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Laodamia wrote:

NagothDaCleaver wrote: We get it, you like Leman Russ, too bad he failed to kill the one Primarch he was sent to kill...some executioner. Sure he broke his back and would have killed him if he hadn't ascended to Demon-Princedom... shoulda-woulda-coulda ...he didn't. Magnus is still a scourge to the galaxy.

Good point, but since we are talking about a primarch fight, we can still consider the fact that Russ bested magnus in combat. I believe this achievement give him the right to be in the top 5.

Who didn't really defend himself. If he did, Russ wouldn't have made it even to Prospero. So much for Russ being the ultimate Primarch. Fluff suggests, if anything, that Horus was the best primarch, closely followed by Sang, not Russ.

Laodamia wrote:

Good point, but since we are talking about a primarch fight, we can still consider the fact that Russ bested magnus in combat. I believe this achievement give him the right to be in the top 5.

While I'm not doubting his place in any top 5, people keep using his victory over Magnus the red as an example of how bad ass he is.
If this is your example of superior battle prowess than either you haven't read "A Thousand Sons" or you forget how that fight went.


So I don't know where all of this "Russ is so amazing because of how he owned Magnus!" got going, but clearly if "A Thousand Sons" is cannon, than Magnus had Russ on the ropes just as badly and Russ got the lucky shot that let him win.

It is what it is folks.

Are we counting the big E as possible primarch to the custodes here?
If we are, I know who my money is on

Magnus DID defend himself. He started fighting with all he had when he saw the wolves sacking his homeworld.

As for the fight between him and russ, I definitely agree it was a narrow victory and that the fight could have gone either way. But it is pretty much the same thing for other primarch duels and fights. Think about fulgrim against Ferrus. It was also a terrible fight, but we all agree that Fulgrim deserves respect for finally beheading Ferrus Manus. It is the same thing for Russ vs Magnus. The fight was terribly violent and disputed, but Russ won.

Laodamia wrote:Magnus DID defend himself. He started fighting with all he had when he saw the wolves sacking his homeworld.

As for the fight between him and russ, I definitely agree it was a narrow victory and that the fight could have gone either way. But it is pretty much the same thing for other primarch duels and fights. Think about fulgrim against Ferrus. It was also a terrible fight, but we all agree that Fulgrim deserves respect for finally beheading Ferrus Manus. It is the same thing for Russ vs Magnus. The fight was terribly violent and disputed, but Russ won.

Yes, he defended himself when he already gave up his biggest advantage more or less. If he struck while Russ was still in space, the outcome could've been very different.

Mit Gas wrote:

Laodamia wrote:Magnus DID defend himself. He started fighting with all he had when he saw the wolves sacking his homeworld.

As for the fight between him and russ, I definitely agree it was a narrow victory and that the fight could have gone either way. But it is pretty much the same thing for other primarch duels and fights. Think about fulgrim against Ferrus. It was also a terrible fight, but we all agree that Fulgrim deserves respect for finally beheading Ferrus Manus. It is the same thing for Russ vs Magnus. The fight was terribly violent and disputed, but Russ won.

Yes, he defended himself when he already gave up his biggest advantage more or less. If he struck while Russ was still in space, the outcome could've been very different.

They probably would have still lost but the SW would have taken more casualties...

purplefood wrote:

Mit Gas wrote:

Laodamia wrote:Magnus DID defend himself. He started fighting with all he had when he saw the wolves sacking his homeworld.

As for the fight between him and russ, I definitely agree it was a narrow victory and that the fight could have gone either way. But it is pretty much the same thing for other primarch duels and fights. Think about fulgrim against Ferrus. It was also a terrible fight, but we all agree that Fulgrim deserves respect for finally beheading Ferrus Manus. It is the same thing for Russ vs Magnus. The fight was terribly violent and disputed, but Russ won.

Yes, he defended himself when he already gave up his biggest advantage more or less. If he struck while Russ was still in space, the outcome could've been very different.

