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And yet they keep winning. I dunno, maybe he's just plain wrong.

Most real life events are BS. The only events which count are the ones he runs locally or in his head.

Im now imaging some crazy obese guy with a huge neckbeard sitting at his table painting, and mumbling to himself about some game he is playing in his brain.

Mannahnin wrote:Most real life events are BS. The only events which count are the ones he runs locally or in his head.

I thought I heard his local store banned him from running events there?

Wouldn't that mean that the only events he runs would be in his house?

[creepy, gravely voice]
"Hey kids, wanna play some 40K? I've got tables in my basement."
[/creepy, gravely voice]

Mannahnin wrote:Most real life events are BS. The only events which count are the ones he runs locally or in his head.

This actually is probably main point, ridiculous or not. Tournaments are three to five games against a grab bag of armies:

"stuff I have painted, sure it's 48 fire warrior Tau but it's painted!"
"my fluff army that I really like with 6 spawn"
"my optimized YTTH list I've never played before last week"
"my 4 year old optimized 4e army that I've played every week and know like the back of my hand"
"whatever the top army was two codexes ago when I could afford it/had time to paint it"
"whatever the top army is now because I always can afford it/have time to paint it"
"the one guy with a dark eldar army in the state"
"some awesome army that is the paper to your rock"
"some terrible army that also happens to be the paper to your rock"

etc, etc.

Then the missions often do all sorts of weird things outside of the basic missions in the book, often making the game very different tactically, sometimes just making the game confusing, but almost invariably changing the game and what would be optimized listbuilding.

Since all of this exists, a large portion of "optimized" lists won't do well, or they won't do as well as supposedly "bad" lists or codexes. Match ups, missions, etc all matter and unless everything is some perfect world of Stelek lists and Stelek missions played by masters of mobile shooty armies, stuff isn't going to go the way it was predicted.

The only way to really test any of these theories would be to run 100's of games in a ladder or tournament setting, keeping detailed track of results, mistakes, etc. Even then you'd only be optimized for whatever those specific set of missions were, and heaven forbid a new codex comes out.

The fact that he says Ghazgull "sucks" should make any serious 40K player dismiss the guy entirely. Not to mention all the other nonsense he comes up with.

GG

lambadomy wrote:...The only way to really test any of these theories would be to run 100's of games in a ladder or tournament setting, keeping detailed track of results, mistakes, etc. Even then you'd only be optimized for whatever those specific set of missions were, and heaven forbid a new codex comes out.

Yes, I think you have said it best here, and empirically stated it quite well.

Also

"The only guy in the state with a Dark Eldar army..."

Made me laugh, I think I know that guy in my state.

Indeed.

But, love it or hate it, the tournament system is what it is.

You have to work within the confines of reality, not purely in theory which counts for less. We will never have a 1,000 round tournament with all "optimized" lists, so to say that is the baseline for passing judgement is silly. So if you have the perfectly optimized list in theory, it is still inferior to the worst list in reality because a theoretical list can win no games while a terrible list in reality can potentially win all of its games.

Reality is what matters and tournaments are the reality of competitive play.

Besides, we see the same names winning or nearly winning consistently, which goes a long way to proving the argument of skill over luck in a tournament setting.

Reecius wrote:
Besides, we see the same names winning or nearly winning consistently, which goes a long way to proving the argument of skill over luck in a tournament setting.

This is only true if they're not also usually coming with whatever the newest latest greatest army/codex is (or continuing to play what is considered the top codex if the newest doesn't hack it). Not to say that they're doing that, just that its a variable that needs to be worked out.

Of course, a lot of time the value of a codex is probably misinterpreted because the best players happen to be playing it, not because it's actually great.

Who knows. I do think it is pretty obvious that skill matters a lot more than codex or army. But figuring out how much exactly is hard.

generalgrog wrote:The fact that he says Ghazgull "sucks" should make any serious 40K player dismiss the guy entirely. Not to mention all the other nonsense he comes up with.

GG

I thought the statement "When your old Codex is FAR more competitive than your new Codex," it was dismissable.

carmachu wrote:

generalgrog wrote:The fact that he says Ghazgull "sucks" should make any serious 40K player dismiss the guy entirely. Not to mention all the other nonsense he comes up with.

GG

I thought the statement "When your old Codex is FAR more competitive than your new Codex," it was dismissable.

