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Angron, probably; people keep forgetting he was a gladiator slave. Fighting was all he learned to do. No, he wouldn't have faced any primach level opponents but he would have faced plenty who used the same techniques as his brothers (possible exception of high level psykic powers) and would know how to counter them.

I've said it before, I'll say it again... The pit fighting argument in favor of Angron tends to actually make him look bad, considering he was first found surrounded by the broken bodies of an Eldar force before he was sold into slavery...

Look bad in what sense? Bad as in evil or bad as in incompetent?

lol so many of these on the net.

the answer in a nutshell is russ, since prospero burns its cannon.

the other legions are constantly going on about how crazy tough the wolves are (little comments appear in the first three books) and now theyre officially the emperors exectioners.

He made russ and his wolves for one purpose.... to commit brothercide.

I mean he breaks magnus for gods sake. he was chaoses first choice, not horus and russ dropped him like a steaming terd.

Even horus admits they were his noly military threat, not combat threat MILITARY suggesting russ was not only an uber close quarter killy machine but also a damn good leader.

lol this is why i laugh at calgar being known as the ultimate tactical genius.

Grimnar. 13th black crusade.... Need i say more?

and hes not half as badass or generally geekgasmic as russ.

Im a bit rambly now so ill shut up..... damn smurfrage.

the rout wrote:lol so many of these on the net.

the answer in a nutshell is russ, since prospero burns its cannon.

the other legions are constantly going on about how crazy tough the wolves are (little comments appear in the first three books) and now theyre officially the emperors exectioners.

He made russ and his wolves for one purpose.... to commit brothercide.

I mean he breaks magnus for gods sake. he was chaoses first choice, not horus and russ dropped him like a steaming terd.

Even horus admits they were his noly military threat, not combat threat MILITARY suggesting russ was not only an uber close quarter killy machine but also a damn good leader.

lol this is why i laugh at calgar being known as the ultimate tactical genius.

Grimnar. 13th black crusade.... Need i say more?

and hes not half as badass or generally geekgasmic as russ.

Im a bit rambly now so ill shut up..... damn smurfrage.

First, the title of ultimate tactical genius belongs to noone but CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!

Second, Angron would wreck Russ one-on-one. Angron was not just a berzerker (ruthless and unrelenting) but he was also tireless, incredibly strong (he is, physically, the strongest Primarch), and an un-paralelled master of martial combat. Being a good tactician isn't going to help when your opponent is flailing a giant chainaxe at you with such force, precision, and finesse as to out-muscle, out-perform, and overall out-class you.

Angron was a CC monster, plain and simple. All he knew was killing; he knew how to do it and he was damn good at it. Pre-daemon or post-daemon, Russ would end up a visceral mess on Angron's armor.

Sanguinus or Angron

Sanguinus have the advantage of well FLIGHT, also breaking blood thirster on his knee, his descedants somehow kills gakload of Orks without armor or weapon, also with a Protector that can threw a khornate daemon from the Sky

Angron has.... Khornate Berserker he is also primarily a fighter first and leader second

the rout wrote:lol so many of these on the net.

the answer in a nutshell is russ, since prospero burns its cannon.

the other legions are constantly going on about how crazy tough the wolves are (little comments appear in the first three books) and now theyre officially the emperors exectioners.

He made russ and his wolves for one purpose.... to commit brothercide.

I mean he breaks magnus for gods sake. he was chaoses first choice, not horus and russ dropped him like a steaming terd.

Even horus admits they were his noly military threat, not combat threat MILITARY suggesting russ was not only an uber close quarter killy machine but also a damn good leader.

lol this is why i laugh at calgar being known as the ultimate tactical genius.

Grimnar. 13th black crusade.... Need i say more?

and hes not half as badass or generally geekgasmic as russ.

Im a bit rambly now so ill shut up..... damn smurfrage.

You're getting a bit off-subject. We're not talking about the skills of their legion or about their strategic skills. We're talking about a fight between pre-heresy primarchs. Who would win if the primarchs started a "friendly" dueling competition?
I would put my money on Angron or Russ. Horus would not be far behind.

