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BaronIveagh wrote:Since you don't have to spend $800 to fit out a decent army, why would you?

Sorry, what does cost of armies have to do with anything? People complain about "oh, this sculpt isn't what I want" or "bleh, Cadians are so overdone", etc. Never does price come up.

It's like Battlefleet Gothic. Since it doesn't COST huge amounts, unless you want something like an Endeavor that's OOP, why would you take the time? the only reason I kitbash BFG is to get the odd ships out of BFGM that never had kits, like the Long Serpent, or to make a showpiece mini with a Voss prow.

Point. However, Battlefleet Gothic was also released at the same time as a lot of 40k/Fantasy units not having existing models either so the same logic there applied.

I don't HAVE to do that to cut costs like I do with 40k. While I like to think that my skills are improving with greens because of GW's price tyranny, it's getting absurd. Every time I save up enough spare dough to start looking at buying something new rather then resurrecting broken ebay minis, they jack the price up higher. And I'm getting fed up with it.

Then stop pussyfooting around, and quit the game system altogether. Put your current stuff in storage or sell it, and just quit until you feel the company and hobby have changed enough that it's time to come back rather than being one of those who are constantly whining about it.

Frankly, Kanluwen, you sound like the kind of person that Jervis could bend over and rape out of the blue in the middle of the street and you'd claim to the police that it was *your* fault for being too attractive.

Originally I wasn't going to reply to this part, but since your argument hinges upon how I "sound" here goes:
This is one of those idiotic statements that make me want to smack people.
I have no problems paying GW prices. I have no problems with the way they run their business. I put aside a set amount every paycheck that goes towards entertainment.
Does it go to GW all the time? No. Do I look into other companies to check out what they offer? Of course, who doesn't? Do I think that, as a company, they can feth up royally like any other corporate entity? Sure. I point you to the Sega Saturn, Betamax, and any number of stupid ideas done by successful companies.
At the end of the day, that's all GW is. A corporation that has gone from where companies like MinMax, Mantic, Chapterhouse, etc are(small, garage based outfits that are looking to get whatever crumbs they can from the table of something bigger) to being effectively -the- biggest brand and most recognizable corporate face of tabletop wargaming.

Oh, and just as an afterthought:
When you go around stating things like "Jervis(who, by the by, doesn't have anything to do with the prices and actual health of the company) could rape me and I'd say it was my fault" makes your argument effectively equivalent to a moron tossing around a blinking light and claiming it's the sun. It's ludicrous and makes you sound like a blithering fool.

Frankly, Kanluwen, you sound like the kind of person that Jervis could bend over and rape out of the blue in the middle of the street and you'd claim to the police that it was *your* fault for being too attractive.

In before whiny nerds complain that toy tanks are too expensive for their minimum wage lifesty...

Damn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Please consider what I have written. Because when I quite buying GW, I'll be selling my armies off and buying into Warmachine and possilby Flames of War. Not only will you lose my purchases, but you'll lose sales from the people who buy my armies- they won't need to buy anything from you as my armies are complete. Then, to add insult to injury, other companies will be getting my dollars and the dollars of my friends- which will further erode your market share.

For reference, when you're submitting open letters with ludicrously short lists of participants who all use anonymous internet names try to spell it correctly.

TalonZahn wrote:Now that's a bit harsh, lol....

Not really. Every time I see him in one of these threads he's up there screaming about how GW can do no wrong and is the greatest thing since particles fused together into atoms. And if you try and pin him down, he turns to the worst sort of circular logic. I wouldn't be surprised if he was one of the people who announced their 'resignation' from Dark Reign's forums because people were too 'hard' on GW's interference with FFG's attempts to make good RPGs.

Of course, I was also standing at the door throwing flowers as they left, which resulted in my gaining the title 'scathing cynic' on that forum...

Only posts I've seen from you over on FFG was whining about Female Marines being "necessary".

Was adorable.

