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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

Wrexasaur wrote:You need 100 wounds to break a 3+ RR, as the odds are 99/100 to save. It seems a whole lot more likely than it actually is.

What?

3 squads = 24 lasguns = 72 shots (FRF) = 36 hits = 6 wounds = 2 failed 3+ saves. If he's rerolling (which he can't, in this case), then you're looking at slightly less than 1 per turn (and we're not even counting the 9th guy who could have a plasma gun or something) . That's still 1 per turn. In this specific case (where he doesn't get rerolls) if you take 2 wounds off with other stuff, the last two will fall to a single volley of lasgun fire.

Hardly the 99/100, whatever that means.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/07/14 21:24:25


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Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

As far as I know, the OP is now asking for advice concerning 1500 point games, not 500 point games. I am not going to start a massive 5-page discussion over something that you agreed with me on earlier in the thread. Those lasguns work against Guardians quite well, and both the Avatar and Guardians will be in range.

My numbers are a bit off, it is more like 9/10, or 90%, not 99/100. My bad.

Point still stands, just test those lasguns against Guardians instead, then weigh which unit needs to die first... Half of what the Avatar does is soak up firepower, while guardians are not good at that at all.

72 shots/ 36 hits/ 18 wounds... 5+ armor/cover (12 wounds) 4+ cover (9 wounds). That is one dead Guardian squad. Assuming the Avatar made it across the board, there is no presumption that he has taken any wounds by this point, and if he has you've likely used all of your AT to do so. If there are WL in the list and you are firing AP3 weaponry the avatar, the one with an invulnerable save, I would be surprised if your army weren't flamed to death in return. WL are a very serious threat to cover-bound squads, and an Avatar is a minimal threat. By shooting the Avatar, you're allowing it to perform to the best of it's abilities, instead of finding a more effective way of countering it when the time comes.

The Avatar is a threat for around one turn of the game, and even in that case, the best targets are tanks and heavy infantry, not super cheap light infantry.

We will get along at some point Ailaros, I promise you that.

I feel like illustrating this point might be worthwhile, perhaps I will put together an example showing why 3 squads of cover bound infantry will have a very hard time getting rapid fire shots onto one large based model. 20-25% of the board is terrain, and in most instances less than half of that is actually area terrain. Because of this your squads are not going to be clumped into one piece of area terrain, they're very likely to be spread out across the long edge of the board, or stuck into multi-leveled buildings.

Like I said, maybe I will have to put together a few diagrams explaining the geometry behind this. A 12" range is pitiful, and it only becomes worse when you are trying to target a single model with those shots. It will be hilarious when shots are declared from 3 squads (HUZZAH!), and you can barely get half of those guns into range. Better yet, you're playing against a very experienced opponent, and they have mastered the art of deceptive ranges (OH NO!).

"That isn't 12", it's 12.25, which happens to be all that is needed to cut your shots in half."

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/07/14 21:50:01



 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

Wrexasaur wrote:As far as I know, the OP is now asking for advice concerning 1500 point games, not 500 point games.

Ah, thus the confusion. If you will notice, the title of the thread is "how can you beat an avatar with ig in a 500pts game?"

Wrexasaur wrote:We will get along at some point Ailaros, I promise you that.

How about right now? I agree that in a 1500 point game, relying only on lasguns as the prime way to tackle an avatar is silly. Taking off the last wound in a pinch? Sure! But otherwise, yeah, lasgunners usually have something better to do.

Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

Ailaros wrote:
Wrexasaur wrote:As far as I know, the OP is now asking for advice concerning 1500 point games, not 500 point games.

Ah, thus the confusion. If you will notice, the title of the thread is "how can you beat an avatar with ig in a 500pts game?"


Yeah, it was a pretty obscure situation to begin with. I don't feel that using Avatars in 500 point lists is common at all.

Wrexasaur wrote:We will get along at some point Ailaros, I promise you that.

How about right now? I agree that in a 1500 point game, relying only on lasguns as the prime way to tackle an avatar is silly. Taking off the last wound in a pinch? Sure! But otherwise, yeah, lasgunners usually have something better to do.


If all you have to shoot at is the Avatar, then plink away at the bastard! I don't think that is very likely, or very possible, but if the guns aren't shooting at anything else then it makes a great deal of sense.

Anyway, WE AGREE! This one will go down in the history books.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/07/14 22:08:53



 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought






The OP is talking about 500 point games not 1500, he specifically mentioned the army consists of nothing but an avatar and 4 guardian squads with shuirken cannons. The list had an avatar that is not supported by a farseer, and completely lacked a farseer.

That being said an avatar that is not supported by a farseer with fortune is half of an avatar. With fortune an avatar's chance of passing an invo increases from 50% to 75%, and the chances of passing a regular armor save goes from 66% to 88%. It's not even worth it for IG to shoot at the avatar while the farseer i still alive.

The worst possible thing IG can do to eldar is PBS their leadership down to 2 after inflicting 25% casualties. 2 things can stop PBS a farseer with runes of warding, and the avatar making guardians fearless. In larger games the avatar is just not worth it's points against IG. Because the avatar has a fearless bubble all it's really going to do is force large amounts of guardians to stick close to the avatar, potentially out of cover, with the outcome being the guardians are just turned into large pie plate fodder. The farseers are the real threat. Kill the farseer 1st and the PBS are free to use their psychic powers on 2 dice again, and the Avatar no longer has fortune.

Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.


 
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine





schadenfreude wrote:The OP is talking about 500 point games not 1500, he specifically mentioned the army consists of nothing but an avatar and 4 guardian squads with shuirken cannons. The list had an avatar that is not supported by a farseer, and completely lacked a farseer.


What?...



You'll see...
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

sluggaslugga wrote:oh by the way the game was cancelled :( cause he/it couldnt make it (everybody calls him a slaanesh spawn (dunno why)) so we decided to take a 1500 pts game next saturday
are devildogs good? since they have template weapons not flamers but weapons that shoot acid that always wounds on a 2+ (strengh 1 though)


Anyway... not that it matters what the OP says in his own thread or anything.


 
   
 
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