They probably would have still lost but the SW would have taken more casualties...

Maybe or maybe they would've lost even worse or they would've obliterated the space wolves because they are lame. We'll never know!

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:

Temujin wrote:Sanguinius' rage was such that he was continuously courted by Khornate daemons hoping to turn him to their side. Win or lose, he wouldn't fly away from anyone - he's fly directly towards them while suppressing the urge to scream Blood for the Blood God.

To Gwar.

Sanguinius didn't have a choice. Try and kill Horus or try and get away. He saw what Horus had become and decided to fight.
Although not covered in the original Bill King story from WD 161 later sources say that due to injuries sustained sanguinius was no match for the daemon feuled horus. So who knows how close a fight would have been if both were fit.

Sanguinius broke the back of a bloodthirster.
Horus seems to enjoy strutting around in fur....

Don't forget that this was AFTER he had broken the back of a bloodthirster on his previously broken legs/knees and during the battle for terra, which he had never stopped participating in. If he wasn't weakened after that, then there is nothing in the galaxy that can.

This discussion would probably benefit from a set of ground rules upon which to base these hypothetical combats. Different Primarchs were good at different things after all. The majority of people seem to be looking at this as one on one single combat to the death so that is the angle I will approach this from. For what it is worth I am going to disqualify Magnus right now because his potential destruction of Russ's fleet while it was is the warp, impressive as it would have been, never actually happened. When he actually had to face Russ in single combat he wasn't able to beat him. Maybe Russ was lucky to win, or maybe Magnus was lucky to last as long as he did before getting beaten. We just don't know. That said, here are my picks for top 5 Primarchs in no particular order. Please remember that the assumption here is one on one combat to the death.

Top 5
Sanguinius- He beat up the baddest of all Bloodthirsters and told Angron to shove his surrender terms where the sun doesn't shine, sure he got stomped by Horus but even the Emperor had some trouble with him.

Fulgrim- Killed Ferrus Manus in single combat, killed Guilliman in single combat, and beat an Avatar of Khaine to death with his bare hands. He may be a pretty boy but, whether you like it or not, he has the most impressive record of anyone in Primarch v. Primarch combat.

Russ- He beat Magnus in combat and the other Primarch's seem to be a little intimidated by him which has to count for something.

Angron- A specialist in one on one combat and a stone cold killer. Also, please don't fool yourselves about this kind of single combat. Being bigger and stronger than the other guy counts for a lot. Why do you think boxing, MMA, and other combat sports have weight classes?

The Lion- I'm not totally sold on this one, I'll admit it up front. He doesn't seem to have any real qualifications to be on this list. On the other hand, he did go toe to toe with Russ for a whole day which earns him some respect.

If I had to pick a number one I would have to go with Fulgrim purely because of his established record of victories.

One more thing that needs addressing. This nonsense of Russ "almost" beating the Emperor is total gak in every way. When they first met Russ challenged, and beat, the Emperor in a drinking contest and an eating contest. The Emperor got annoyed at the silly contests and called Russ a drunk and a glutton. Russ got upset, stepped up to the Emperor like a man, and got hit so hard that he didn't wake up for a week. It wasn't even close. The Emperor made Russ look like a pre-pubescent. In an effort to facilitate an intelligent discussion, as intelligent as a hypothetical conversation about fictional characters can be anyway, could we please try to leave the fan boy hyperbole at the door?

andain841 wrote:Fulgrim- Killed Ferrus Manus in single combat, killed Guilliman in single combat, and beat an Avatar of Khaine to death with his bare hands. He may be a pretty boy but, whether you like it or not, he has the most impressive record of anyone in Primarch v. Primarch combat.

All this he did while possessed. IMO it doesn't count.

The only fluff I know that describes one on one combat between two primarchs, that does not involve an outside influence, is the one between Russ and the Lion. And the only reason that ended with a winner, is that Russ gave up. Even Logar held his own against Corex intill Cruze intervened. IMO the only way a primarch can kill another primarch is with a thrid party. The fluff supports that.

