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Kroothawk wrote:Anyone remembers the time, when GW said they wanted to do more plastic kits to make the hobby cheaper?
Now old Steel Legion is cheaper than old plastic Cadians and Catachans!

I do. I still have the white dwarf where they said they are planing on having the majority of their core/common/whatever troops done in plastic by...the far off future of the year 2000!

Of course, plastic boxed sets of 20 skellies/ 10 space marines/ 16 chaos warriors/ etc. were $18 then.

So we all hoped to have an army be possible for less than $200 considering what core/troops were going for then. And most times it was very possible.

Then those very same plastic boxes went from $18 to $20. A lot of people whined then (locally and not much on the internet since this was circa 1997) because they couldnt pick up 5 boxed sets for $100 and then have enough for a couple blisters too.

At least now you ALMOST have enough to buy two boxes of space marines and a blister. Almost.

I just dont understand what everybody is so cranky about *ducks*.


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Kroothawk wrote:Anyone remembers the time, when GW said they wanted to do more plastic kits to make the hobby cheaper?
Now old Steel Legion is cheaper than old plastic Cadians and Catachans!

I do. I still have the white dwarf where they said they are planing on having the majority of their core/common/whatever troops done in plastic by...the far off future of the year 2000!

Of course, plastic boxed sets of 20 skellies/ 10 space marines/ 16 chaos warriors/ etc. were $18 then.

So we all hoped to have an army be possible for less than $200 considering what core/troops were going for then. And most times it was very possible.

Then those very same plastic boxes went from $18 to $20. A lot of people whined then (locally and not much on the internet since this was circa 1997) because they couldnt pick up 5 boxed sets for $100 and then have enough for a couple blisters too.

At least now you ALMOST have enough to buy two boxes of space marines and a blister. Almost.

I just dont understand what everybody is so cranky about *ducks*.

Hilarious. I wonder how many black reach boxes they'll move at that price.
Black Reach was worth it to split with a friend and each take half. Now, new players should just buy a battleforce. No reason to spend that much to get crappy models.
Codexes were overpriced at $20, 29 is really too much.

Let's take a look at newcomers Mantic Games:
One year of their magazine: $15 (White Dwarf: $75)
Box of 20 Skeletons: $25 (VC skeletons are $22 for 10)

The only downside to Mantic so far is that they've only released two armies, and it hasn't gained enough popularity yet to have opponents. Once these guys take off, that's another nail in the GW coffin.
Either way, I'll be subscribing to their magazine to see what's going on with them.

¬¬ Sixk of this like th 3rd of 4th price rise within 8 years gawk. Gunna start spending online. Worse part is they think peopel will buy loads before price rise .

Hellfury wrote:
I just dont understand what everybody is so cranky about *ducks*.

I'm cranky because my wife has been out of town for a week - you do the math.

More relevant to this thread, I'm cranky because it's the same thread as last year and the year before and the year before. No one is learning anything.

Fact: None of us like prices going up.
Fact: Only a few of us have stopped buying miniatures because of increased prices.
Theory: Maybe GW, the publicly traded company with a professional corporate finance department actually do understand that their customer base is largely price insensitive. Perhaps they have a better grasp of their financial picture than a handful of internet posters who don't even have access to their sales figures.

I mean, all this doom and gloom, end of the company stuff. Prices have gone up every year for the last six years, and each time it's the end of the company. And yet, here we all are, saying the same crap over again.

And, as much as I don't like GWs prices going up, I prefer that to my gas bill going up. The cost of food is more relevant to my daily life than the cost of toy soldiers. And at my job we get cost-of-living increases. Costs go up, but so do paychecks. So, no, I don't like it. But, it's a fact of life. Prices go up, on everything, from cars to gas to utilities to food, and yes, to toy soldiers.

If you think it's an unfair price increase, change the equation. If sales (not profits, buying from Neal doesn't help here, they're still moving goods) drop off, they'll be forced to re-evaluate their position. But if they don't - they're right. They're charging what the market bears, and that's the definition of a fair price.

