Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If IG goes 1st 5 TL AC from a HWS and platoon under the bring it down order +5 AC from the CCS, 2 PCS, and 2nd platoon is enough to bring the avatar down in 1 round of shooting.

5 TL AC = 7,5 hits, 4+ish wounds, 1,5 unsaved
5 AC = 5 hits, 3,2ish wounds, 1 unsaved

You will hurt him quite badly, but will probably not take him down in one turn. If the eldar player really doesn't have a fortuneseer, he would be dead by turn 2 though (turn 3 if there is any LOS blocking terrain like it should be)

If the eldarplayer has a fortuneseer, this becomes much much harder.

put a marbo in his back

No, there is no point in doing this unless your opponent is a very poor player. Marbo is zero threat to his avatar, and can be taken down by his other shooting.

The difference between sticking the Avatar in a 500 point list, and a 1500 points list is huge. Massive.

Seeing as most everything necessary for a 500 point situation has been covered, I'll just add a bit to the 1500 point dilemma. Let's talk a little bit about the Avatar. It's big, it's tough, and it doesn't move fast enough. Shoot it in the face with spam, or tarpit the damn thing.

The best option to take on the avatar is cheap, fearless units. Being able to last 2-3 turns of combat is essential, actually doing damage is not all that important. Answer: Ork boys/Grots. Grots may not be fearless, and quite frankly they are not great for the task, but being led by three Orks with poisoned weapons makes them relatively nasty.

It seems like we are talking mainly about IG, so conscripts could be an option, but I am not sure how you can cope with their Ld5... wow... yeah, that could be a problem, but I assume there is some way to deal with it.

Shooting an avatar with expensive tanks seems like a waste of points to me, especially when you can tarpit an Avatar for less than 200 points, probably more like less than 150 points overall. You don't have to worry about the melta so much as the Avatar getting into assault with a tank squadron. One standard melta shot (BS 5, whatever, the bastard moves as fast as a snail) just isn't much to be worried about.

If your opponent is running a footslogging Eldar list led by an Avatar, chances are he is running a Fortune-seer along with 3 WL. Maybe 2 WL, but if they skip the Fortune-seer altogether, that list is as good as useless. Footslogging Eldar are very scared of tanks, they just don't have the capacity to take on serious Mech lists.

Blablablabla, sure you'll win a few games with Fs Eldar, but for the most part it just isn't competitive. Enjoy your games.

@ Wrexasaur

Conscirpts are, to put it bluntly, awful. As a tarpit they lack any kind of staying power and wll simply run away at the frst opportunity. The only real way to keep them around is to dedicate an HQ slot to a Lord Commisar and keep them within his Leadership bubble. This is, obviously, far from a cost-effective way of tarpitting anything, let alone an Avatar.

I would personally suggest simply using 2-3 combined PIS with a Commisar attached. Now you have 30, Ld8, Stubborn wounds that can re-roll a failed Leadership check three times (though not in the same phase due to Summary Execution). Such a squad costs 215 points (including the cost for the PCS) and due to sheer number of attacks may just throw a wound or two on the Avatar whilst they hold it up for near enough the entire game. This unit is even BETTER than a Fearless one, as they don't take additional wounds when they lose the combat.

Just my $0.02

L. Wrex

If you would like to see the Avatar disappear to the "shelf of shame" (reserved for units which just don't cut it and won't be used for a little while at least) try to do one of the following...

1) Bring it down in 1 turn. invest heaviliy on plasma or missiles or fancy tanks to do the job.
2) Bring it down with lasguns... 144 shots should kill it... on average... but you could soften it up with some missiles or similar. If you bring it down with lasguns you can take the p*ss out of the avatar whenever you see him and either a) He wont be used as much, or b) He will be more conservative, giving you and extra turn or two to pummel the rest of the army.

Psycological warfare works

@ L. Wrex

The rate which an Avatar will chew through a 30-man squad is no less than completely insubstantial.

The bottom line is that even having the chance to run away, almost defeats the purpose of a dedicated tarpit unit. Sure you'll get a few extra wounds because of fearless, but it isn't exactly the fastest way to break apart a ball of tar. Ork boys surrounding an Avatar always make me laugh a little bit, just thinking about what those Orks would be doing if they were real.

An Avatar covered in raging Orks, only slightly funnier than Grots, but grots are not fearless and they are GROTS! Maggots...

dayve110 wrote:If you would like to see the Avatar disappear to the "shelf of shame" (reserved for units which just don't cut it and won't be used for a little while at least)

LOL. Please continue, I mean...

try to do one of the following...

1) Bring it down in 1 turn. invest heaviliy on plasma or missiles or fancy tanks to do the job.
2) Bring it down with lasguns... 144 shots should kill it... on average... but you could soften it up with some missiles or similar. If you bring it down with lasguns you can take the p*ss out of the avatar whenever you see him and either a) He wont be used as much, or b) He will be more conservative, giving you and extra turn or two to pummel the rest of the army.

That sounds terribly expensive. I understand that IG are generally cheap, but 144 shots of anything costs an awful lot of points, and unfortunately enough, you're probably better off using those flashlights against things like T3 Eldar infantry... which is basically the only thing they are very good at doing any damage against.