Angron is obviously scary when it comes to fighting. I imagine he freaked out even his brothers. He is incredibly skilled in combat and the strongest of the 18 primarchs. Russ'strength is probably not far behind. In Propero Burns, we see Russ saying a joke and slapping the back of Valdor. He slaps Valdor's back so hard that he leaves a dent in Valdor's ceramite armor.

Vulkan and Ferrus are also said to be strong, but they seem to lack combat prowess. Other primarchs like sanguignius, corax and fulgrim seem to have the combat prowess but are not known for their strength.

Sanguinius iis better than Angron because although he has a huge rage to call on he never lets it control him, Angron can be manipulated his greatest asset could be his biggest weakness.

Also everyone writes the angel off cos Horus butchered him, what no one takes into account are Horus' deamon-loving powers and the fact that Sanguinius had been fighting a war non stop for the month or so the siege of terra was going on, including snapping Kha Banda's spine and holding the Eternity gate solo for a time against traitor marines and Daemons. AFAIK Horus sat safe on his battlebarge anbd did sweet fa although I imagine he threw alot of tantrums.

Sanguinius broke a bloodthirsters neck....that's got to make him pretty strong, tbh...

I see quite a few saying Russ or Angron. (When reading my opinions please keep in mind that I am under the assumption that all the primarchs were just about even. Each could beat the others in their own ways. Perturabo, Alpharius Omegon, and Konrad Curze maybe couldn't best the other primarchs in an out-right fight, but that was never their strong suit anyway. Each had their own style, and could best any challenger if given the right situation)

As for Russ: He was extremely strong, brutish, and very clever. The mindset of the wolves he loved so much seemed to embody how he saw battle. However, the more cunning primarchs could over-come him by using his ferocity and moodiness (for lack of a better word; I mean let's face it, the man wore his emotions on his sleeve) against him. Magnus did this a bit when stopping the Space Wolves from ransacking that library on one of the worlds they were attacking prior to there being any more than tension between the two legions. By that I mean that he was able to read Russ's reactions and intentions so well. That would be Russ's weakness.

As for Angron: Take what I said about Russ and move it to the extreme. Angron was pure fury. One emotion, one reaction. While there is no doubt he is ferocious, he is still little more than an Ogre. His style would be no more than hit you as hard as possible (yes he would have wonderful form, he is a primarch after all), but in the end if you could weather his blows it would be easy to manipulate the fight. That would be his weakness.

Both of these primarch's weaknesses could be taken advantage of in a multitude of ways according to which primarch they were fighting. In the end, I think it would depend more on the situation and the matching of the fight (as in who versus who) in that particular setting under that particular set of circumstances that would determine the outcome more than the set statistics of each primarch. That is to say, any primarch could beat any primarch. And if one were to lose in a bout the first time, I don't believe that would mean that the winner is stronger, just that he won that bout. The rematch would be just as likely to go the other way.

-Cypher- wrote:
As for Angron: Take what I said about Russ and move it to the extreme. Angron was pure fury. One emotion, one reaction. While there is no doubt he is ferocious, he is still little more than an Ogre. His style would be no more than hit you as hard as possible (yes he would have wonderful form, he is a primarch after all), but in the end if you could weather his blows it would be easy to manipulate the fight. That would be his weakness.

Angron was not just a brute, he was also a master of martial combat. He knew how to fight, he didn't just flail his weapon around as hard as possible. His wonderful form would far outclass the other Primarchs. His downfall was, as you said, the lack of being able to express an emotion other than pure fury. However, in combat he was unmatchable.

Not to mention, considering he was a berzerking, incredibly powerful, and unrelenting monster in combat, I highly doubt you could "weather his blows".

If he ever pulled out the stops, I think Magnus could have flash fried any of the other Primarchs.

Dorn is described as being able to move incredibly fast, in Eisenstein.

Let us not forget that it has be said that Fulgrim had fought with Ferrus Manus twice. Beat him both times. Ferrus on the first occasion melted Fulgrim's sword, to which Fulgrim replied by taking Ferrus hammer from him and beating him about the head an shoulders with it. On that note, there is something to be said about a being that can take a blow to the face from a hammer that "could level a mountain in a single blow" and only get knocked out. On the 2nd occasion Fulgrim beat him and then the daemon within forced his hand to the killing blow. Then took over his mind to mess with him for the rest of forever.

