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Moopy wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:In DA and BA, Scouts aren't recruits. They're full Marines.

In UM, Scouts have lower stats, because they're less-experienced.

DA/BA were holdouts of the older marine codex where ALL scouts had the higher stat line. UM changed/reconcepted many things about marines such as getting free ML/flamers for 10 man squads, weaker scouts, etc.

It will be very interesting to see what they do with the other chapters now that weaker scouts exist in the 40k. I foresee the other chapters getting weaker scouts (those that are NOT full marines) being moved to troops, while full marines that take on an infiltrating roll will be elites. However, there should be a clear distinction between the two.

Actually, UM reverted scouts to the lower stats from RT / 2E, which is more appropriate for a Troops pick.

On a point-for-point value basis, full-stat Scouts with there USRs are unquestionably better than regular Tacticals. That is why Scouts need to be non-Scoring or else lower stats.

I expect that we'll see BT scouts drop stats as they are taken as part of Troops, and possibly SW as well. DA and BA will probably keep the higher stats because they have doublewing and AM as Troops.

quadro28 wrote:I was talking to a black shirt last weekend and he told me that the next few codexes are going to be marine updates. BA being one of them.

now that's what i like to hear, thanxs dude you made my day

Bishop of the Blackrose wrote:

quadro28 wrote:I was talking to a black shirt last weekend and he told me that the next few codexes are going to be marine updates. BA being one of them.

now that's what i like to hear, thanxs dude you made my day

Happy to help.
The only sad thing is that I was looking forward to the new DE, but the same guy told me that DE shouldn't be out until the end of 2010 because they are completely revamping their mini line.
But who am I to complain. Space marines sell so thats who gets the update. lol

Bishop of the Blackrose wrote:

quadro28 wrote:I was talking to a black shirt last weekend and he told me that the next few codexes are going to be marine updates. BA being one of them.

now that's what i like to hear, thanxs dude you made my day

Seconded, thats nice to hear others give similar reports.
I have almost given up on this thread due to all the nonsense.

I hope I am not hitting a wasps nest by this. Blood Angels players seem to be constantly complaining about having received an update for fifth edition, and expect they deserve a second fifth edition update before the other third edition armies get anything (three updates before Dark Eldar, because Games Workshop hates them!). Sorry, but that is how it looks to the rest of us. Was the update really that bad? In this thread, people are complaining that it made you Codex. You were Codex before, as far as I could tell. Please, do correct me if I am wrong, but did you not only lose Furious Charge, have Death Company simplified and gain Assault Marines as Troops? To what I can tell, everything else is the same, just updated. If I am right, what is the big deal? If I am wrong, please do explain it to me so I can understand.

I play BA, and while the current codex is far from perfect and has the inconsistencies of all the other variant SM codices it's honestly not so bad. It certainly needs to be proofed and edited, but sadly that will never happen.

In short I play BA and I'd rather see them update the older books before they bothered with ours.

Elric: I think the update REALLY is that bad.

But then again i dont think we should get a new codex before anyone else.

Even though I love all space marines with all my heart I think its a little messed up that they get all the updates first, but then again we must consider why GW is updating marines first, then realize that its not really their fault. Its our fault for purchasing the marines and making them so popular(I know they cram marines down everyone's throats, but we fall for it ).
I personally think the nid codex needs an update. Their codex is the only one I've read that has 100% useless upgrades for their troops simply because it isn't in the rules anymore.(I've read most, but not all of them.)
I'm excited for the new DE, but I realize that GW is making a good decision by taking their time and redoing the whole mini line. They should be cool when they come out.

Jus a few thoughts of mine.

@Elric: It's no more tiresome than DE players whining about how their partial update "doesn't count".

Personally, I like the BA WD Codex as a free, touranment-legal preview of the actual Codex, and am OK that it's hopefully going to be a more couple years before I need to shell out $25+ on a new Codex.

I am also constantly perplexed why people with otherwise competitive Codices keep clamoring for changes, when GW history shows that Codices get changed but generally not for the benefit of the player.

@Neconilis: That's very nice of you, but for those more selfish BA playas (like me) what do you want? (Apart from Scouts as troops)

Personally, I agree with Neconilis, and it works well enough as it is.

