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Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Shep wrote:

ricekake87 wrote:so does it cost more than the original 20???

9 dollars more for 20.

Each guardsman costs an additional $0.45!!!

Certainly worthy of internet ranting

$35 => $44 is a 33% hike.

Even better. In 1999 the same 20 Cats cost you $22, now they cost you $44. that's 10% inflation a year.

Must be the price of steroids.

ANYWAY, Wargames Factory has preovers for something like 1300 sprues of greatcoat infantry.

http://www.wargamesfactory.com/BookingRetrieve.aspx?ID=42195

And 70 pages of discussion over what they will look like

http://wargamesfactory.lefora.com/2009/01/29/sci-fi-greatcoat-infantry/page70/

I am so down for getting those figures when they become available.

If I didn't already have over 100 Tallarn infantry, I might actually care about the price increase tied to the repackaging.

GW still has those $8 5-packs if numbers are really an issue. Those have always been a better deal than the 20-man box, but they are just snap-togethers and they are probably not the best for converting.

Shep wrote:

ricekake87 wrote:so does it cost more than the original 20???

9 dollars more for 20.

Each guardsman costs an additional $0.45!!!

Certainly worthy of internet ranting

Well, let's see. On the one hand, the not-quite-2-quarter price increase is not much per model. Unless you look at it from a percetage standpoint, at which point it becomes "significant". But let's look at a larger picture. In my last game with my guard at 1850 points, I put about 245 Cadians into the mix. And Catachans. And even some Tallarns. a $0.45 USD price increase per model on that army, should someone decide to build it now, would come out to spending 110.25 USD more. MORE for an army at 1850 points.

Worthy of internet ranting? Certainly not for me, I already have all my guard models. For someone else? A question we will all have to answer individually.

Whatever your personal opinion, it's hard to argue that 110 bucks that could be spent on whatever else is a good thing to just be happy about throwing into GW's pocket. Yeah, go ahead ad argue recession, business principal, costs, even a twin tailed comet in the sky if you like. But if you expect people to be happy about it, you can expect to be disappointed.

skrulnik wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Your comparison is, I feel, off the mark. Warlord Games ECW infantry costs £18 for 40. Perrys' ACW infantry cost £15 for 36. Wargames Factory Celts cost £13.60 for 32. Given the immense variability between the model needs of different historical games, the only universal benchmark is £ per head. I omitted FoW and Foundry here because one is a game with a very different scale, and the other deals exclusively in metals, so comparisons to GW (who deals mostly in plastics, after all) are of limited usefulness. Warmachine and Hordes simply are hellishly expensive games.

To say that historical games are more expensive because you need lots of infantry is ignoring the fact that 40k (and Fantasy) armies typically are composed of more than just line infantry, and those other sets (elite troops, vehicles, etc) typically have an even worse cash-for-miniatures ratio.

Games Workshop's pricing in this instance is indefensible, doubly so if the rumored 25% price increase goes into effect in June.

My price comparison is based on how much cash you drop for a useable army. For most game systems, I have found that $200-$500 is the range, including FoW. In building armies for the new Field of Glory game, I dropped close to $300 for metals and plastics for 28mm Celts. Also, Artillery and Cavalry for historicals are mcuh more expensive than the troops. For the same reasons as GWs stuff. Each player needs less of them.

I am not defending GW's prices. Just pointing out that they are the model for the industry, not a rogue that is just out to gouge us.

For historical stuff, the new plastics are not that much cheaper than the metals.
But the plastics are priced because of competition, not because of material costs.
The GW universe has no such competition for like figures.

If you would like to continue this discussion, maybe a new topic in Discussions would be a good idea?

Well, I just spent 895.00 for my new Guard Army and I still need 3 chimeras!

Granted this is a mech force with 3 Vendettas, 4 Russes, 6 Chimeras and a pair of Griffons, but still

No other game gets that high for a single standard size tournament army.

Not complaining, my own dam fault for loving the models and liking 5th edition enough to get back into the game, but really nothing costs like GW.

The stupidest part of this box is that, in the era of the 20 man box, the codex was very clear. It said you "may" replace two guardsmen with a heavy weapons team.

In the new codex it simply says "replace", which seems to me that you now have to have a heavy weapons team in a squad. If this is true, then they're selling you a box that won't even make a legal unit. Kinda stupid if you ask me, it should come with the two heavy weapons sprues (one for crew, one for the weapons).