Aside from that he did pull the Soul stone out of a Wraithlord's head and then proceeded to beat the Avatar of Khaine to death with his bare hands. So I think he is both physically intense and skilled in martial combat.

Didn't Fulgrim got his power during the second fight?
as he in intakes so many performance enhancing drugs then beat Ferrus?

the rout wrote:lol so many of these on the net.

the answer in a nutshell is russ, since prospero burns its cannon.

.

I cannot remeber where but i remeber reading a story where the DA andd SW fell out (Pre-heresy me thinks) while both Primarchs were present, something over who was first to take a city and which method.
It basically ended with the Lion and Russ coming to blows for a whole day only at the end of it for them to dissentangle, Russ started to laugh at themselves only for the lion to KO the wolf with one punch

Darth Bob wrote:
Not to mention, considering he was a berzerking, incredibly powerful, and unrelenting monster in combat, I highly doubt you could "weather his blows".

Let us not forget though that he would be facing another primarch. If anyone was made to withstand tremendous damage in lightening-fast duels whilst remaining tactically piqued, wouldn't it be a primarch?

I'm just pointing out that once Angron fell into his fury it wouldn't be beyond possibility to maneuver him in such a way as to put him at a disadvantage by using the dueling environment. Perhaps even luring him into a trap or some-such.

Retrias wrote:Didn't Fulgrim got his power during the second fight?
as he in intakes so many performance enhancing drugs then beat Ferrus?

Not that i could recall, so i looked. It says that Fulgrim just stands around and when Ferrus gets there they talk for a second then battle to the death. It does how ever mention that after Fulgrim is wounded he finds a clarity of sorts and loses his willingness to kill his brother and the daemon sort of forces him to defend himself by drawing the silver blade, after which he is re-energized and defeats Ferrus. After looking over the 2nd battle again I belive it doesn't really apply to the actual skill of either Ferrus or Fulgrim simply because they are both under extreme duress at the time of the fight.

yep Hlaine alot of people seem to completely disregard the Lion in matchups like this.

FACT: Lion and Russ were Eqaul on combat power in almost every way, Lion was a little faster, Russ a little stronger.
FICTION: Lion 1 punched Russ and knocked him out. This was after a whole day and night of fighting, im knackered after 20 mins running nevermind fighting for hours.

The combat power levels are pretty cut and dry i think, as it is stated several times Horus was the the best... at everything, so he is number 1.
The rest are in this group

1st Horus, Sanguinius
2nd Lion, Corax, Russ, Angron.
3rd: Night Haunter, Gulliman, etc.
4th: Alpharius and omegon

Am i the only one who thinks that daemonic ascension doesn't necessarily make a primarch stronger ?, I mean a few things to remember isnt there that mumbo jumbo about daemon true names like if you know there name you can either banish them instantly to the warp or weaken them greatly ?. Secondly they'd be highly susceptible to anti daemon weaponry i.e http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Psycannon, lastly there was some kind of a trade off whilst in daemon form they might be stronger and larger (Angron) or be more agile (Fulgrim and his four arms), this would immediately be countered by physical laws of transmution i.e Angrons now massive and beastly but hes also a lot slower and a much larger target, Fulgrims a lot more agile and has wings but his spindly limbs and wings are weaker and easier to tangle with each other.
Of course theyd be infused with a strength that only a warp entity could have but for a superhuman being like a primarch that also has genius level intellect and millenia of warfare experience this wouldnt be a gamebreaker, a loyalist primarch would simply capitalize on the weaknesses of there new flaws, itd still be an incredibly close fight to close for me to call but I still think that a loyalist primach could take a daemon one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah as for my personal bias on the winner of this primarch ffa itd either be Sanguinius or Curze.

