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Defiler wrote:Hey mods, get this crap out of the thread? Bickering between members isn't a rumor.

Seconded.

On topic:
1.) Background is slightly (re)written, even when DE are the only race with almost no background information. No details known.
2.) Dark Eldar currently are not Chaos Eldar. Those were removed from official material since at least 3rd edition (with only one possible exception).
3.) Exodites are not Corsairs. Exodites live on planets and are something like the wood elves of 40k. Some Corsairs are DE though, some ex-craftworlders (e.g. Prince Yriel).
4.) There are a lot of reasons why DE are less popular, a.o. a marketing desaster at the start and now the minimal support by GW and ugly dated miniatures. Has always been an expert army with a steep learning curve.

Okay so let's take a look at what DE have and where they have some room for expansion. They are the glass hammer army with the exception of the Talos. Now if GW were to give them some game breaking rule(s) then that would help them to gain some popularity. The last thing they need is another codex like Tyranids just received, which has already been overshadowed by the still yet to be released Blood Angels codex.

What? The tyranids are one of games workshops best selling armies. They always have been. They don't need broken rules to sell, and they have quite a bit of cheese on their own. You think vanilla marines are packed full of cheese? They're the best selling product games workshop has ever put forth.

HQ: Archon/Drachite/Wyche Lord
I think they could stand to receive a couple more HQ choices. I can't remember off the top of my head if Heamonculi are HQ or elite. I could easily a special character Wyche Lord that let's you field Wyches as troops but in addition to Warriors. Probably most likely Lelith will be revamped as well. What would be useful for DE as a new HQ? it's not like they need another close combat monster. It would be nice if they had access to a character that let's them redeploy several units and outflank/scout. Heck these abilities could just be simply incorporated into their codex. This would help them a lot.

Dark eldar need a tank (archon) a psyker (something new) and a army buff unit (wych lord). Almost every army follows this paradigm. Certain armies mix roles (the farseer being a psychic buffer for instance) or avoid the roles entirely (master of the forge) but this is a paradigm that makes for multiple levels of top down builds. Ideally every army would have a buffer, tank, damage character, and psyker.

Troops: Warriors
I think the Warriors are pretty good as is and only need a little sprucing up. DE definitely need a couple more troops choices (besides an option to field wyches as such). Even one more viable troop choice would help but I'm at a loss what it should be.

Tiers of warriors, aka marines and scouts or guardians and stormguardians would be a good level of meat. Add an eccentric unit (wyches) and a skirmish/assault unit and you have a good troop section.

Elites: Wyches, ???
What I would love to see is the I introduction of Harlequins to DE. it completely fits in with the background. Give them the option to run jetbikes. Wyches definitely need to be reworked as their rules are very much so outdated now. Keep combat drugs for sure though, they still rock.

This section needs a total rewrite to better pertain to the background of commoraugh. I would expect assassins, experiments, and hardcore military units.

Heavy Support: Flyguys w. guns, Ravagers
I can't remember the name of the flying heavy support but they need to be able to move and shoot, maybe give them a shorter ranged version of the dark lance that counts as an assault weapon. Ravagers are pretty good as is and if they don't now count as a transport then it should. Also maybe let hte flyguys ride in it.

I doubt the flying dudes will stay as is. They'll likely become fragile but highly mobile unit with a new assault gun. Similar to immortals but faster and less resilient. Also ravagers, the talos, and some sort of heavy armor option (every army needs one, overall concept of the force be damned, they sell).

Other units: Talos, Hellions & Reaver jetbikes
I would like to see the Talos boosted to T8 and be able to move like jump infantry. Hellions could benefit from being able to assault directly from deepstrike. They need a shock unit to throw off armies like mech guard. Reaver jetbikes need to be reworked as well.

I would prefer the talos be made into a vehicle walker with psychic powers. The model needs to be bigger too.

Skimmers:
they need something like nightshield built in but just a tad better.

The skimmers are pretty good as is.