Oh, and don't forget " A CC army that loses in CC" That made me laugh. Has he ever even seen an Ork charge? Clearly not.

Well, my offer stands to Stelek and his defenders.

I had one challenger step up to defend Stelek against my Ork Onslaught. He didn't use a standard Stelek list because he felt that Stelek is increasingly losing his ability to create an effective list, so he modified it, and we duked it out.

Game ended on turn3 I think, with the loss of two deffkoptas in exchange for a tabling.

Not calling him out; he's a fun opponent.

Stelek's problem is that he dismisses the opinions and experiences of people whose opinions and experiences do not match his own. It means that YTTH is an echo chamber of sycophancy.

But likewise dismissing Stelek's own opinions and experiences, rather than trying to understand their context and hence their value, is playing his game, the stupid game.

If you want to evaluate the state of tournaments accurately, you have to accept people's opinions and experiences as valid and figure out the difference in perspective, rather than dismissing them because there's a difference in perspective.

Snikkyd wrote:
Oh, and don't forget " A CC army that loses in CC" That made me laugh. Has he ever even seen an Ork charge? Clearly not.

Well to be honest, the standard ork boy squad isn't all that UBER. They are indeed good in a lot of situations, but I have seen my trukk boy squads "bounce" off of other close combat oriented squads(space wolves, black templars, etc.etc.). Now, a maxed out 30 man boy unit is a different story(if they make it intact).

GG

No, he's right, a maxxed 30-man ork squad can lose combat to quite a few units. Six bloodcrushers can drop 30 orks in two rounds (wounds, not taking a lot of wounds, combat res, and then finishing them off). Thunderwolves too. Trukk boy squads need to work in concert with other units, 12 men just isn't enough when everyone else swings before you and you've got t-shirts for saves.

But look at what you're comparing. A trukk boy squad is 110ish points (incl PK nob). If they charge 10 space wolves (without any upgrades), they're already down by 30%.

This is also why good ork players tend towards running shoota boy squads instead of sluugas. The loss of one attack/model (and still getting 3) is fairly insignificant, compared to being able to unload the dakka 12" sooner, especially against those units that are better in CC.

Yes, but around 20 Boys can destroy almost anything, even dedicated CC units easily. Even Shoota Boys can, Trukk boys OTOH, aren't quite as good, but thats why you need to multi charge.

However, 20 Shootas can charge into 10 GH and win, especially if they shoot first. I consider that to be plenty enough CC power. Thunderwolves and Bloodcrushers are the best of the best for CC IMO, but they are Elites and Boys are Troops. Thats why we have Nobs and Warbosses and Ghazghull. And Burnas

Whether they can and whether they will are questions that are linked, but not always given the same answer.

Take twenty Slugga Boyz assaulting ten Grey Hunters, no fancy gimmicks.

Suppose firstly that the Slugga Boyz get the Slugga shots, all in range, and no casualties put them out of range: 20 shots, 6.60 hits, 3.30 wounds, 1.10 unsaved wounds.

The Grey Hunters counter-attack on Ld8 or 73% of the time, and fail 27% of the time, or 0.73 and 0.27 repectively.

So 73% of the time they have 27 attacks, 13.5 hits, 6.75 wounds, 5.60 unsaved wounds. About 6 dead orks. 27% of the time they have 18 attacks, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 3.74 unsaved wounds. About 5.1 on average.

14 Orks attack at I3 with 56 attacks, 28 hits, 14 wounds, 4.62 unsaved wounds. About 5 dead Grey Hunters.

So the Orks can win, but you shouldn't expect them to win much of the time.

Yeah I had a situation the other day where I charged 2 trukk boy squads into a grey hunter squad, with a rune priest, a wolfen, and some other upgraded dude with wolf claws.

Long story short, he killed 12 boys and I killed 4 grey hunters. Both squads failed their Ld checks and bounced. I did forget to shoot my sluggas on the way in though, so I may have been able to kill 1 or 2 SW's on the way in, but not gauaranteed.

On a side note my 17 ork ard' boys squad did get to finish them off when I waaaghed into them later.

Not to mention the fact that Ghazzgul and his nobs charged(with the help of snikrot and kommandos) and wiped out a unit of thunderwolf cav with canis wolfborn. They didn't really need the kommandos help but it made things go faster.

This another reason why I think it's silly to say Ghazgull sucks.