Sanguinius because not only did he have crazy psychic powers, he could see the future, had strength and bloodlust enough to attract the eyes of Khorne, not to mention he could fly ! whilst in his artificed armor making him the most mobile primarch whilst in combat at least. But his greatest power in my mind would be his humanity he knew his limits both physically and emotionally, he wouldn't go into a berserker rage and get cut down or make a risky gamble he knew he likely wouldnt win.

Curze for exactly the opposite reason he was literally a nightmare made manifest, he was almost ethereal and his thoughts and combat tactics were there impossible to understand. The whole hiding in the shadows and striking from them would allow him to possibly get a lethal strike on another primarch without them even realizing, and whilst the sheer terror that exudes from him like an aura couldn't break the morale of a primarch itd at least be unsettling and uncomfortable (Like when Dorn is noticeably shaken when recalling the time Curze nearly beat him to death).
Lastly this might sound like a contradiction but in this case his inhumanity, with Curze there would be no hesitation no respite, he wouldnt waste time on non lethal injuries of crippling blows, if there was an opening hed go for the kill shot.

The best close combat fighters were surely Angron, Russ, Sanguinius (although I see him as less dangerous than the other three in closed quarters, only in open spaces he'd excell) and Night Haunter. They were beasts in many ways and fought with a strength and anger the more disciplined primarchs couldn't draw from. Tactics won't help you too much in CC.

After those, I'd say Horus, Khan, Lion, Mortarion and Fulgrim (who might be even better considering how many he hurt/killed) came.

Tactics-wise, I'm sure a few primarchs were way better than my top picks, Horus and Guilliman obviously being two of them.

From a distance I think Magnus would hand down be the deadliest. Magic and stuff...

But since the various books give us very different views and stories, I guess a true chart can't really be made.

In a Battle Royale my money would be on Night Haunter as he fights like a monster and is very cunning. Angron would surely kill the most but Curze would wait for his chance and then strike at angron. Another possible winner is Magnus cause he could easily just disappear and come back when he feels like it. Old cheater.

Mit Gas wrote:The best close combat fighters were surely Angron, Russ, Sanguinius (although I see him as less dangerous than the other three in closed quarters, only in open spaces he'd excell) and Night Haunter. They were beasts in many ways and fought with a strength and anger the more disciplined primarchs couldn't draw from. Tactics won't help you too much in CC.

After those, I'd say Horus, Khan, Lion, Mortarion and Fulgrim (who might be even better considering how many he hurt/killed) came.

Tactics-wise, I'm sure a few primarchs were way better than my top picks, Horus and Guilliman obviously being two of them.

From a distance I think Magnus would hand down be the deadliest. Magic and stuff...

But since the various books give us very different views and stories, I guess a true chart can't really be made.

In a Battle Royale my money would be on Night Haunter as he fights like a monster and is very cunning. Angron would surely kill the most but Curze would wait for his chance and then strike at angron. Another possible winner is Magnus cause he could easily just disappear and come back when he feels like it. Old cheater.

cool, cept 1 thing.

LION=RUSS on combat power, if i have to say it a million times i will lol, Any list that has Russ on it MUST have The Lion on the same level (combat wise)

Ok maybe 2 things.
Strategy=Big picture, Think Epic 40k
Tactics=Little picture, Think standard 40k
Strategy: Gulliman, as stated in fluff, no one could pencil push as well as him.
Tactics: Lion El'Johnson, as stated in fluff, he nearly conquered as many worlds as Horus, in almost half the time.
Lion and Russ were nearly the best primarchs (all round) with ony Sanguinius and Horus infront.

Russ was created to kill his brothers period. The Lion wasnt equal to him he sucker punched him after russ disengaged having had his hands around emo el johnsons thrpat about to kill him. as for angron he was a moron, he was lobotomised for gods sake, hes a one string guitar who just cant adapt like his brothers. Physically i think the primarchs were very similar in terms of strength and resillience but russ was a freakin werewolf. he had everything the other rpimarchs had plus a dash of lykan plus having grown up fighting kraken and other such nasties. he nearly beats the emperor in cqc and horus fears him. if rumors are to be believed he killed one of the missing primarchs and the super psyker.

russ would win because thats what the emperor made him for there is no other outcome.

oh and demonism sucks anyway. a normal marine can become a demon prince and they aint so tough plus the gods wouldnt want to give them too much power because theyd be a threat to them like the emperor was.

in my opinion the top trumps looks like this

Russ (made to kill primarchs)
Horus (generally badass)
Magnus (second in psychic might only to the emperor)
Sanguinius ( could see the future and fly)
The Lion (kept up with primarch killer 4 days and is a genius)
Angron (tough but comparitively stupid)

and then everyone else with Gulliman the feeble and Alpha and Omega at the bottom.