Actually, at no point did I ever state they were necessary, so you might want to learn to read. Though I did post in a thread where the op suggested that having no possibility of female characters for approximately 20-30% of the target demographic was going to cripple DW as a salable item. Which I agreed was not a good marketing strategy and suggested possible alternate explanations for GMs wishing to have such a thing, such as Doc Thunders idea.


Ah, I see Shuma has arrived too.

And, by the way, I was one of the winners of the ship component building competition on the RT forum there, so you REALLY don't read very well, do you?

Ah, I see Shuma has arrived too.

When nerds cry on the internet instead of voting with their wallets I'll always be there.

Shuma, I already voted with my wallet, so move along.

BaronIveagh wrote:Since you don't have to spend $800 to fit out a decent army, why would you?

It's like Battlefleet Gothic. Since it doesn't COST huge amounts, unless you want something like an Endeavor that's OOP, why would you take the time? the only reason I kitbash BFG is to get the odd ships out of BFGM that never had kits, like the Long Serpent, or to make a showpiece mini with a Voss prow.

I don't HAVE to do that to cut costs like a I do with 40k. While I like to think that my skills are improving with greens because of GW's price tyranny, it's getting absurd. Every time I save up enough spare dough to start looking at buying something new rather then resurrecting broken ebay minis, they jack the price up higher. And I'm getting fed up with it.

Frankly, Kanluwen, you sound like the kind of person that Jervis could bend over and rape out of the blue in the middle of the street and you'd claim to the police that it was *your* fault for being too attractive.

So defending GW is equivalent to asking to get raped by Jervis?

I guess I really don't get the bitching. Compared to a lot of things out there 40k/Fantasy is cheap. As far as tournaments goes not very many corporate sponsored tournaments allow the use of another corporations products. You think drivers of Porsche's bitch when Ferrari holds a rally and ONLY Ferrari's are allowed to enter? You think some guy with a Nascar racing car throws temper tantrums because he can't race that car in a Formula One race?

Price tyranny? Wow, perhaps someone should get out in the world and do something other than play 40K. Bitch to me about price tyranny after you play paintball for a few years (and I mean hardcore tournament paintball, not "get together with 4 guys in the woods" paintball). Get a golf club membership. For what it costs for 18 holes of golf I can buy a couple of Battleforces and at least the minis in the Battleforce will last until the next codex for that army (or in the case of marines probably until I decide to quit playing) whereas 18 holes can be played in about 3 hours.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frankly, Kanluwen, you sound like the kind of person that Jervis could bend over and rape out of the blue in the middle of the street and you'd claim to the police that it was *your* fault for being too attractive.

In before whiny nerds complain that toy tanks are too expensive for their minimum wage lifesty...

Damn.

You missed it by like two pages, Shuma.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Please consider what I have written. Because when I quite buying GW, I'll be selling my armies off and buying into Warmachine and possilby Flames of War. Not only will you lose my purchases, but you'll lose sales from the people who buy my armies- they won't need to buy anything from you as my armies are complete. Then, to add insult to injury, other companies will be getting my dollars and the dollars of my friends- which will further erode your market share.

For reference, when you're submitting open letters with ludicrously short lists of participants who all use anonymous internet names try to spell it correctly.

But how else will they know you're superserial?

You guys are funny.

How long have you been married?

Kanluwen wrote:Sorry, what does cost of armies have to do with anything?

I think this is pretty much the crux of the entire explosion. Entry price is way above anything else out there, for a new person to field an army at common points levels. New players are freaking out because of the % of the hike. Older players most likely don't give a crap since they own everything. Although they don't help the situation with all the "Back in my day 30 marines was $25!" Which they were, I still have the box from 20 years ago.

So, what exactly is GW trying to gain from this? We know they want more money, but where do they think it will come from? The constant hikes will just continue to push people away. The more they hike, the more people leave. So they hike it again, rinse/repeat.