Mad Rabbit wrote:Hilarious. I wonder how many black reach boxes they'll move at that price.
Black Reach was worth it to split with a friend and each take half. Now, new players should just buy a battleforce. No reason to spend that much to get crappy models.
Codexes were overpriced at $20, 29 is really too much.

Let's take a look at newcomers Mantic Games:
One year of their magazine: $15 (White Dwarf: $75)
Box of 20 Skeletons: $25 (VC skeletons are $22 for 10)

The only downside to Mantic so far is that they've only released two armies, and it hasn't gained enough popularity yet to have opponents. Once these guys take off, that's another nail in the GW coffin.
Either way, I'll be subscribing to their magazine to see what's going on with them.

You're comparing a company that 99% of people who play GW games has ever or will ever have heard about with only two armies, in one style (fantasy), and no existing fluff library that people find interesting and care about to GW?

Dude, I love those skeletons too, but be reasonable. Mantic, while cool, is never going to make a dent in GW. Unless maybe they get a hold of the WH IP.


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Redbeard wrote:

Hellfury wrote:
I just dont understand what everybody is so cranky about *ducks*.

I'm cranky because my wife has been out of town for a week - you do the math.

More relevant to this thread, I'm cranky because it's the same thread as last year and the year before and the year before. No one is learning anything.

Fact: None of us like prices going up.
Fact: Only a few of us have stopped buying miniatures because of increased prices.
Theory: Maybe GW, the publicly traded company with a professional corporate finance department actually do understand that their customer base is largely price insensitive. Perhaps they have a better grasp of their financial picture than a handful of internet posters who don't even have access to their sales figures.

I mean, all this doom and gloom, end of the company stuff. Prices have gone up every year for the last six years, and each time it's the end of the company. And yet, here we all are, saying the same crap over again.

And, as much as I don't like GWs prices going up, I prefer that to my gas bill going up. The cost of food is more relevant to my daily life than the cost of toy soldiers. And at my job we get cost-of-living increases. Costs go up, but so do paychecks. So, no, I don't like it. But, it's a fact of life. Prices go up, on everything, from cars to gas to utilities to food, and yes, to toy soldiers.

If you think it's an unfair price increase, change the equation. If sales (not profits, buying from Neal doesn't help here, they're still moving goods) drop off, they'll be forced to re-evaluate their position. But if they don't - they're right. They're charging what the market bears, and that's the definition of a fair price.

Actually, we DO have access to those figures, and a not insignificant number of posters HAVE reached the same conclusion as you have.

The problem here is that Sturgeon's Law can be applied to people. 90% of people on the internet are not thinking logically, substituting how they feel about a given situation for any actual data.

Ostrakon wrote:

Mad Rabbit wrote:
Let's take a look at newcomers Mantic Games... etc...
One year of their magazine: $15 (White Dwarf: $75)

You're comparing a company that 99% of people who play GW games has ever or will ever have heard about with only two armies, in one style (fantasy), and no existing fluff library that people find interesting and care about to GW?

Dude, I love those skeletons too, but be reasonable. Mantic, while cool, is never going to make a dent in GW. Unless maybe they get a hold of the WH IP.

Point 1: Mantic is in it's infancy, and it won't be the last fantasy plastic producer.
Point 2: GW would love to own things like 'Elf' or 'Orc' but it doesn't. There are plenty out there who already make metal minis better than GWs, take another look at gamezone miniatures. Once the plastic moulding tech is more widely available, GW will find it's self entrenched and at war in Fantasy mini market.

Ah, but the real money is in 40k!...

Point 3: Granted the Space Marine armour is an image that GW can call it's own, Post Apocalyptic Orks, Biomechanical Xenomorphs, Space Elves or Near Future WW3 trenchcoat wearing humans isn't. Others will push the boundaries to their limits as the plastics technology becomes more readily available. And someone producing 'Space knights' in powered armour that look as good as, but different enough to, space marines, isn't out of the question either...

Ostrakon wrote:
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Redbeard wrote:
More relevant to this thread, I'm cranky because it's the same thread as last year and the year before and the year before. No one is learning anything.