BTW Gulliman had the biggest legion and still had less victories than horus, russ, the lion, and sanguinius so how is this guy a tactical genius? he was a douche who even with the biggest army still couldnt keep up with his brother, that makes him weak and stupid.

Formosa wrote:

Mit Gas wrote:The best close combat fighters were surely Angron, Russ, Sanguinius (although I see him as less dangerous than the other three in closed quarters, only in open spaces he'd excell) and Night Haunter. They were beasts in many ways and fought with a strength and anger the more disciplined primarchs couldn't draw from. Tactics won't help you too much in CC.

After those, I'd say Horus, Khan, Lion, Mortarion and Fulgrim (who might be even better considering how many he hurt/killed) came.

Tactics-wise, I'm sure a few primarchs were way better than my top picks, Horus and Guilliman obviously being two of them.

From a distance I think Magnus would hand down be the deadliest. Magic and stuff...

But since the various books give us very different views and stories, I guess a true chart can't really be made.

In a Battle Royale my money would be on Night Haunter as he fights like a monster and is very cunning. Angron would surely kill the most but Curze would wait for his chance and then strike at angron. Another possible winner is Magnus cause he could easily just disappear and come back when he feels like it. Old cheater.

cool, cept 1 thing.

LION=RUSS on combat power, if i have to say it a million times i will lol, Any list that has Russ on it MUST have The Lion on the same level (combat wise)

Ok maybe 2 things.
Strategy=Big picture, Think Epic 40k
Tactics=Little picture, Think standard 40k
Strategy: Gulliman, as stated in fluff, no one could pencil push as well as him.
Tactics: Lion El'Johnson, as stated in fluff, he nearly conquered as many worlds as Horus, in almost half the time.
Lion and Russ were nearly the best primarchs (all round) with ony Sanguinius and Horus infront.

Yeah, the whole argument with Lion and Russ being so uber is only because of lame fanboys who need to make their Space Puppies and Emo Angels sound cool, espeiclaly Emo Angels cause it's clear that the pansy with lame name syndrome (Lion El Johnson? Oh boy, lamest primarch name ever) is nowhere near the best physical fighter. They're not so damn great but I believe Russ would still be high up the chain as he's a great fighter in many ways. I'd bet 10 bucks that Angron would easily rip those two apart though and could easily see Night Haunter ambush them and then rip them apart. Leman was maybe born to kill his brothers and has the stuff to do it but the circumstances turned Angron into a beast and I think the uber-wolf is a bit less deadly than the raging psychopath that is Angron who's constantly pissed off. And neither tactics nor strategy will help you very much in a small room with Angron in it, so the bonuses the other primarchs would have are kinda non-existant even if he was so much dumber like you all claim. Angron was surely not the smartest but there's a difference between a psychopath and a moron.

As for best primarchs regarding all aspects... impossible to say that Lion ranks up there. Not enough suggests it, only DA fanboyism. I'd say Horus and Sanguinius, although I think Blood Angels and Sang are damn lame, kinda like Horus is damn lame.

So I'll suggest the situations where each one would be the best and hope to see you spout as much hate and vitriol as me when you pick your favorites.