Also, sergeants only have a few very limited amount of options and none of them include having a lasgun. They only come with a laspistol and a chainsword. They can have a bolt pistol, a plasma pistol, or a power sword for more points.

All of my sargeants have lasguns. All of my sargeants will continue to have lasguns. All of my sargeants will be shooting one shot at 12" and getting extra rifle butts to people's faces. Any of those TFG's who seriously has a problem with that isn't worth playing anyway, so I ain't worried...

So with the price hike, DKOK isn't as bad an option anymore, price wise/comparitavely I mean.


GG

generalgrog wrote:So with the price hike, DKOK isn't as bad an option anymore, price wise/comparitavely I mean.


GG

Essentially a kick in the balls doesn't seem so bad anymore when the only other option for showing up is a punch in the cock? I'd say that really sums it up, sad as it may be.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:The stupidest part of this box is that, in the era of the 20 man box, the codex was very clear. It said you "may" replace two guardsmen with a heavy weapons team.

In the new codex it simply says "replace", which seems to me that you now have to have a heavy weapons team in a squad. If this is true, then they're selling you a box that won't even make a legal unit. Kinda stupid if you ask me, it should come with the two heavy weapons sprues (one for crew, one for the weapons).

Also, sergeants only have a few very limited amount of options and none of them include having a lasgun. They only come with a laspistol and a chainsword. They can have a bolt pistol, a plasma pistol, or a power sword for more points.

All of my sargeants have lasguns. All of my sargeants will continue to have lasguns. All of my sargeants will be shooting one shot at 12" and getting extra rifle butts to people's faces. Any of those TFG's who seriously has a problem with that isn't worth playing anyway, so I ain't worried...

In the new codices, weapon choices are listed under large "OPTION" headings, and are in no way mandatory.

I can't believe there's no storm bolters for officers anymore, total bs.

Stop complaining.

The new codex brings many cool options - so what if it removes a little of the old variants?

Storm bolters was a silly idea anyway, lasguns or not for sergeants doesn't mean much when considering all the new shiny toys IG has been blessed with. Two-wound heavy weapon teams is also a minor change (doesn't affect game play much and is a quick conversion).

The whole purpose of a codex is to limit options, making races play/feel different. Also fewer options makes it easier to balance codexes.

There are times when GW make big changes that makes whole armies invalid (such as when I had to scrap all my Rending-Hormagaunts) but for the most parts their changes actually makes the game better. IMHO anyway.

Focus on the good stuff - instead of bitching about nerfs.

kendoka wrote:The whole purpose of a codex is to limit options

And here I was thinking that the purpose of a Codex was to give choice to players to theme their force as they saw fit, creating an environment of varied and flavourful lists.

(deadpan)

How silly of me.

(/deadpan)

Wow, HBMC, you said that so much more delicately than I was inclined to.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And here I was thinking that the purpose of a Codex was to give choice to players to theme their force as they saw fit, creating an environment of varied and flavourful lists.

Very true, but I'd only get my knickers in a twist with regards to tournament games, to be honest. I tend to play friendly games with mates where FOC's are more of a guideline.

If we use anything weird, wonderful & fluffy (or more sensible, like IG Sgts with las-guns) then we always state it to our opponent & usually hand wave most things with allowing the other player to field something equally fluffy, or ignore it if they are over the agreed points cost by 20 or 30 points.

guard have become to expensive for me 33% increase (£18 for 20 - £24 for 20) not a cool move at all. bring out a new codex and then outprice the army. well done GW.

kendoka wrote:Focus on the good stuff - instead of bitching about nerfs.

Um, OK, what stuff are you intending for us to focus on?
- Loss of Drop Troops Doctrine, loss of Cameoline & Carapace Doctrines?
- 40-pt Ogryns (with mandatory 50-pt Bonehead)?
- 16-pt Storms (vs 10-pt ISTs)?
- 55-pt Chimeras (vs 35-pt Rhinos)?
- 15-pt Plasma (like BS4 Sv3+ SM)?
- 15-pt MLs?
- 20-pt Lascannon?
- Grossly-overpriced new tank variants *cough* Punisher *cough* Eradicator *cough*?

Or maybe the new models?
- 10 IG for $22 vs 20 IG for $35?

What?