Fact: None of us like prices going up.
Fact: Only a few of us have stopped buying miniatures because of increased prices.
Theory: Maybe GW, the publicly traded company with a professional corporate finance department actually do understand that their customer base is largely price insensitive. Perhaps they have a better grasp of their financial picture than a handful of internet posters who don't even have access to their sales figures.

I mean, all this doom and gloom, end of the company stuff. Prices have gone up every year for the last six years, and each time it's the end of the company. And yet, here we all are, saying the same crap over again.
And, as much as I don't like GWs prices going up, I prefer that to my gas bill going up. The cost of food is more relevant to my daily life than the cost of toy soldiers. And at my job we get cost-of-living increases. Costs go up, but so do paychecks. So, no, I don't like it. But, it's a fact of life. Prices go up, on everything, from cars to gas to utilities to food, and yes, to toy soldiers.
If you think it's an unfair price increase, change the equation. If sales (not profits, buying from Neal doesn't help here, they're still moving goods) drop off, they'll be forced to re-evaluate their position. But if they don't - they're right. They're charging what the market bears, and that's the definition of a fair price.

Actually, we DO have access to those figures, and a not insignificant number of posters HAVE reached the same conclusion as you have.
The problem here is that Sturgeon's Law can be applied to people. 90% of people on the internet are not thinking logically, substituting how they feel about a given situation for any actual data.

Actually we have no figures for how many leave 'the hobby' or convert to other wargaming directly influenced by the increase in price. It is highly probable that a number of those who remain purchase less, so you have some leaving and some buying less. There is no increase in the new recruits in the way we saw during the 'Red Age' or the LotR movie age, the posted sales figures demonstrate a profit greatly influenced by IP sales.

What the market will bear is not equal to a fair price where no suitable competition exists. That's what I call a monopoly.

As I've said previously, GW needs more competition to remain healthy. I like their IP, history and games/minis for the most part, it would be a shame to revisit this in a few years and be pondering what the Mattel prepainted marines were going to be going up by for the year.

What the market will bear is not equal to a fair price where no suitable competition exists. That's what I call a monopoly.

Bang on the money
well, if not wholly correct to say that GW is a monopoly, it is as near as damn it.

GW knows that the demand is elastic. ie it doesn't conform to normal supply and demand, whereby demand will fall off if price increases. The lack of an effective competition further stretches the elasticity.

If this discussion has re occured annually for the last 6 years, it suggests that many continue buying, and there is plenty of fresh blood to be sucked dry despite the increased prices.

LEEQAEX wrote:Worse part is they think peopel will buy loads before price rise .

Actually this is the worse part. Because people actually will do this. No offence to anyone but who ever is suckered into doing this is just doing what GW want you to do so at least there ickle bit of report can show some increases.

Redbeard wrote:
Fact: Only a few of us have stopped buying miniatures because of increased prices.
Theory: Maybe GW, the publicly traded company with a professional corporate finance department actually do understand that their customer base is largely price insensitive. Perhaps they have a better grasp of their financial picture than a handful of internet posters who don't even have access to their sales figures.

The problem with this is two fold: One, this isn't the only time this has happened, and each time, a percentage of the existing base is lost that is not being made up as quickly by new players coming in, due to increased costs. GW is aware that new players are their prime source of income,however: they do not seem to realize that increased prices reduce the likelihood that someone will buy their products. GW has, in the past, made it clear that once you've already bought their products, you're dirt that is not welcome in their stores again until the next product line comes out, at which point you may be allowed to purchase their products again with your filthy money.

The second problem is: GW depends, probably more then it realizes, on word of mouth to sell it's products. If they come across as jerks to people, then they won't buy from them, and will end up getting into another game. As an example of this, see Pathfinder's sales against D&D 4e. Pathfinder is making inroads into what was, traditionally, a license to bilk nerds. Why? Because WotC (Hasbro) is perceived in a negative manner by a significant body of the fanbase who are traditionally resistant to change. Pathfinder is largely based off the 3.5 rule-set, and Paizo is seen as a victim of Hasbro's heavy handed destruction of Dragon Magazine. There are other reasons for this as well, but those are the ones that spring to mind.