Why is thinking the emperor purposefully planned the HH so far fetched?

he was a very powerful psyker and could see the future and the world very different than even the primarchs.

Lots of things suggest it was on purpose such as lots of the events that caused the HH happening when the traitors travelled back in time. the emperor even sees traitor horus in the past.

the emperor is now a full on god in 40k and i for one honestly believe he planned the HH to make himself a god so he could have a better chance of saving humanity.

the rout wrote:Why is thinking the emperor purposefully planned the HH so far fetched?

he was a very powerful psyker and could see the future and the world very different than even the primarchs.

Lots of things suggest it was on purpose such as lots of the events that caused the HH happening when the traitors travelled back in time. the emperor even sees traitor horus in the past.

the emperor is now a full on god in 40k and i for one honestly believe he planned the HH to make himself a god so he could have a better chance of saving humanity.

No one is talking about this, because this is a thread about Primarch Vs Primarch

Laodamia wrote:

NagothDaCleaver wrote: We get it, you like Leman Russ, too bad he failed to kill the one Primarch he was sent to kill...some executioner. Sure he broke his back and would have killed him if he hadn't ascended to Demon-Princedom... shoulda-woulda-coulda ...he didn't. Magnus is still a scourge to the galaxy.

Good point, but since we are talking about a primarch fight, we can still consider the fact that Russ bested magnus in combat. I believe this achievement give him the right to be in the top 5.

but remember Magnus the Red felt he deserved what the wolves were doing to his legion, methinks he didn't try against russ

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Laodamia wrote:

NagothDaCleaver wrote: We get it, you like Leman Russ, too bad he failed to kill the one Primarch he was sent to kill...some executioner. Sure he broke his back and would have killed him if he hadn't ascended to Demon-Princedom... shoulda-woulda-coulda ...he didn't. Magnus is still a scourge to the galaxy.

Good point, but since we are talking about a primarch fight, we can still consider the fact that Russ bested magnus in combat. I believe this achievement give him the right to be in the top 5.

but remember Magnus the Red felt he deserved what the wolves were doing to his legion, methinks he didn't try against russ

Maybe, I'm still not sure about his point.

The fluff tends to say that magnus did fight his brother with all he had, since the description of the duel in Thousand Sons is pretty violent. But it is true that at first, he felt he deserved what happened to his homeworld. Therefore, saying that he still lacked a bit of motivation during the fight is possible. There's probably no answer to this question...

i am a big fan of russ it is true and it wasnt hyperbole reffering to his challenge to the emperor i read he "he nearly defeted the emperor when he challenged him" somewhere. russ though at the end of the day is still a primarch killer. fulgrim did kill primarchs but only the ones who werent and arent considered the big fighters.

sanguinius is impressive but he does get completely and totally owned. he doesnt even draw any oh so tasty blood which says alot about his prowsess regardless of him being tired, other primarchs could have found the energy from somewhere, russ fights his way across all of tizca and still finds the energy to fight a well rested magnus.

angron never does any primarch fighting and his being a gladiator fighting lesser oponents isnt impressive whatsoever, the lion fought the beasts of caliban for crying out loud.

and im so glad the curze lovers have hushed he makes less sense than angron and fulgrim IMO.

and the SW are not lame, has anybody read legion more than once btw? lol hard work.

the rout wrote: russ though at the end of the day is still a primarch killer.

Being as he never killed a single Primarch, that statement is false.

Fulgrim is a Primarch killer

Guilliman is a Primarch killer

Horus is a Primarch killer

The Emperor is a Primarch killer

M'Shen is even a Primarch killer

Those statements are true.

Russ is at best a Primarch Back Breaker.

I think the rout was not referring to the actual achievements of russ, but rather at his reputation, or what he was created for. According to the fluff, he was supposed to fell down renegade primarchs, which is why some of us refer to him as primarch killer. However, it is true that he did not really prove anything during the HH.