As a Praetorian player, I find it amusing when other people complain about prices per model. xD

Well, that is your choice though...

Well, all of my guard will look like sh*t now because I'll just buy the snap-together ones ...


-A.

Good thing I already have 100 of the guys, but still...

kendoka wrote:Two-wound heavy weapon teams is also a minor change (doesn't affect game play much and is a quick conversion).

For heavy weapon squads in an infantry squad, maybe. But for Heavy Weapon Teams, where they are the only model, it is a much larger problem, because you can't assign those strength 7 wounds to anyone else BUT a HWS.

The price increase seems ridiculous just be easier for me make 2nd armoured fist. i have to much infantry as is ill proably be buying russes 5th ed

kendoka wrote:Stop complaining.

The new codex brings many cool options - so what if it removes a little of the old variants?

Storm bolters was a silly idea anyway, lasguns or not for sergeants doesn't mean much when considering all the new shiny toys IG has been blessed with. Two-wound heavy weapon teams is also a minor change (doesn't affect game play much and is a quick conversion).

The whole purpose of a codex is to limit options, making races play/feel different. Also fewer options makes it easier to balance codexes.

There are times when GW make big changes that makes whole armies invalid (such as when I had to scrap all my Rending-Hormagaunts) but for the most parts their changes actually makes the game better. IMHO anyway.

Focus on the good stuff - instead of bitching about nerfs.

Seriously, this post angers me.

Storm bolters were not broken.

I can understand the SGT thing to an extent. Sgts need to be different from the rest of the squad so that they can be picked out. But now I have to break tons of models that are already painted and ready to go, kitbash shotguns or fiddle with bolters to make them fit, and go from there. I don't want to dremel the lasgun away from my valhallan figure, but if it's what I have to do, then it's what I have to do. My alternative is to buy over $40 worth of guys who are all the same pose. That pisses me off.

Valhallan42nd wrote:I can understand the SGT thing to an extent. Sgts need to be different from the rest of the squad so that they can be picked out. But now I have to break tons of models that are already painted and ready to go, kitbash shotguns or fiddle with bolters to make them fit, and go from there.

I don't want to dremel the lasgun away from my valhallan figure, but if it's what I have to do, then it's what I have to do. My alternative is to buy over $40 worth of guys who are all the same pose. That pisses me off.

Screw them, don't do it.

I didn't re-base my Terminators. I didn't play ball with the Stormtrooper Sergeants supposedly having HP&CCW, and I'm not re-basing my Tallarn MLs, and I'm not cutting up my metal Tallarn models to satisfy some slow's desire to change the Codex rules and equipment.

In my Guard, my Sergeants my exchange the LP&CCW for Lasguns for FREE.

Or if the opponent insists, then the Lasgun "counts as" LP&CCW on the Sergeant.

But to cut up minis for no good reason? Madness & absurdity.


If GW *really* wants me to field LP&CCW Sergeants, then they can offer a trade-in program.

Or just sell individual Sergeant models like they did before Bitz went down the crapper.


Otherwise, it's just another reason to hate the new Codex.

GW always make stupid changes that makes no sense.
It messes up the modeling aspect as well, just so every have to rebuy or convert just so they are legit in this edition. Then next edition they'll change it back and oops again!

As an aside, what are the sgt options for an IG infantry squad?

Says the guy with the eager clippers.

Valhallan42nd wrote:As an aside, what are the sgt options for an IG infantry squad?

Says the guy with the eager clippers.

Sgts come with pistol CC (no lasgun option)

Options are:
Melta bombs
Bolt Pistol
Power Weapon (NEW!!)
Plasma Pistol

but don't look for any of those in the new 33% more expensive boxes.

So, they can't take shotguns. Huh. I thought they could.

Well that sucks.

Valhallan42nd wrote:So, they can't take shotguns. Huh. I thought they could.

Well that sucks.

Veteran sergeants can have shotguns. So can the rest of the veteran squad.

Raxmei wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:So, they can't take shotguns. Huh. I thought they could.

Well that sucks.

Veteran sergeants can have shotguns. So can the rest of the veteran squad.

Now I have a burning red rage. "Well, at least the bastards can get shotguns. Shotguns are neat (concept wise), and I can easily make lasguns into shotguns". I can't magic an across-the-chest-molded-to-the-torso lasgun into a laspistol/ccw. Mother .