Does this mean that GW is doomed? No. It means that they aren't making as much money as they could be, however. Higher volume at lower costs is the same profit, and will engender more repeat customers, which creates a higher long term profit.

I'm convinced that it is price fixing, pure and simple and good luck to anyone who want's to convince me otherwise.

This is a pretty clear example of why I believe this;

ORK BOYZ £12.00 £15.00
ORK LOOTAS AND BURNAS £13.50 £15.00

There you have two sets of the same plastic volume with the same size packaging and thus the same transport and storage costs.
One has gone up by £1.50 and the other £3, that isn't inflation and it isn't materials or overheads, it isn't even remotely consistent.
This is them stating that they think all plastic Ork troops (Nobz and stormboyz are also 15 each) should be the same price no matter their value in the game or how many sets you need, which flies in the face of previous pricing MO's.

I'm actually fine with them selling stuff based on how many/what size sprues it contains but only if they bring killa kanz and warbikes down to £15 too!

Ostrakon wrote:

The problem here is that Sturgeon's Law can be applied to people. 90% of people on the internet are not thinking logically, substituting how they feel about a given situation for any actual data.

Your self included of course.

You need to look up Elasticity of Goods, and the equillibrium point.
I don't Think GW or their professional corporate finance department has either.

I stopped buying years ago, I voted. I also hate seeing this thread year after year. But mainly because some fanboi comes out to defend them, and does it poorly.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

What the market will bear is not equal to a fair price where no suitable competition exists. That's what I call a monopoly.

Bang on the money
well, if not wholly correct to say that GW is a monopoly, it is as near as damn it.

They're only a monopoly because many gamers allow it. GW tell people only to buy and use their miniatures and they do! I don't know why, but some people take the "no non-GW" with them home and think it applies outside the shop in private games. Turn up in some places with a non-GW army and people act like there's something wrong with it. But in general gamers allow GW to call the shots instead of the other way around. How many people actually field warhammer armies that are not entirely GW even though they rarely go to the shop or attend an official event? Surely the manufacturer of the models is an irrelevance as long as it's clear what they are, skeletons and elves are all much alike. GW don't really have a monopoly, they just pretend they do. Is buying only GW really worth it simply to have an army that satisfies their artificial corporate rules? Gamers should take back the hobby, tell GW that they'll buy their rules and make armies up however they want, they'll buy some GW, and they'll buy a bit of everything else. And it won't even raise an eyebrow when you unpack your army at an event. GW are a big fish but they need not be treated as the only one in the pond. There's loads of competition for GW out there. Buying alternate rulesets can be tricky when finding like minded players, but there's no reason not to buy models from other retailers.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Point 2: GW would love to own things like 'Elf' or 'Orc' but it doesn't. There are plenty out there who already make metal minis better than GWs, take another look at gamezone miniatures. Once the plastic moulding tech is more widely available, GW will find it's self entrenched and at war in Fantasy mini market.

Ah, but the real money is in 40k!...

Point 3: Granted the Space Marine armour is an image that GW can call it's own, Post Apocalyptic Orks, Biomechanical Xenomorphs, Space Elves or Near Future WW3 trenchcoat wearing humans isn't. Others will push the boundaries to their limits as the plastics technology becomes more readily available. And someone producing 'Space knights' in powered armour that look as good as, but different enough to, space marines, isn't out of the question either...

Well quite. In fact I've recently wondered why they keep Fantasy afloat. It's probably that they are too indecisive about it, a bit like the way they've let Specialist Games drag on for years neither supporting nor killing it. Being brutal there's very little unique about Fantasy, most races are in the public domain so there's a lot of alternative fantasy suppliers out there. As plastic moulding becomes cheaper there's going to be more and more manufacturers offering exactly what GW do for a lot less. I also get the impression that it's 40K that pulls in the most money, especially Space Marines, but much of the 40K is unique to them. The stores don't take that much money, most of their profits are coming from licensing which hides their poor sales. They're virtually at the point where the IP of the company seems to be keeping them going. It would probably be best to wind up Fantasy and go full time into 40K as they own most of the imagery in that or sell the IP off in one go.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
What the market will bear is not equal to a fair price where no suitable competition exists. That's what I call a monopoly.