Well, I don't think anyone would have any better footing than another to point out 'just one' Primarch. However, I think you could make a top 4/5 and say 'One of these guys, depending on the author/book'. I think we also have to quantify 'Before they turned to Chaos" as a Chaos infused Primarch, such as Fulgrim, is obviously a bit better than his formal self. So...


Sang: He killed the Lord of BloodThirsters after fighting in the Siege of Terra. Other Primarchs noted his nobility/martial ability and even Horus state he was most like their father (My personal favorite). Precognition also tends to help in a fight....

Angron: Corax noted in a BL novel that Angron would likely kill him. He stated only Sang. or Russ would be able to stand up to him.

Russ: Can psychic scream, armor deflects psychic energy and already has been proven to kill one Primarch. Noted as 'being born for the assassin' role.



My pick is Sang.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NagothDaCleaver wrote:
M'Shen is even a Primarch killer

To be fair, Night Haunter let her kill him. A normal Night Lord (Well, kind of normal) was able to kill her.

the rout wrote:
sanguinius is impressive but he does get completely and totally owned. he doesnt even draw any oh so tasty blood which says alot about his prowsess regardless of him being tired, other primarchs could have found the energy from somewhere, russ fights his way across all of tizca and still finds the energy to fight a well rested magnus.

actually, Sanguinius tore out Horus's throat while impaled on his lightning claw

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

the rout wrote:
sanguinius is impressive but he does get completely and totally owned. he doesnt even draw any oh so tasty blood which says alot about his prowsess regardless of him being tired, other primarchs could have found the energy from somewhere, russ fights his way across all of tizca and still finds the energy to fight a well rested magnus.

actually, Sanguinius tore out Horus's throat while impaled on his lightning claw

I read that Sanguinius was only able to take a tiny chunk out Horus' armor but that tiny hole was enough for the Emperor to exploit. Else, the Emperor's psychic blast might've not reached Horus. So yeah, Sanguinius made sure that mankind prevailed. There's a reason why they have a celebration day in his name and not because he was a wuss.

What the hell was Horus's armour made of?

purplefood wrote:What the hell was Horus's armour made of?

Good question. I don't think it was ever addressed in the fluff. In the few artworks showing Horus, he seems to be encased in a heavily ornate termy suit. Maybe this suit was a gift of the Ruinous Powers and that it was made of a daemonic metal? For instance, the fists of Ultramar were once Chaos artifacts and in 10 000 years, the ultra's artificers have not even been able to analyse their composition because they can't even cut a tiny fragment out of the gloves. I guess Horus' armor is similar.

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

the rout wrote:
sanguinius is impressive but he does get completely and totally owned. he doesnt even draw any oh so tasty blood which says alot about his prowsess regardless of him being tired, other primarchs could have found the energy from somewhere, russ fights his way across all of tizca and still finds the energy to fight a well rested magnus.

actually, Sanguinius tore out Horus's throat while impaled on his lightning claw

Ah the old fluff version

The Death of Sanguinus

As he flew he spotted a damaged link of armour on the Warmaster's neck, and
Sanguinius stabbed out with all his remaining strength. His blade lodged at once in the Warmaster's armour.
Horus screamed more with anger than with pain, and reached out to strike the winged Primarch. Steel talons
dripping with plasmic energy closed upon the winged Angel of Baal.
According to some versions of the tale it was this wound that Sanguinius struck which opened a chink
through the armour of Horus, enabling the Emperor to slay his enemy.
2nd edition Wargear

I guess it's not be updated so is still the current version of what happened.

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Angron: Corax noted in a BL novel that Angron would likely kill him. He stated only Sang. or Russ would be able to stand up to him.

What book was this? I would love to read it. Angron will always top my list of BAMFs

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Russ: Can psychic scream, armor deflects psychic energy and already has been proven to kill one Primarch.