Bla_Ze wrote:Elric: I think the update REALLY is that bad

I had a vague sense that you may have been moderately disappointed in it before you made that post, but you have still not said why. Did they turn your Crimson Marines into Vermilion Marines? Does getting Assault Marines as Troops ruin your day? Is it just because all the cool kids hate it? I am not seeing the why and am curious, because Blood Angels players come across as the most vocal whiners on the Internet. I am looking to give you guys the benefit of the doubt and learn just what is so bad about the current situation, but I am not getting it yet.

Elric of Grans wrote:

Bla_Ze wrote:Elric: I think the update REALLY is that bad

I had a vague sense that you may have been moderately disappointed in it before you made that post, but you have still not said why. Did they turn your Crimson Marines into Vermilion Marines? Does getting Assault Marines as Troops ruin your day? Is it just because all the cool kids hate it? I am not seeing the why and am curious, because Blood Angels players come across as the most vocal whiners on the Internet. I am looking to give you guys the benefit of the doubt and learn just what is so bad about the current situation, but I am not getting it yet.

how about the 3 painted (terminator, jump pack, and on foot) sanguinary high priests that i have painted that i can't use? (because stupid corbulo has a chainsword and my reg infantry one has a PW) how about machine spirit on land raiders and drop pods that is BS2? did BA somehow forget to enable Windows Update on their machinery's operating system? granted that's because the 4th ed codex version was BS2 also but the web codex was supposedly "updated" to 5th edition according to the stamp on the cover. how about tactical squad marines that cost more than regular codex ones yet are actually WORSE because they don't have combat tactics? (i'm counting the cost of additional marines to the squad since the first batch of 5 is artificially inflated to include the "free" death co guy you get) those are just a few nuggets from the top of my head that could have easily been fixed when the codex was "updated". the codex is still powerful but you put all your eggs in one death co flavored basket. prior, the whole army had a disadvantage but also an advantage. just like the chaos codex, the power wasn't too much reduced just the flavor.

So... not as bad as everyone makes it out to be then? Get back in line behind Necron, Dark Eldar, Sisters, Grey Knights, Tyranids, Tau, Ad Mech, Lost and the Damned, etc, etc, etc.

I actually do not know why people keep complaining.
Whinging is not gonna do anything (cept whinging to GW) just get on with it, make the best of it, and most of all REVEL IN THE BLACK RAGE!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

Elric of Grans wrote:So... not as bad as everyone makes it out to be then? Get back in line behind Necron, Dark Eldar, Sisters, Grey Knights, Tyranids, Tau, Ad Mech, Lost and the Damned, etc, etc, etc.

Pretty much. Like I said before, what the codex needs most is for it not to look like a draft, the rules for better or worse are certainly playable all around. Other codices certainly are older and more in need of an update. Besides, even if I don't play anything else seeing the new stuff for other factions is always interesting.

That being said, I really don't know why you feel that BA players are the most outspoken in regards to complaints and whining. There certainly are some, every faction has that, but never once felt we were the worse. At least in this particular community. Though the faction who I feel are the worse do also wear power armor.

I am sick and tired of EVRY faction whinging for a spanking new codex. Even the Space Marine, IG, AND eldar. And they just came out!

No question, everyone complains about the Games Workshop policy regarding army updates. I read many fora and the Blood Angels players seem to stand out to me. Probably because you have the Dark Eldar players moving into the seventh Kübler-Ross stage, Necron players have returned to their Tomb Worlds, and no one listens to Eldar players anyway (sure, we get it, you hate Bright Lances --- the rest of us will gladly take them off you!), then you have Blood Angels players constantly stating that they deserve an second fifth edition update more than any third edition army deserves a first. This makes them stand out.

..wierd. I wuv them just the way they are. *cuddle*

warboss wrote:

how about the 3 painted (terminator, jump pack, and on foot) sanguinary high priests that i have painted that i can't use? (because stupid corbulo has a chainsword and my reg infantry one has a PW) how about machine spirit on land raiders and drop pods that is BS2? did BA somehow forget to enable Windows Update on their machinery's operating system? granted that's because the 4th ed codex version was BS2 also but the web codex was supposedly "updated" to 5th edition according to the stamp on the cover. how about tactical squad marines that cost more than regular codex ones yet are actually WORSE because they don't have combat tactics? (i'm counting the cost of additional marines to the squad since the first batch of 5 is artificially inflated to include the "free" death co guy you get) those are just a few nuggets from the top of my head that could have easily been fixed when the codex was "updated". the codex is still powerful but you put all your eggs in one death co flavored basket. prior, the whole army had a disadvantage but also an advantage. just like the chaos codex, the power wasn't too much reduced just the flavor.

