battlefield at once.

This type of thinking is a better approach to beating nob bikers on a consistent basis with average luck at best.

G

I have play tested a combo of 3 vibro cannons, 6 EML's and 8 harlies with kisses and troup master with power weapon.

He had 9 nob bikers and a warboss to my 6 war walkers [EML], 3 vibros and the 8 harlies.

This was a test not a battle so we both deployed our units ona 6x4 as usual, now he got first turn and turnbo boosted. and was in range of the vibros and EML. my shooting went like this, 2 vibros hit, got 4 on the D6 at S7 and got one wound, they passeed the pinning test. 4 EML's hit and 2 instant killed nobs [he decided not to try the warboss just incase of this lol].

Now he charged the harlies and the harlies struck first. i got 21 kiss attacks and 4 power weapon attacks. hit 12 times with kisses [ 3 rendering] and hit once with power weapon. i inflicted 6 wounds and he failed 3 of them. and the harlies lost all but the troup master, he stayed and that the end of the road test, but im sure with the rest of our armies i could have taken down the nob squad