GG

I should note that Boys may need 2 rounds to finish off Grey Hunters. In my tests, the Orks actually lost the first time, took some Fearless wounds, but finished off the GH the next round, wich they probably will in Nurglitch's example.

Nurglitch wrote:Stelek's problem is that he dismisses the opinions and experiences of people whose opinions and experiences do not match his own. It means that YTTH is an echo chamber of sycophancy.

But likewise dismissing Stelek's own opinions and experiences, rather than trying to understand their context and hence their value, is playing his game, the stupid game.

If you want to evaluate the state of tournaments accurately, you have to accept people's opinions and experiences as valid and figure out the difference in perspective, rather than dismissing them because there's a difference in perspective.

I like SOME of Stelek's opinions on some items. But otherwise yeah I do seem to find it more of an echo chamber then anything else, the same opinions reverberating around, rather then letting folks with experience speak, it gets dismissed, like dashof pepper's challenge in that thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

generalgrog wrote:

Snikkyd wrote:
Oh, and don't forget " A CC army that loses in CC" That made me laugh. Has he ever even seen an Ork charge? Clearly not.

Well to be honest, the standard ork boy squad isn't all that UBER. They are indeed good in a lot of situations, but I have seen my trukk boy squads "bounce" off of other close combat oriented squads(space wolves, black templars, etc.etc.). Now, a maxed out 30 man boy unit is a different story(if they make it intact).

GG

While still on my learning curve, I quickly learned that charging a full truckboyz squad into a squad of howling banshees w/ farseer wasnt the smartest idea.....

Redbeard wrote:

This is also why good ork players tend towards running shoota boy squads instead of sluugas. The loss of one attack/model (and still getting 3) is fairly insignificant, compared to being able to unload the dakka 12" sooner, especially against those units that are better in CC.

How about a meeting of your shoota boys vs. my slugga boys so that I can demonstrate my feelings about this statement?

Vassal is only three clicks away.

DashofPepper knows what he is talking about. He posted a KOS list in one of several ork threads over in "40k army lists". this made me come back to KOS after a sabbatical thru most of 4th ed. My orks routinely "roflstomp" other armies including the "top tier" IG mech lists.

as for Ghaz being a crappy character, he recently killed 6 chaos termies, a chaos sorc, and 1/2 a chaos squad all by his lonesome. In fact my opponent was in awe, and was talking of bringing Abadon just to deal with Ghaz.

Just for my own two cents...

In the championships, my daemons took down a 190 model ork army, then took down an IG Mech army. Then I ran smack into a kult of speed army, and came out on top, but essentially we knocked each other out.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Redbeard wrote:

This is also why good ork players tend towards running shoota boy squads instead of sluugas. The loss of one attack/model (and still getting 3) is fairly insignificant, compared to being able to unload the dakka 12" sooner, especially against those units that are better in CC.

How about a meeting of your shoota boys vs. my slugga boys so that I can demonstrate my feelings about this statement?

Vassal is only three clicks away.

I don't play miniature wargames to play games online. If you're playing KoS, sluggas are probably more appropriate, as you need the extra attacks when you charge. When you've only got 12 boyz in a trukk, you need all the hits you can get.

That said, I think that the matchup between KoS and sloggers is about more than whether you picked shootas or sluggas. Whoever gets the charge tends to win in ork-on-ork engagements.

Redbeard wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

Redbeard wrote:

This is also why good ork players tend towards running shoota boy squads instead of sluugas. The loss of one attack/model (and still getting 3) is fairly insignificant, compared to being able to unload the dakka 12" sooner, especially against those units that are better in CC.

How about a meeting of your shoota boys vs. my slugga boys so that I can demonstrate my feelings about this statement?

Vassal is only three clicks away.

I don't play miniature wargames to play games online. If you're playing KoS, sluggas are probably more appropriate, as you need the extra attacks when you charge. When you've only got 12 boyz in a trukk, you need all the hits you can get.

That said, I think that the matchup between KoS and sloggers is about more than whether you picked shootas or sluggas. Whoever gets the charge tends to win in ork-on-ork engagements.

And since a KoS led by Ghazghkull have an army-wide threat range that can pretty much double anything a slogging army can do, and outrange anything in a landraider or on foot, those sluggas are always getting the charge.

Playing against daemons is a very careful affair of what half of your army you got, whether its slaneeshy, tzeenchy, or khorny (hahaha), and making sure that the fight doesn't turn into a middle of the field brawl.