You in a forest or a deserted city getting ambushed - Night Haunter

You in a small room with 1 exit - Angron

You a few hundred meters away from the primarch - Magnus

You fighting a huge army with yours - Guilliman, Horus (maybe El Johnson)

Best picks in balanced battle situations - Russ, Horus, Sanguinius

Oh and you anywhere - The Emperor (one of the few loyalists that I like next to poor Dorn and even porrer Ferrus Manus)

pretty much all the primarchs are equal it just depends on circumstances and terrain even on luck they are all good at serperate things but all know each other weaknesses its = on all levels

horus only mashed up horus because he had the power of 4 chaos gods and the articfacts to back up while sanguinis only had the power and equipment of his chapter

and the whole Russ vs the lion debate is 100% true they are both equal with speed/ strength slightly different and the lion won after russ stopped and laughed at the whole 24 hours fighting thing at that point the lion 1 punched him while he let his guard down xD

i dont know why were still debating this lol prospero burns has said in explicit terms that russ is the primarch executioner and horus himself admits to fearing him and his legion.

i think post chaos horus would give russ a good kickin but where the hell is everyone getting there angron sources from?

hes just a nut job with a couple of big probably quite slow axes, mortarion would just shoot angron in the face and that would be that and mortarions laaaaaame.

pre chaos russ owns all of them simply by being made better, post chaos and say hes second to horus.

lol i dont even know why im writing this coz nobody will listen but yeh RUSS RULES And everyone who says otherwise is arguin against the same factual cannon that there trying to base their arguement on.

the rout wrote:BTW Gulliman had the biggest legion and still had less victories than horus, russ, the lion, and sanguinius so how is this guy a tactical genius? he was a douche who even with the biggest army still couldnt keep up with his brother, that makes him weak and stupid.

Hey, calm down on the Smurf-bashing. Stop saying that Guilliman was lame just because most people like him and that it makes you cool to say something different. Guilliman was definitely not the best primarch, but he was still admirable in many ways. He was not the best warrior, the engineer or the best tactician, but he was pretty much balanced in everything. He deserves some respect.
And as far as I know, I never read anywhere that Sanguignius, Russ and the Lion had conquered more worlds than the big blue guy. I always read that he was second only to Horus in terms of the number of worlds conquered. But, fair enough, he had a bigger legion.

Back on topic, since we're talking about a CC situation, I think Angron wins. Simply because he is described as being a beast in CC. Some primarchs would certainly put up a great resistance (Russ the primarch killer, Horus the badass, sanguinius the flyboy...), but as Mit Gas said, in a small room with one exit, Angron is going to smash you down with your own spine.

Emperor could take them all, and he's not as strong or martial as any of the primarchs. The only power he has is his psychic power, but that makes him more powerful than any of his sons.

Magnus was to be his successor, and was the only one who could even understand the power of the warp.

No question that Magnus would obliterate any of his brothers if he so desired. Heck, look at the end of A Thousand Sons, the author realized how powerful Magnus is in the fluff and made him nearly throw himself at Russ' feet.

If Magnus and the Thousand Sons had fought the evil space puppies with everything they had, Russ would still be floating in the warp, or a demon turd.

if magnus could have done that so easily why would the emperor send him? o die? dont be silly. and if angron had russ in a little room with one eit russ would shoot at his face, angron would block with his axes, russ would kick him out the door and use the space to make angron look as stupid as he is. plus their friggin CHAINaxes, lol dont even take invuns from em, frost blades? well thats a different story.

oh and guilliman hating isnt to be cool its because hes not, hes bland, without personality, and has the audacity to think he knows whats best for the other legions. he dies by fulgrims blade 2... i rest my case.

the rout wrote:if magnus could have done that so easily why would the emperor send him? o die? dont be silly.

Well, first of all, Horus is the one who sent Russ (of the notorious mutation-infected legion) to kill Magnus. So it is possible that the intent was to kill, delay, or further corrupt Russ. However, Horus probably didn't realize that Russ was complacent in the Emperor's betrayal of the Primarchs.

Second, read "A Thousand Sons." After opening his eye to the warp, Magnus is very aware of what transpires there (having allied himself to the same powers that the Emperor embraced and betrayed). Magnus sees the ships of Russ approaching Prospero, and could have diverted them with a thought. But because he had become emo, he let the ships come and attack his home.

Finally, eventually Magnus realized he wasn't the Emperor's slave (unlike Russ and the 'loyalists') and decided to shake off his Stockholm Syndrome and live.

Magnus is head and shoulders (literally as well as figuratively) above his brother Primarchs.