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Druidic wrote:non of that comes free, it all costs, and has to be paid for somewhere, which is included in the increased prices!

Games Workshop loves people like you. The rest of us will be at the discounters paying 30% less than you.

I use discounters as well, I also use Ebay, I also don't buy stuff.... period. If I can get away with painting and using the stuff I already have I will rather then shell out money on stuff I don't really need! (Please don't look at my gallary and the shelves of stuff I've yet to paint... its embarassing)

I'm not a huge GW fan, I dropped out of the hobbey for some years due to feeling cheated by them, but I came back cause I like their stuff and the game.

I also play alot of other games by other companies a hell of alot more thn GW stuff (I happen to be playing Mordheim more then anything at the moment, but will probably play Wings of War or Magic tonight instead!)

I can't quite get my head arround the demonisation of a company making profits. They make games and figures you enjoy, surely its therefor their right to ask you to pay for them, and if your willing to pay more then market rate, then all the better for them!

A hell of a lot of games companies have gone to the wall in the last 30 years, and GW is still here, there is no greater testament that they have their model right.

the May WD states there will be a price increase in june for metals,plastics and hobby items-doesnt say how much or which items exactly.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Mort wrote:Obviously over the years, their bean-counters have determined (through whatever means they use) that raising prices doesn't affect their bottom-line as negatively as some of the posters here assume.

That is untrue. When GW did the big "kill the e-tailers" thing to cap discounts at 20%, that was in effect, a 20+% price increase for a huge number of GW customrs. In response to the pending effective price increase, people bought like crazy at 30+% off. The result was that the market was flooded with low-cost product for over a year. The massive supply increase suppressed demand for years to come.

Excellent point. However, with that being said, there are a few more details to keep in mind.

If a customer 'bought like crazy' in response to the coming change, there's at least some likelihood they weren't going to buy whatever it was they bought, until goaded into doing so by the coming price-hike anyway. As such, GW in many cases sold more product than they would have, had they not announced the move.

Meanwhile, sales are still continuing even after the price-hikes of the past. Sure, folks such as yourself are smiling with satisfaction that you were able to get some product at the better price before the price-hike/policy change, true, and there are some stores who did like you suggested and made purchases before the pending change in policy, too. But I'd be surprised if there's any significant number of such stores that simply cut out orders completely after the policy-change.

The mistake lots of people make is that they look at the situation in a vacuum - as if they and their buddies and other pre-existing players are GW's only customer base. When actually, there are new players constantly jumping in, too. Not to mention, new product being released on a regular basis that did not qualify for the 'cheaper prices', because those products didn't exist yet at the time of the price hike or policy change.

If you're referring to wholesale prices/sales to stores, and stores 'buying like crazy' before the price-change, that's also a distinct possibilty. Again, though, there's no guarantee that all of the product that Store X bought before the price change would ever have been ordered anyway, had there been no price-change. There's no doubt that some players/stores took advantage of the 'early warning' of the coming price-change/discount modification - just as some players/stores will do between now and June 1st (if that is indeed the new pricing date). But just as in years past, GW will get through it by virtue of direct sales, continued re-orders from existing businesses, release of new products with high demand, etc.

JohnHwangDD wrote:In my case, I bought very heavily on discount to complete my armies, then didn't buy anything for a good 3+ years, then bought only bitz for a couple years (until GW discontinued "proper" bitz service). It wasn't until Apoc that I started buying any volumes at all.

In my case, just getting back into one of their games - I didn't have a choice. For all intents and purposes, I was a 'new player', and those types of players are still coming in (or returning).

If you hadn't bought heavily with the discount before the change, are you 100% sure that you would have bought the same products at regular prices over the next 3 years?

Do you think your buying habits are 'the norm'? Do you think the average 40K player on this forum bought like mad like you did, then didn't buy anything for 3+ years? I'd be surprise if that was the norm, and not the exception, John. But that's just a guess.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
So based on this experience, significant price changes can cause a lot of negative churn and disruption in their normal market.

Sure, it can - but I was just suggesting that GW has a history of price-increases and they've probably anticipated fall-out based on that history. They have pros that look at these things that are a heck of a lot smarter than we are, probably, when it comes to the business end. If raising prices 3-5% on a lot of their stock was going to sink them, I just believe that they'd have a better grasp of that possibility than we would.

For over a decade now I've heard people echo some of the comments in this thread - yet GW still keeps plugging along, new products coming out, stores open in tons of different places, etc, despite price-increases that anger a segment of their playerbase. Being frustrated about the price-hikes is natural, but I just don't see how it's going to significantly affect them this time more than previous instances where this or something similar has taken place. The economic slump didn't start yesterday, they probably have some kind of indication how its affecting them, and yet they've decided to make the educated and informed decision to raise prices. I definitely could be wrong, though, and GW could start closing down all of its stores this summer for all I know.

Thanks for the discussion.

Mort wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:When GW did the big "kill the e-tailers" thing to cap discounts at 20%, that was in effect, a 20+% price increase for a huge number of GW customrs. In response to the pending effective price increase, people bought like crazy at 30+% off. The result was that the market was flooded with low-cost product for over a year. The massive supply increase suppressed demand for years to come.