Here is the actual background to the dark eldar. They are the original eldar. Eldar were basically the hippies who forsaw the coming destruction of their homeworld and built craftworlds so they could move off planet to survive the impending death of their homeworld. Commoraugh is not the homeworld of the eldar. The surviving members of the original eldar moved there to re establish themselves. The vast majority of all eldar were destroyed with the birth of Slaanesh. Their destroyed planet gave rise to the Eye of Terror. Both eldar and dark eldar are a dying race. They once ruled a vast section of the galaxy but slowly succumbed to their hedonistic ways. The dark eldar are the few survivors who were off planet when the disaster occurred. They are few and not thriving by any means. They have very limited technology since most of it was lost during the destruction of their homeworld. As such they are forced to survive operating very much as bands of pirates. You will note there is no army to represent them in either Epic or Battle Fleet Gothic. They have no warmachines as such.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:Here is the actual background to the dark eldar. They are the original eldar. Eldar were basically the hippies who forsaw the coming destruction of their homeworld and built craftworlds so they could move off planet to survive the impending death of their homeworld. Commoraugh is not the homeworld of the eldar. The surviving members of the original eldar moved there to re establish themselves. The vast majority of all eldar were destroyed with the birth of Slaanesh. Their destroyed planet gave rise to the Eye of Terror. Both eldar and dark eldar are a dying race. They once ruled a vast section of the galaxy but slowly succumbed to their hedonistic ways. The dark eldar are the few survivors who were off planet when the disaster occurred. They are few and not thriving by any means. They have very limited technology since most of it was lost during the destruction of their homeworld. As such they are forced to survive operating very much as bands of pirates. You will note there is no army to represent them in either Epic or Battle Fleet Gothic. They have no warmachines as such.

G

You didn't read that book very accurately. Firstly they're all the original eldar. Secondly off planet is meaningless, the eye of terror consumed the heart of the eldar empire which was likely hundreds of thousands to millions of worlds, thirdly they weren't hippies, fourthly the dark eldar population is increasing, fifthly they do not have limited technology and have developed technologically separately from the current incarnation of the eldar, sixthly they have dark eldar battlefleet gothic ships and a dark eldar bfg army, seventhly their piracy is inherent to their economy which trades in souls due to the method they use to vampirically extend their lives, and eighthly the only eldar alive during the fall was asdrubael vect who was a child.



Hi I'm a torture class cruiser. I'm a dark eldar battlefleet gothic ship from the dark eldar battlefleet gothic army.

I meant to say just Epic. Other than that I'm not going to banter with you about minute details.

G

You were the one posting as if you had some kind of authority on Eldar background, now you refuse to "banter" about the things you got wrong?

"Here's how it is. *post*"

"You're wrong."

"Pfft, I don't have time for this!"


Anyway, more on topic I guess...I like what someone posted about the new ravager, saying it looked very "Eldar" in design and had sails similar to Yriel's ships in BFG. I really wish we could get pictures of this crap instead of relying on just hearsay, but I like what I've heard about the new models.

Hopefully it's actually real this time and not more BS, lol.

Well I was lucky enough to be able to speak with an actual developer at a GD several years at length about dark eldar and that's where I learned of their background. So I made a mistake about BFG... go ahead and shoot me if it makes you feel better.

anyways it would be nice to see an actual novel from BL that deals with the dark eldar written by a good writer. That could possibly help them to be a bit more popular. They definitely need a little help.

G

If you're such a stickler for details on the dark eldar (granted, blow fly was way off), why on earth would you recommend dark eldar units getting psychic anything? They'd never ever ever use psychers (at least, according to the current fluff) for fear of attracting Slaanesh.

I know you're looking at trying to get DE in line with other common (and effective) army builds, but I think the route GW will take will be to give the army more options (lots of outflanking, poison attacks, hit and run, etc) and not so much the archtype heros we see in other armies. Special characters will probably give the buff-type abilities you mention (like the original codex had the master haemoculi that had better, but still crappy, grotesques).

Also, is the only purpose of collecting slaves for their souls to extend the DE lifespan? I can't remember specifically what I read, but I could have sworn their was some hint that the souls were somehow released to Slaanesh, and given to her to temporarily feed her hunger so she wouldn't devour the DE. As she is always hungry, the DE are forced for all eternity to keep slave raiding to keep delaying their inevitable destruction.

Grimaldi you've basically repeated all the ideas I posted a bit further up. I do agree with you that DE have no business with psychic powers.

G

If you're such a stickler for details on the dark eldar (granted, blow fly was way off), why on earth would you recommend dark eldar units getting psychic anything? They'd never ever ever use psychers (at least, according to the current fluff) for fear of attracting Slaanesh.

Oddly enough Archons are psykers. They already have psykers in their fluff. All Eldar are psykers. They are a psychic race designed to be living psychic weapons by their psychic masters who never evolve or mutate. They are all psychic.

I know you're looking at trying to get DE in line with other common (and effective) army builds, but I think the route GW will take will be to give the army more options (lots of outflanking, poison attacks, hit and run, etc) and not so much the archtype heros we see in other armies. Special characters will probably give the buff-type abilities you mention (like the original codex had the master haemoculi that had better, but still crappy, grotesques).