Not only that but it made the army really inflexible.

Because you buy your squads in Either 5 or 10 man you are stuck with large blocks of points. Happen to 10pts over? Well, instead of being able to drop out one marine and solve the problem, you have to either sacrifice half a squad or take something you didn't want. yea... that's fun.

Squads had their options cut out. Hope you like A B or C (and C is over priced) because that's all you can field. Every unit looks like very other unit because there are only a few choices. Orks? Lots of options. REGULAR marines? LOTS of options. But, for some reason BA lost track of most of their inventory. Huh!

Sanguinary High Priests all took a holiday. Why? Dunno. Regular SPs are still around in the over priced honor squads.

So, to sum it up: Inflexable and bland- If I wanted to play an army like that I'd play Necrons. DA could same the exact same thing.

This wasn't a codex, it was a test run.

I don't see the current BA as bad at all.

The 5/10 man thing is fine, and less restrictive than 2E. VAS have points flexiblity, and are awesome. But they're SM, so they're supposed to be pretty rigid.

Squad options are priced the new way, and the options are pretty much normal.

SHPs never should have been available aside from Corbulo, so that's a good Fluff-based correction.

It's a solid Codex that corrects all of the excesses of the 3E Codex. If some armies have their wings clipped a bit, too bad. That happens with every new Codex, so suck it up.

After reading all yuz guyz responses, I now kinda feel that the WD codex isn't that bad. Although I would like the option of taking Sanguinary Priest, aside from that, I think it's pretty competitive. I would still like an official looking codex, I guess I miss the codex being jam packed of fluff and background stories like the "Angels of Death" book was. All in all, Blood Angels will kick a$$ no matter what their codex has.
And to "Emperor's Faithfull" yes my friend, we should all REVEL IN THE BLACK RAGE!!!!!!!!!!

Emperors Faithful wrote:I actually do not know why people keep complaining.
Whinging is not gonna do anything (cept whinging to GW) just get on with it, make the best of it, and most of all REVEL IN THE BLACK RAGE!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

Emperors Faithful wrote:I am sick and tired of EVRY faction whinging for a spanking new codex. Even the Space Marine, IG, AND eldar. And they just came out!

lol, at least you're consistent! btw, i'm whining, not whinging!

Elric of Grans wrote:then you have Blood Angels players constantly stating that they deserve an second fifth edition update more than any third edition army deserves a first. This makes them stand out.

i never said that. i agree others (like the dark eldar) deserve a codex before the blood angels do. honestly, i'd prefer if there was a standard marines book with smaller chapters represented and a second one with the founding chapters. i personally don't think that DA, SW, BT, etc deserve their own book if none of the chaos legions do. GW thinks otherwise so the least they could do is put forth a real effort. supposedly the WD "codex" was a test bed to see if they could get the sales $$ bump from a mini dex similar to what happens with a real one and new releases. well, they were repaid for their half effort with lackluster sales. btw, what was the difference between the 4th edition release of the articles and the 5th edition "update"? i lost my WDs from that era but i can't recall any differences. if there wasn't any real difference between the two other than the FAQ tacked on the end, then it's not a 5th edition codex any more than the dark eldar's.

Moopy wrote:Not only that but it made the army really inflexible.

Because you buy your squads in Either 5 or 10 man you are stuck with large blocks of points. Happen to 10pts over? Well, instead of being able to drop out one marine and solve the problem, you have to either sacrifice half a squad or take something you didn't want. yea... that's fun.
****snip****
So, to sum it up: Inflexable and bland- If I wanted to play an army like that I'd play Necrons. DA could same the exact same thing.

This wasn't a codex, it was a test run.

agreed, very bland. i don't mind the 5 or 10 man squad thing since it's fluffy and because they're generally moving towards that in all the MEQ codices (chaos and 5th ed marines have the same)

JohnHwangDD wrote:
SHPs never should have been available aside from Corbulo, so that's a good Fluff-based correction.

why, oh perpetually testy loremaster of all things grimdark? where exactly did it ever say that their was just a single sanguinary high priest?