Again I have to point out that Russ never killed any Primarch, whether or not he was designed for it... Magnus is still a threat to the Imperium.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

NagothDaCleaver wrote:

M'Shen is even a Primarch killer

To be fair, Night Haunter let her kill him. A normal Night Lord (Well, kind of normal) was able to kill her.

Yes I realize this, however i was listing people who killed Primarchs...not the whys and hows.

It was the audio book Raven's Flight, definitely worth a listen....Gav writes pretty good audio.

The only thing that kept Russ from finishing Magnus was his deal with Tzeentch. Magnus was finished though (Which he knew would happen...it was meant to show his last heroic sacrifice for his sons).

You can't list M'Shen in the same breath as Russ or the others...because they actually fought Primarch v. Primarch with each bent on destroying the other. Night Haunter didn't fight, it was suicide for vindication essentially (He even states as much).

Audio Book?!?!
Gav Thorpe!?!?!

2 strikes against it... But I'll give it a shot

As for everything else, i was only speaking in facts, not intentions. Primarchs Russ killed = 0, Primarchs M'Shen Killed = 1
But I digress... I'll give up on any further attempts to state this fact, that's not entirely what this thread is about.

My Top 5 would be
1. Angron
2. Leman Russ
3. Magnus the Red
4. Sangunius
5. Fulgrim

Honerable Mention are Lion EL' Johnson, Corax, Night Haunter, and Vulkan

This is not in ANY way my list of favorites, because Leman Russ would be number one, this my list of top five badasses in a one on one fight.
While Magnus is no physical badass, he would psychically burn to cinders most Primarchs who stepped to him.

While Magnus is no physical badass, he would psychically burn to cinders most Primarchs who stepped to him.

I'm not sure that I agree with this statement. We don't really have any evidence that Magnus' psychic abilities were that useful in a Primarch v. Primarch situation. It's possible, though by no means certain, that he could have destroyed Russ' fleet while it was in the warp. However, when it came down to a straight up fight he wasn't able to simply burn Russ to ash (awesome though that would have been). Of course you could argue that Russ had some sort of anti-psychic armor but it seems reasonable to me that if Russ has anti-psychic wards than so might other Primarchs.

Has anyone considered the Khan as a potential heavyweight in this hypothetical competition? I left him out of my top five but I've been thinking about it and it seems like he has some potential. I'm still pulling for Fulgrim as #1 overall but I can accept the argument put forward that a possessed Primarch doesn't count. I will say that I'm not certain that Fulgrim's possession made him any more powerful though, at least not at first. When he ascended to deamonhood then sure but before that I don't know.

NagothDaCleaver wrote:Audio Book?!?!
Gav Thorpe!?!?!

2 strikes against it... But I'll give it a shot

As for everything else, i was only speaking in facts, not intentions. Primarchs Russ killed = 0, Primarchs M'Shen Killed = 1
But I digress... I'll give up on any further attempts to state this fact, that's not entirely what this thread is about.

My Top 5 would be
1. Angron
2. Leman Russ Lion El'Jonson
3. Magnus the Red
4. Sangunius
5. Fulgrim

Honerable Mention are Corax, Night Haunter, and Vulkan

This is not in ANY way my list of favorites, because Leman Russ would be number one, this my list of top five badasses in a one on one fight.
While Magnus is no physical badass, he would psychically burn to cinders most Primarchs who stepped to him.

Fixed that for you

It is emphatically stated in the fluff, Lion El'jonson IS Russ's Eqaul, you dont have to like it, call it fanboyism all you like, still a fact

andain841 wrote: Of course you could argue that Russ had some sort of anti-psychic armor but it seems reasonable to me that if Russ has anti-psychic wards than so might other Primarchs.

Yes, Russ did have anti psychic armor. And I've never read about any other Primarch that did.
Of course it could have been in something i've never read.

The lion would win hands down.

why HES A COWARD he would wait till theres only one chap left whos as near as dead then pop him off lol