This is an idiotic statement. You need look no further than Warmachine to see that there is competition. Mantic is competition. Further out, you have historical wargames like FoW, you have other games that aren't wargames (like MtG or D&D). The only thing GW has a monopoly on is GW games.

Gargskull wrote:I'm convinced that it is price fixing, pure and simple and good luck to anyone who want's to convince me otherwise.

This is a pretty clear example of why I believe this;

ORK BOYZ £12.00 £15.00
ORK LOOTAS AND BURNAS £13.50 £15.00

There you have two sets of the same plastic volume with the same size packaging and thus the same transport and storage costs.

This shows a lack of understanding of pricing. As you've pointed out, they take the same material and packaging. So, clearly the variable costs are the same.

And, realistically, the fixed costs are the same. The same sculptors work on them, the same industrial mold-making cost, etc.

But here's the difference. The fixed costs are a large factor. If you consider that paying a sculptor a living wage means that he's probably making $50k/year, then the time he spends working on getting those models right is not an insignificant cost. If you further consider that the cost to produce the mold is in the hundreds of thousands of dollar range, well, that's not insignificant either. The fixed costs to produce a box of boyz, or lootas, is going to be the same, but it's going to be high, probably a couple hundred thousand all said.

The difference is in how many they expect to sell. If you play orks, you're going to buy at least 60 boyz, probably more. How many lootas will you buy? That means that the margins on the boy can be lower, because the fixed costs are being spread over a much larger number of sales. The lootas have to cost more in order to recoup your initial investment, because less of them will be sold overall.

This isn't price fixing, it's price setting, and it's a basic concept in any 1st year business class.

... if 'cost' has changed all that much, why do BFG battleships still cost the same? Most of them have ten minis worth of metal in them.

But that was my question last year with the 'the cost of metal is increasing' excuse. I wonder what it will be this year?

Gargskull wrote:I'm convinced that it is price fixing, pure and simple and good luck to anyone who want's to convince me otherwise.

This is a pretty clear example of why I believe this;

ORK BOYZ £12.00 £15.00
ORK LOOTAS AND BURNAS £13.50 £15.00

There you have two sets of the same plastic volume with the same size packaging and thus the same transport and storage costs.
One has gone up by £1.50 and the other £3, that isn't inflation and it isn't materials or overheads, it isn't even remotely consistent.
This is them stating that they think all plastic Ork troops (Nobz and stormboyz are also 15 each) should be the same price no matter their value in the game or how many sets you need, which flies in the face of previous pricing MO's.

I'm actually fine with them selling stuff based on how many/what size sprues it contains but only if they bring killa kanz and warbikes down to £15 too!

The Loota/Burna box is metal, is it not? You get 5, iirc.

Edit: Nvm, I'm wrong. It's 5 plastics.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

They're only a monopoly because many gamers allow it. [SNIP] Gamers should take back the hobby, tell GW that they'll buy their rules and make armies up however they want, they'll buy some GW, and they'll buy a bit of everything else. And it won't even raise an eyebrow when you unpack your army at an event. GW are a big fish but they need not be treated as the only one in the pond. There's loads of competition for GW out there. Buying alternate rulesets can be tricky when finding like minded players, but there's no reason not to buy models from other retailers.

That´s what I did. I´m building an IG army that uses alternative models for the rank and file with modified Tamiya WWII kits (that look much better than the LRBT) with some GW stuff that I like HWT, Command Squad. Not that I have played much lately but as I keep saying, I play the most popular rule set not the miniatures.

Well quite. In fact I've recently wondered why they keep Fantasy afloat. [SNIP]

In Continental Europe, at least until I left for Japan, WHFB was more popular than 40K. Back when I was in Uni everybody in the hobby had a fantasy army, perhaps because other miniatures were available or because it ties more closely to DnD, while only the more "wargamery" of the lot played 40K. Now I´m cut from the pipeline so I can´t say if this continues to be so but that´s the reason GW still carries WHFB IMO.