Bishop of the Blackrose wrote:After reading all yuz guyz responses, I now kinda feel that the WD codex isn't that bad. Although I would like the option of taking Sanguinary Priest, aside from that, I think it's pretty competitive. I would still like an official looking codex, I guess I miss the codex being jam packed of fluff and background stories like the "Angels of Death" book was. All in all, Blood Angels will kick a$$ no matter what their codex has.
And to "Emperor's Faithfull" yes my friend, we should all REVEL IN THE BLACK RAGE!!!!!!!!!!

except that their is no more black rage for your squads in the new PG rated codex made suitable for those who don't like spice. i never said they weren't powerful but they just concentrated their power in one squad and a few hq's. a full death co with corbulo and a chaplain trailing is unstoppable short of a TH/SS squad or a battlecannon. i just want a reason to take points in something else. :(

@ Warbos: not for nothing but there is a black rage, although for the DC only in the form of (correct me if i'm wrong, which i know someone will) the furiouse charge (fluff wise) giving them a +1 in initiative and a +1 in strength. by the way dude, your avatar is the funniest thing this side of the mississippi.

@bishop

thanks. i saw that pic about a year ago on the net and couldn't stop laughing. it's originally from an angry baby pic that people keep photoshopping. there's also a hulk hogan and kung fu version out there. yup, they get furious charge (and i believe everyone within 12" of corbulo gets the same). my standard BA army is chaplain lemartes, full death co with jump packs, corbulo, and a bunch of stuff that doesn't matter in the end.

I'm happy with the current BA dex for the most part. I'd like it to get some holes plugged and some points adjustments for things like Razorbacks, drop pods etc to bring it in line with the current SM dex. I'm disappointed that GW didn't capitalize on the pdf format to fully update the existing dex better for 5th edition.

I'm most looking forward to a plastic upgrade sprue that might include things like plastic Baal predator bits, jump packs with iconography, and furioso dread bits.

I'm actually concerned that they'll screw something up using special characters to drive army design like the SM dex. I don't want to have to take Dante to get assault marines as troops, or Lemartes to put jump packs on the Death Company, for example.

I definitely don't think the BA need a new dex as urgently as the DE, Inquisition, and Crons.

While it'd be nice to have twin AssCan Razorbacks, I'd rather see Necrons "fixed", and then Sisters and Inquisition updated than before we get yet another round of tinkering with the BA.

No, disagreement there, but the reality is GW uses codex updates to drive model sales. Their business model requires that new rules are accompanied by new models. On both counts it is easier for them to update all the variant marine chapters than it is to redo other armies. They're tackling the low-hanging fruit, not the most deserving.

I have been playing Blood Angels for over five years now. I have seen the army go through many changes... Third, fourth and now fifth edition rules plus the new PDF codex. I started playing Blood Angels as a challenge when I heard several fellow gamers proclaim that the last codex was no longer competitive with the death of rhino rush. My first army was drop pods mixed with jump infantry. It was one of the best armies I ever played and I won many games. With the release of the PDF codex I had to completely overhaul my army list and it went through several major revisions due to 4th edition rules being replaced by 5th edition. Mephiston was a scary monster during 4th edition but he was netted by 5th edition. At one point I attempted to recreate my 3rd edition list but it just didn't work due to the changes to fielding troop choices. I took the mech approach with one unit of jump infantry and slowly honed the list. I think Blood Angels can be a top tier list in the hands of the right person. I know you can say that about any race BUT to me it's easier to do with some armies as opposed to others. I was at the Necro and had the opportunity to play the two fellas with the highest battle points (tied, SoB & NidZilla)... I tied the SoB army and had a major victory versus the Tyranids.

I really like the new rules for Blood Angels and believe they were written with 5th edition in mind. They were good in 4th edition but much better now in 5th. I don't think there are a lot of viable lists for BA but that's not a big deal to me. We still have lots of unique units and I feel the army must rely upon special characters to be top tier. I am very interested to see how the upcoming rules will play. It took me a long time to get back to where I was and hopefully there won't be a big learning curve to go through yet again.

G

If there were two thing that I would desperately wish for in a New BA dex they would be:
1) Replacing Honour Guard and Vet Aussault with Vanguard and such (models are So KEWWL!)
2) Fluff. Mountains upon mountains of FLUFF!!! *cackle madly*

Alas, my thirst we'll have to be sated with the DC that should be coming in soon.

Emperors Faithful wrote:If there were two thing that I would desperately wish for in a New BA dex they would be:
1) Replacing Honour Guard and Vet Aussault with Vanguard and such (models are So KEWWL!)
2) Fluff. Mountains upon mountains of FLUFF!!! *cackle madly*

Alas, my thirst we'll have to be sated with the DC that should be coming in soon.

Are you talking about New DC models from GW