If a customer 'bought like crazy' in response to the coming change, there's at least some likelihood they weren't going to buy whatever it was they bought, until goaded into doing so by the coming price-hike anyway.

As such, GW in many cases sold more product than they would have, had they not announced the move.

Meanwhile, sales are still continuing even after the price-hikes of the past.

I'd be surprised if there's any significant number of such stores that simply cut out orders completely after the policy-change.

... there are new players constantly jumping in, too.

Not to mention, new product being released on a regular basis that did not qualify for the 'cheaper prices', ...

If you're referring to wholesale prices/sales to stores,

No doubt that people bought more than they normally would have, and then they hoarded.

GW got one really, really good quarter of sales out of this, from those players who had the means to purchase more in advance, or to shift hobby spend around from one game to GW.

Sales continued, of course, but at a minimal rate, rather than a normal rate.

The e-tailers got one last big bang on the way out. GW retail and other B&M got hammered because people made that one last e-buy instead of normal B&M sales. A *lot* of stores folded in the aftermath.

Many new players simply bought out of pre-sold stock via 3rd party / eBay sales - the massive supply increase depressed all second-hand sales. Remember that GW B&M was much smaller then.

New product is a small add-on, and probably sold less than expected, as most existing players were flush with old product.

Store inventory levels wouldn't change, there would be no reason to buy more.

Mort wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:In my case, I bought very heavily on discount to complete my armies, then didn't buy anything for a good 3+ years, then bought only bitz for a couple years (until GW discontinued "proper" bitz service). It wasn't until Apoc that I started buying any volumes at all.

In my case, just getting back into one of their games ...

If you hadn't bought heavily with the discount before the change, are you 100% sure that you would have bought the same products at regular prices over the next 3 years?

Do you think your buying habits are 'the norm'?

Do you think the average 40K player on this forum bought like mad like you did, then didn't buy anything for 3+ years?

You didn't buy used from another player getting out? That's what I've always recommended to n00bs.

It didn't matter. I had trade stock, that allowed me to trade new for new at full retail. The $20 box of Tacticals became a $20 box of Empire Soldiers or whatever. Or I simply sold and pocketed the difference (depressing GW sales). Regardless, GW lost out.

I don't know if my buying habits are the norm, although I will note that my total spend is at the median for members on the site. I'm probably not too far off the norm.

I don't know what others did, but I would suspect they followed similar patterns, but not as extreme.

Mort wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
So based on this experience, significant price changes can cause a lot of negative churn and disruption in their normal market.

They have pros that look at these things that are a heck of a lot smarter than we are,

Being frustrated about the price-hikes is natural, but I just don't see how it's going to significantly affect them this time more than previous instances where this or something similar has taken place.

Thanks for the discussion.

I strongly doubt that GW's "pros" are collectively smarter than I am. If GW's "pros" really were smarter, they would have wound down the e-tailers in a more progressive fashion to minimize disruption to their constant revenue model. Besides, for a long time, GW was more fan-run than an actual business.

If the price hike is small, in line with inflation, then no, it won't be a problem. If it's large, it'll distort things and cause problems.

Same!

The e-tailers got one last big bang on the way out. GW retail and other B&M got hammered because people made that one last e-buy instead of normal B&M sales. A *lot* of stores folded in the aftermath.

Uhhh...what?? Care to elaborate on the 'lot of stores going out of business ' part? That's the first thing I have ever heard of it. Seriously, nothing. Never been brought up on any retailer board. Never heard a B and M retailer complain about it. Had ZERO negative effect on my stores.

The result was that the market was flooded with low-cost product for over a year. The massive supply increase suppressed demand for years to come.

Again, not in my experience. The plural of anecdote is not data. A few people buy up a bunch and don't buy locally for a while. How much did they buy locally before? And how many people buy that way anyway?

Mostly it was e-tailers who folded, along with the "extra" hobby stores in town.

I think it'd be nice if someone put together as an article, that get periodically updated, a series of reviews for some of the better online retailers. It seems people are constantly having to ask about it.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:3-5 for this year... Personally I'm getting tired of it happening every single year. It just seems like a bit of an insult to us. But I'm sure glad it isn't going to be a complete grab as some have said.

At least give us some 'value added' like give us 3 more guardsman or a spruce of all the special weapons for a few bucks more. To half the number of models that seem exactly the same just seems completely ridiculous. $5 for a new battleforce is well and good in my view because of the sentinel and new command squad that's included... It has all the options & other weapons, which is great. But if you're going to charge $35 for 10 guys, they'd better be very special.

In perspective, do we get any added value with Petrol/Fuel? it goes up every month and sometimes week. and sometimes it even goes down. We still complain, but yet if we want to get to work, we fork out the money or 'slug' into metro cities or even take another form of commute.

similarly, we can buy other models that are cheaper, or even mix and match or just fork over the money and use the GW stuff..

in the end, the choice is there.. buy it or don't.. but complaining about it is like pissing in the wind...

Pissing in the wind.... isn't that like getting your own back?

I'll get my coat.....