Someone already said it. Maybe they will either die or be reborn.

Either way, it should be a positive for the TT community in the end.

BaronIveagh wrote:Shuma, I already voted with my wallet, so move along.

But you are still crying about it.

If you are done buying GW than you have no room to bitch about the price as it no longer affects you once you've stopped buying. Cry about it WHILE buying, don't cry about it after you stop.

I quit playing paintball 5 years ago. I don't hang out in the WDP forums and bitch about the increasing price of Angel paintball guns or accessories as their product no longer affects my life.

New players are freaking out because of the % of the hike.

No. Lets be real here, new players for the most part won't even know this happened. They don't follow early price announcements gleaned from the internet.

Older players most likely don't give a crap since they own everything.

Funny how older players are the ones with the loudest voices in these threads.

Although they don't help the situation with all the "Back in my day 30 marines was $25!" Which they were, I still have the box from 20 years ago.

The models were also terrible and gave you lead poisoning 20 years ago.

So, what exactly is GW trying to gain from this? We know they want more money, but where do they think it will come from? The constant hikes will just continue to push people away. The more they hike, the more people leave. So they hike it again, rinse/repeat.

I haven't seen a convincing line of statistics noting a player loss due to price increase yet in threads of this nature. Nor have I seen it in quarterlies. They vented money on the lord of the rings debaucle, but they don't appear to have hit a price ceiling significant enough to cause a loss of business yet. Keep in mind the quality of the service they provide has risen significantly in the last decade.

TalonZahn wrote:You guys are funny.

How long have you been married?

Kanluwen wrote:Sorry, what does cost of armies have to do with anything?

I think this is pretty much the crux of the entire explosion. Entry price is way above anything else out there, for a new person to field an army at common points levels. New players are freaking out because of the % of the hike. Older players most likely don't give a crap since they own everything. Although they don't help the situation with all the "Back in my day 30 marines was $25!" Which they were, I still have the box from 20 years ago.

So, what exactly is GW trying to gain from this? We know they want more money, but where do they think it will come from? The constant hikes will just continue to push people away. The more they hike, the more people leave. So they hike it again, rinse/repeat.

Someone already said it. Maybe they will either die or be reborn.

Either way, it should be a positive for the TT community in the end.

How are new players freaking? If they are new they don't know the new price vs old price (unless they happen to start during a price hike). We also don't know how many people are being pushed away by the price hike. I bet Dakkaites THINK it's a much larger number than it really is. Reality is they probably lose 2% of the vets but gain 10% more newbs. See, I can pull numbers out my ass too.

That's the problem with price hike threads (or any anti-GW thread). 5% of Dakka thinks they represent 99.9% of the world player base. I always /facedesk when I see someone say gak like "the vast majority of CSM players hate the 4th ed. codex" or "Tyranid players hate the new tyranid codex and so GW must be losing sales on Tyranids."

Epic fail Dakka.

TalonZahn wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Sorry, what does cost of armies have to do with anything?

I think this is pretty much the crux of the entire explosion. Entry price is way above anything else out there, for a new person to field an army at common points levels. New players are freaking out because of the % of the hike. Older players most likely don't give a crap since they own everything. Although they don't help the situation with all the "Back in my day 30 marines was $25!" Which they were, I still have the box from 20 years ago.

The vast majority of the people complaining here aren't new players. They're people who you might put under the "older players who own everything" label or who also might be put under a label of "must buy since it's new!".

Of course, that same group also wouldn't care since they order online from discount retailers for the most part, or hit up FeeBay.

So, what exactly is GW trying to gain from this? We know they want more money, but where do they think it will come from? The constant hikes will just continue to push people away. The more they hike, the more people leave. So they hike it again, rinse/repeat.

Someone already said it. Maybe they will either die or be reborn.

Fateweaver wrote:
So defending GW is equivalent to asking to get raped by Jervis?