Those ideas are not mutually excluive. The archon is already a tank and damage unit with his retinue, the special character are almost all high damage high threat units and there is significant room in the fluff for army buffs to come from the HQ.

Also, is the only purpose of collecting slaves for their souls to extend the DE lifespan? I can't remember specifically what I read, but I could have sworn their was some hint that the souls were somehow released to Slaanesh, and given to her to temporarily feed her hunger so she wouldn't devour the DE. As she is always hungry, the DE are forced for all eternity to keep slave raiding to keep delaying their inevitable destruction.

The dark eldar fluff is rife with contradictions, and that one is at the center of them all. It's similar to the necron fluff in this way. They both devour eachothers souls and the souls of slaves, but they also give those souls to slaanesh. You can't really give the soul of someone that isn't corrupted to slaanesh, it wouldn't want them and the dark eldar method of devouring souls isn't really documented. It was all just an excuse to make them evil and to justify their piracy (as well as needing bodies to experiment on and rape). It's just sort of comically evil for evils sake.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Black Blow Fly wrote:Grimaldi you've basically repeated all the ideas I posted a bit further up. I do agree with you that DE have no business with psychic powers.

G

I don't think you've ever read the codex or anything relating to the race before..

Dark Eldar are coming... It's going to be Dark... And Eldar-y... And And And

Actually, it sounds more like what you said rubbed the Red shirt the wrong way, because what you said made it sound like they were trying to deceive customers. Rather than you uncovering anything to do with a DE update.

So, when DE come out - what will there be left for DD to deny?

H.B.M.C. wrote:So, when DE come out - what will there be left for DD to deny?

-cough-Dogs of War -cough-

H.B.M.C. wrote:So, when DE come out - what will there be left for DD to deny?

He could always just beat the dead horse of overpowered models selling new minis. Its about as hairbrained!

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:After visiting my nearest GW store about a fortnight ago, I noticed that they were having 'a model of the month' painting competition and the model of the month happened to be the Dark Eldar Incubi. To enter, you had to buy a box of Incubis, paint them and enter them in the comp.
Seeing this, I mused to my friend jokingly, 'Maybe they're just trying to get rid of the stuff that's going to be updated'.
However, a red shirt overheard me and asked me how I knew that and not to mention it again or else I would be thrown out of the store.

Are the DE no longer update proof?

I loled this post. You need to tell that redshirt to pack sand. If they want to start being obtuse over something as trivial as that they not only deserve knifes, they deserve losing some teeth.

The fact that they made you buy them, then to tell you something like that at least should cost them their bottom row, or a good wrap in the chops with a Louisville Slugger.

Grot 6 wrote:

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:After visiting my nearest GW store about a fortnight ago, I noticed that they were having 'a model of the month' painting competition and the model of the month happened to be the Dark Eldar Incubi. To enter, you had to buy a box of Incubis, paint them and enter them in the comp.
Seeing this, I mused to my friend jokingly, 'Maybe they're just trying to get rid of the stuff that's going to be updated'.
However, a red shirt overheard me and asked me how I knew that and not to mention it again or else I would be thrown out of the store.

Are the DE no longer update proof?

I loled this post. You need to tell that redshirt to pack sand. If they want to start being obtuse over something as trivial as that they not only deserve knifes, they deserve losing some teeth.

The fact that they made you buy them, then to tell you something like that at least should cost them their bottom row, or a good wrap in the chops with a Louisville Slugger.

So, just got your subscription to ITG Monthly?

On Topic: It's a redshirt. Ignore him. DE are still better off squated.

ShumaGorath wrote:He could always just beat the dead horse of overpowered models selling new minis.

Other than the obvious fact that it makes sense from a business perspective to write incentives into your rules to generate greater sales of new products.

But hey, let's not let logic get in the way. Let's cite really stupid examples like "Why aren't Pariahs awesome then!" or assume that GW is flawless and can never ever make mistakes (like Possessed/Spawn) when they're human just like the rest of us and do, will, and have made mistakes (ie. thinking they've written gold when really they've written... something other than gold).

H.B.M.C. wrote: (ie. thinking they've written gold when really they've written... something other than gold).

Pyrite?

They need to come out with dark eldar stuff, then I can hop onto the bring the squats back bandwagon wooo space dwarfs im going to get drunk with my minis woo.

but yeah space dwarfs would rock my boat.