M.

Ostrakon wrote: GW is stupid and run by short-sighted asshats, but they aren't evil.

I must thoroughly agree with that, because I legitimately believe that far too many people make up the company for it to be evil. At the same time GW has a long and gory history of poor management decisions (anyone who bought one of the old paint pots that wouldn't seal after using it two or three times, or when they tried to sell 9 paints for $25 when individually they were $2.50 knows what I mean). To that end I think it's safe to say that, like any monopolisticly competitive firm, they should charge less to plan for the long run rather than the short term. Plus let's face it, $25 for two sprues that make a Piranha is getting pretty silly

I'm seriously considering becoming my own distributor of miniatures. I have a brick and mortar store for another line of business and I may just piggy back it into one of the larger distributor companies for the 43% discount..

Sad isn't it? The lengths one will go through to feed a plastic addiction.

In that case, I guess the internet is the only way to purchase anything without killing what's left in my wallet.

And GW isn't evil. I've met a red-shirt (Or black, take your pic) that's been an actually decent fellow.

I haven't been to my local GW in a while, so I can't say about that, but the manager at The Block at Orange is pretty solid.

This is an idiotic statement. You need look no further than Warmachine to see that there is competition. Mantic is competition. Further out, you have historical wargames like FoW, you have other games that aren't wargames (like MtG or D&D). The only thing GW has a monopoly on is GW games.

This is why I made the comment that GW is not an actual monopoly.
However, it is not entirely accurate to compare GW to other gaming systems in this context on the basis that they are games. You could extend that arguement to include video games.

The video discussion had it correct imho when they differentiated between the dedicated GW gamer and the Wargammer, who has different systems.
For the former, if they want to play WHFB or 40K they are effectively stuck with GW. For the latter it is easier to say stuff GW for a game of soldiers, am off to play FOW. But some of that group will also wish to continue with GW games.
As mentioned elsewhere if you wish to compete at GW tournies then you really are dependent on GW products.

Effectively, GW do operate as a monopoly.

Perhaps it really is time to quit the hand wringing and say enough is enough.
Personally don't give a flying poo how cruddy the old DE codex is. I will continue to use it rather than pay nearly 20 quid for a glossy brochure that is likely to fall apart.
Will buy 2nd hand and scratchbuild and not hand over the readies until GW start behaving like good girls and boys.

I am in the fortunate position to be able to do this. I genuinely feel sorry for the poor saps that are gonna get clobbered to play their chosen hobby.
The price increase will be followed by some major releases, including the 8th Edition WHFB. That could prove quite painful for some if the points system changes as per the rumours.

By your definition, Warmachine/Hordes are also a monopoly.

PRIVATEER PRESS IS EVIL SOULLESS CORPORATION!

See how that line of reasoning works?

Rikashi wrote:I stopped buying years ago, I voted.

This.

I stopped buying years ago, but come around once in a while to check up on the game. I actually went and checked the prices on the GW website and my jaw literally dropped. I have no idea how people can pay such ludicrous amounts for 4 flimsy pieces of plastic. Tactical Squads were overpriced when they were $20 in 3rd Edition. they have experienced a 75% increase in price in 12 years since then. Codexes have gotten over a 100% increase in price. I'm...stunned that people still buy this stuff. I think crack is cheaper, and less addictive too.

Hell, I still play BFG, and its prices are the same as when I started. Someone care to justify why the fringe game costs the same but the more popular, mass produced game has gone up dramatically in price?

Mad Rabbit wrote:

Let's take a look at newcomers Mantic Games:
One year of their magazine: $15 (White Dwarf: $75)
Box of 20 Skeletons: $25 (VC skeletons are $22 for 10)

The only downside to Mantic so far is that they've only released two armies, and it hasn't gained enough popularity yet to have opponents. Once these guys take off, that's another nail in the GW coffin.
Either way, I'll be subscribing to their magazine to see what's going on with them.

QFT. I'll give you that yes, the company and their range are both small, but the value that they offer is nothing i've ever seen from Games Workshop in about 10 years. I'll be gettin their mag as well.