I guess I really don't get the bitching. Compared to a lot of things out there 40k/Fantasy is cheap. As far as tournaments goes not very many corporate sponsored tournaments allow the use of another corporations products. You think drivers of Porsche's bitch when Ferrari holds a rally and ONLY Ferrari's are allowed to enter? You think some guy with a Nascar racing car throws temper tantrums because he can't race that car in a Formula One race?

Price tyranny? Wow, perhaps someone should get out in the world and do something other than play 40K. Bitch to me about price tyranny after you play paintball for a few years (and I mean hardcore tournament paintball, not "get together with 4 guys in the woods" paintball). Get a golf club membership. For what it costs for 18 holes of golf I can buy a couple of Battleforces and at least the minis in the Battleforce will last until the next codex for that army (or in the case of marines probably until I decide to quit playing) whereas 18 holes can be played in about 3 hours.

*sigh* first of all, try being a reenactor with the artillery. Those guys should switch to cocaine, it'd be cheaper.

That said: Every time I see Kanluwen on this forum, if someone says something negative about GW, right or wrong, he's up there, even when it's an entirely indefensible act, trying to make it sound like they're so perfect they crap frozen strawberry yogurt. And he'll 'forget' facts between threads. Even one's he's posting on simultaneously. When confronted with facts, he tries to discredit them, and if he can't, he'll claim that the information is from an unreliable source. Like GW is lying to it's investors or something. It's like having a GW spin doctor wandering around the forums.

However, I'm a stubborn individual, and am not going to back down. "We'll, they're a corporation, they're in it for the money!" No gak! So are war profiteers and arms merchants, but I don't hear people singing their praises.

I'm sure Kan has his beefs with GW. Perhaps he's listed them and you didn't read properly or he just doesn't bitch for 10 pages about GW.

Trust me, I have issues with GW (well, in the past I did) and price is not one of them. If I think it's too high I'll stop buying and then disassociate myself altogether from buying GW and I'll STOP BITCHING ABOUT PRICES.

It's totally unnecessary to bitch about GW product prices AFTER you have stopped buying them.

Some "facts" posted by GW haters ARE made up. I hear terms tossed around like "majority" or "a large percentage". Those terms are fallacious in their use. You can't prove the "majority" are pissed about the price hikes, you can't prove the "majority" hate the CSM codex. You can't prove that GW lost money on the CSM army because the codex is apparently awful.

Unless the GW haters have gone door to door to every household on the globe and conducted a survey most of the "facts" bandied about by people like HBMC and you and MGS cannot be proven nor will they ever be proven. You 3 do not the 40k player base make so quit acting like you speak for everyone.

Sweet, 3 people at once on me.

OK, here goes:

New players that got in 6 months ago have some small vested interest. They have a long hill to climb and bitch because what was $25 3 months ago is now $30 with no improvements made to that product. Older players bitch because of the price increase vs. units required/made core/seen essential to win/play I.E. Cadian basic troops. My primary point here is entry price to the game will lead to people not coming into the game. See my point about common point levels played vs. cost when compared to other games. A 2000 point 40K army is far more expensive than a 2000 point FoW, for example. Just to save you the time, every low count army you toss out for one system, another system can do the same thing for less money. Even starter box to starter box.

The minis I refer to for 30@$25 were plastics. If you die from lead poisioning from a mini, you were bound to remove yourself from the gene pool sooner than later anyway.

I doubt there will ever be statistics as I imagine GW would be the only ones with accurate info, and you know they would never release them.

I never claimed numbers, not sure where you got that. Also, anyone on the internet knows that the majority lurk and the minority rage. It's like that in the real world too. It's also why I have @60 posts and you have almost 3k.

My original post was directed at Kan's #2 item. I believe that is their biggest hole in the entire business plan. No other miniature company does that.

I'm glad I could get you all to focus on me and the topic and not about Jervis raping people for lunch money.