I should really refresh the thread once in a while

apwill4765 wrote:I should really refresh the thread once in a while

I've tried it, but the 2 pages of spam are still there

@Black Blow Fly: You should check the half page of "Slaanesh birth" background (plus Exodites ) in the Eldar Codex and/or the 8 pages ever written on Dark Eldar background. Then you will see that your presentation of the DE background is 50% wrong in major facts, not only details. BTW, let's wait for the first decent Eldar novel in years (Gav Thorpe) and then hope for a good Dark Eldar novel.

ShumaGorath wrote:

If you're such a stickler for details on the dark eldar (granted, blow fly was way off), why on earth would you recommend dark eldar units getting psychic anything? They'd never ever ever use psychers (at least, according to the current fluff) for fear of attracting Slaanesh.

Oddly enough Archons are psykers. They already have psykers in their fluff. All Eldar are psykers. They are a psychic race designed to be living psychic weapons by their psychic masters who never evolve or mutate. They are all psychic.

I'm curious where you have found that Archons are psykers.

From a rules perspective, there is nothing psykic in the entire army. The only thing in the list that mentions psykers is the Crucible of Malediction, and that is something that kills psykers.

I have only read one Black Library book that had DE in it, and that was like 5-6 years ago. I have also read the DE codex fluff, such as there is. I don't recall in either of those locations any mention that Archons are psykers.

Is there anything T8 in any standard codex isnt it reserved for appoc? For some reason I want to think an eldar walker is. I doubt a Talos would hit T8 as you are up to a S4 base to even wound it.

Lorne wrote:Is there anything T8 in any standard codex isnt it reserved for appoc? For some reason I want to think an eldar walker is. I doubt a Talos would hit T8 as you are up to a S4 base to even wound it.

Wraithlords? They were in 3rd anyway...

I'll believe the DE are coming back when I see it.

And I really want to see it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:So, when DE come out - what will there be left for DD to deny?

"When"? We've yet to see any actual proof they are anywhere near production, it's all hearsay based on secondhand accounts of glimpses made over several months or even years. Even if there is work done and there are sculpts finalised there's still plenty of time for GW to pull the plug. All they have to do is decide that the release slot wouldn't be as profitable as say, another Space Marine army, and they'll be axed. It's not too late to cut your losses and cancel production until you've manufactured 100,000 boxes and sent them to the shops. Why is it that there's a Dark Eldar thread here every month claiming that the new codex is only 6 months or a year away?

Many people seem keen to talk up the 'potential' of the DE line even though they've not even seen the purported sculpts and codex, but it's historically been a poorly performing line (due to GW lack of support so the fault is theirs) and that means that a re-release is a gamble in the eyes of executives, another space marine army is a safe bet for stable profit which is what people like to see these days. Even if they do want to make a release they are likely to be continually pushed back for a rainy day instead of given a prime spot for release.

The development work on the Dark Eldar, if it is to be believed, is going at a snail's pace mainly because it's Jes Goodwin on his own. This doesn't strike me as the enthusiastic corporate approach for a serious release, it's more speculative. Which would suggest that the DE have only lingered on in the fashion that they have because, like the support for 'Specialist Games', they're someone's pet project.

I've been a member here for nearly two years and was a lurker a long while before that, and Dark Eldar have always been "coming out next year". If they appear in the next 12 months I'll eat my hat.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

...Which would suggest that the DE have only lingered on in the fashion that they have because, like the support for 'Specialist Games', they're someone's pet project...

Specialist games have support

TBH I find the prospect of getting dark eldar much more plausible than another one of Jervis Johnson's pointless lies about how Specialist Games are 'still important to the company'. Dark Eldar would at this point be a new 40k faction for all intents and purposes. They could be hyped up ridiculously by GW when they finally set a release date and followed by FW producing shiny apocalypse toys (maybe even an IA book if they wanted).

All of this could provide a huge revenue stream for GW. Specialist games, by their nature, are low cost to the customer. GW's attempts to rectify this by bumping up the price of much of the specialist stuff to quite obscene levels (£12 for two epic wave serpents - £20 for one BFG tau cruiser? really?) has achieved nothing but to drain the life out of specialist by making it so unappealing to potential new custom.

I predict DE coming within 12-18 months. I just wish GW would grow a set of balls and decide one way or the other what to do with SG. Either ditch them or support them, but don't leave them in limbo any more...

Just out of interest, what kind of superheavy's do people think the Dark eldar might have?

Why would they support epic when they have the even more expensive units in appoc?