I've been considering revisiting my Vampire Counts army that I started so many years ago (the first army I collected). Originally just bought whatever I thought looked great, never really played the game much at the time. Now I've been looking at the Helikaeth's Legion set from Mantic to get myself started again, possibly buying a few other figs from em too for the fun. Now, I've just looked at the site again, and they're offering a free bag with orders over £50 until the 31st of May. Never seen that from GW. Oh wait, buy a years subscription to WD and get 1 limited edition figure...lame. Onto the actual boxed sets however, with Mantic you get 2 free models with it (although for the amount you get I wouldn't care dropping another fiver here, as well as what appears to be 3 cases for the figures. Now this costs £65 for 108 figures and 2 catapults, cases, poster.

Before the price rise, £65 to GW will net you 50 figures and 1 corpse cart and the codex/army book.

I know who's gettin my money. Hell, Mantic's own game might even be better than WHFB, although I haven't heard much about it tbh.

Kanluwen wrote:By your definition, Warmachine/Hordes are also a monopoly.

PRIVATEER PRESS IS EVIL SOULLESS CORPORATION!

See how that line of reasoning works?

Not really

and

REALLY?

unless Privateer Press insist that only their products are used, in which case possibly.

Also I said that GW effectively operates as a monopoly, and have twice stated that they are not technically a monopoly.
There is a subtle distinction.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:By your definition, Warmachine/Hordes are also a monopoly.

PRIVATEER PRESS IS EVIL SOULLESS CORPORATION!

See how that line of reasoning works?

Not really

and

REALLY?

unless Privateer Press insist that only their products are used, in which case possibly.

Also I said that GW effectively operates as a monopoly, and have twice stated that they are not technically a monopoly.
There is a subtle distinction.

Does anyone else or any third party make Warjacks?
No.
Does anyone make add-ons for Warjack kits or warcasters?
Nope.

Hey guess what, that's a monopoly on production!

I might point out that I've never had a rep from Privateer press tell me I can't play their game because 1 in 20 minis I bought off them I had changed the heads to something they hadn't produced, either.

GW has done that.

Then you had a rep that took their "majority must be GW parts, excluding scratchbuilds" rule far far beyond what it's meant to be.


But hey, it's their tournaments. Their rules.

I'm still waiting to see examples of anything that's not a scratchbuild or an official Privateer kit from their tournaments.

Since you don't have to spend $800 to fit out a decent army, why would you?

It's like Battlefleet Gothic. Since it doesn't COST huge amounts, unless you want something like an Endeavor that's OOP, why would you take the time? the only reason I kitbash BFG is to get the odd ships out of BFGM that never had kits, like the Long Serpent, or to make a showpiece mini with a Voss prow.

I don't HAVE to do that to cut costs like a I do with 40k. While I like to think that my skills are improving with greens because of GW's price tyranny, it's getting absurd. Every time I save up enough spare dough to start looking at buying something new rather then resurrecting broken ebay minis, they jack the price up higher. And I'm getting fed up with it.

Frankly, Kanluwen, you sound like the kind of person that Jervis could bend over and rape out of the blue in the middle of the street and you'd claim to the police that it was *your* fault for being too attractive.

I'm just going to post to say I'm surprised obliterators didn't go up in price.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Frankly, Kanluwen, you sound like the kind of person that Jervis could bend over and rape out of the blue in the middle of the street and you'd claim to the police that it was *your* fault for being too attractive.

Now that's a bit harsh, lol....

However, PP has, and will again, not allowed players to use non-PP items in tourneys. So has Battlefront for FoW. The point is you can't call a company a monopoly based off of their rules that you use their stuff at tournaments that they sponsor or support to gain access to whatever follow on tourney it leads too.

I don't agree with the GW business model they are using and most likely it will bite them in the ass some day down the road. How far is up to them and their players. Since I'm in their "old geezer" catagory, I don't count. I rarely buy anything new since I have 1.5 billion points of everything under the sun. I do feel that raising the entry price to their world is a big mistake.

Just look at the entry price for the average game size in any system, and you will see that GW is by far the most costly.