Just remember what I stated in the last thread that got locked:

A complaining gamer is a happy gamer.

TalonZahn wrote:I'm glad I could get you all to focus on me and the topic and not about Jervis raping people for lunch money.

It is quite a vivid image, isn't it?

I might point out that I had been reasonable in this thread, a page ago when I first posted here, to have Kan inform me that GW has a god given right to treat me like dirt because it's 'their game, their rules'.

I might add that 'their rules' also apparently included the employee having the right to remove the offending heads from said minis when I refereed to him the exact wording of the rule on how much GW bits are required per mini. A loss of a grand total of about 45 hours of work. I was told by GW corporate that such matters were 'entirely at the discretion of individual store managers'.

BaronIveagh wrote:

TalonZahn wrote:I'm glad I could get you all to focus on me and the topic and not about Jervis raping people for lunch money.

It is quite a vivid image, isn't it?

I might point out that I had been reasonable in this thread, a page ago when I first posted here, to have Kan inform me that GW has a god given right to treat me like dirt because it's 'their game, their rules'.

I might add that 'their rules' also apparently included the employee having the right to remove the offending heads from said minis when I refereed to him the exact wording of the rule on how much GW bits are required per mini. A loss of a grand total of about 45 hours of work. I was told by GW corporate that such matters were 'entirely at the discretion of individual store managers'.

If that is true (I'm sorry I don't believe that GW are that pat in sanctioning wilful destruction of property) then that is for another thread entirely.

GW have a right (possibly the wrong word) to do what they wish with their pricing structure. It always comes over as harsh when someone mentions this, nonetheless, its true.

As a consumer I do not have to accept GW's pricing and am free to look elsewhere.

As for new players, they do not have any real price exceptions except that, upon entering the hobby, they should know how much they can afford to spend and will be able to judge how much enjoyment they are getting per $ or £ spent. If starter boxes are too much then fine, they should be looking elsewhere for their entertainment.

If the ratio of new players to players exiting the hobby drops then GW will probably have to look at alternative strategies (depending on how happy their investors are, of course).

BaronIveagh wrote:I might add that 'their rules' also apparently included the employee having the right to remove the offending heads from said minis when I refereed to him the exact wording of the rule on how much GW bits are required per mini. A loss of a grand total of about 45 hours of work. I was told by GW corporate that such matters were 'entirely at the discretion of individual store managers'.

Wait, hold on, the guy didn't actually physically go and break the heads off your models did he?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:I might add that 'their rules' also apparently included the employee having the right to remove the offending heads from said minis when I refereed to him the exact wording of the rule on how much GW bits are required per mini. A loss of a grand total of about 45 hours of work. I was told by GW corporate that such matters were 'entirely at the discretion of individual store managers'.

Wait, hold on, the guy didn't actually physically go and break the heads off your models did he?

Its what it sounds like. I would have called the cops and then sued for destruction of my property.

Of course that wont hold up if I allow them to do that in order to play with my dollies in their stupid stores (thank goodness for the freedom of independent FLGS's).

Redbeard wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
What the market will bear is not equal to a fair price where no suitable competition exists. That's what I call a monopoly.

This is an idiotic statement. You need look no further than Warmachine to see that there is competition. Mantic is competition. Further out, you have historical wargames like FoW, you have other games that aren't wargames (like MtG or D&D). The only thing GW has a monopoly on is GW games.

Don't wheel out that trite bs at me.

There is no competition in multipart 'standard fare' fantasy figures, GW have a monopoly by point of saturation of the market.

It has no serious rivals atm, Privateer are making inroads, however their own prices have risen over the years and their aesthetic is a fixed one. Mantic are only starting out on their way to being a rival but they only have 2 incomplete ranges so far.

Your comparison would also include going to the pub, talking to your wife, working overtime and contemplating if you're the only real person and everyone else is robots... So who's making idiotic statements again?

7 alerts. Well played gents!