144 shots to take down a 155 point unit at 1 ft, or the ability to split your firepower effectively against some of the most small-arms vulnerable infantry in the game.

Psycological warfare works

You mis-spelled psychological and I am not sure what you are talking about in the first place. Flashlights don't really scare anyone, but they do a pretty good job of taking down moderately costed HQ units... in numbers of 144 or more. Or not.

I was thinking abou veterans or penal legionnaires
veterans:
sgt: power Fist PPistol
3 plasma dudes
rest armed with shotguns and everyone has carapace armor

Wrexasaur wrote:The bottom line is that even having the chance to run away, almost defeats the purpose of a dedicated tarpit unit.

And this is exactly the reason why Conscripts are so terrible. If they get the charge they may *just* cause a wound to force a draw, otherwise they'll lose the combat by 1 or 2 and have to make a Leadership check on 3/4, which is close to impossible. Far better to have 30 stubborn Guardsmen with a re-roll if you want to hold something up for any significant length of time.

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:@ Wrexasaur
I would personally suggest simply using 2-3 combined PIS with a Commisar attached. Now you have 30, Ld8, Stubborn wounds that can re-roll a failed Leadership check three times (though not in the same phase due to Summary Execution)
L. Wrex

How do you do the third LD check? I know you get another from the Commissar, but don't know how you found about the third.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Ermm... wow. Fail. He won't be destroying your infantry in assault if YOU KILL HIM WITH HYDRAS.

...then you're not killing his avatar. Sort of the whole point of the thread, no?

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:
Imperial guard list 500 points

CCS
AC/GL/GL

Vets
AC/GL/GL/GL

Vets
AC/GL/GL/GL

Hydra

Hydra

Hydra

Which would get eaten.

This list only has enough firepower to take down the avatar OR the wave of guardians before they hit your lines. Either you're left with an avatar blowing up a hydra a turn with another guardian squad taking down a guard squad a turn or you're left with 4 guardian squads that sweep your infantry off the board in one go and then start laying on the cannon fire onto your hydras.

schadenfreude wrote:10 IG AC=20 AC shots, 10 of which are TL with the order bring it down.

How are you getting 10 autocannons with just two BiDs?

sluggaslugga wrote:i was thinking about ratlings (rending special rule)

all sniper rifles rend, it's just that that doesn't happen all that often, and it doesn't ignore invul saves.

Wrexasaur wrote:The bottom line is that even having the chance to run away, almost defeats the purpose of a dedicated tarpit unit.

I don't know, failing LD9 twice is pretty rare. That and you can "get back in the fight" them.

Wrexasaur wrote:That sounds terribly expensive. I understand that IG are generally cheap, but 144 shots of anything costs an awful lot of points, and unfortunately enough, you're probably better off using those flashlights against things like T3 Eldar infantry... which is basically the only thing they are very good at doing any damage against.

Taking the avatar with FRFSRF is actually withing the realm of reasonable, assuming the avatar is slightly injured first (it only takes about 12 lasgunners to put a wound on it that sticks). The problem, of course, is as you mention - that if you're close enough to shoot at the avatar, you're close enough to shoot at the guardians.

Monster Rain wrote:Plasma Veterans combined with Bring It Down, Bring it Down! Will probably do the trick...

I was thinking this. Plasma is easy to get for IG, and Bring it Down is easy enough as well. Just focus your fire for a couple turns and you should be fine

Gavo wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:@ Wrexasaur
I would personally suggest simply using 2-3 combined PIS with a Commisar attached. Now you have 30, Ld8, Stubborn wounds that can re-roll a failed Leadership check three times (though not in the same phase due to Summary Execution)
L. Wrex

How do you do the third LD check? I know you get another from the Commissar, but don't know how you found about the third.

Notice the 'not in the same phase' bit? What he's saying is that in the first round of combat, I can fail, shoot a sgt, and re-roll. Do the same in round 2, round 3, etc. And actually, he can do it even if there are no sgts left, it just goes to the model (other than the commissar) with the highest leadership (randomized if multiple with same LD). So it's more than 3 times, it's as many times as you still have models (other than the commissar) in the unit.

don_mondo wrote:

Gavo wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:@ Wrexasaur
I would personally suggest simply using 2-3 combined PIS with a Commisar attached. Now you have 30, Ld8, Stubborn wounds that can re-roll a failed Leadership check three times (though not in the same phase due to Summary Execution)
L. Wrex

How do you do the third LD check? I know you get another from the Commissar, but don't know how you found about the third.

Notice the 'not in the same phase' bit? What he's saying is that in the first round of combat, I can fail, shoot a sgt, and re-roll. Do the same in round 2, round 3, etc. And actually, he can do it even if there are no sgts left, it just goes to the model (other than the commissar) with the highest leadership (randomized if multiple with same LD). So it's more than 3 times, it's as many times as you still have models (other than the commissar) in the unit.

Whoops, missed that part. Yeah, That works.

Stupid morning, brain 'aint workin.

Ailaros wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Ermm... wow. Fail. He won't be destroying your infantry in assault if YOU KILL HIM WITH HYDRAS.

...then you're not killing his avatar. Sort of the whole point of the thread, no?

KILL HIM WITH THE HYDRAS. As in, KILL THE AVATAR WITH HYDRAS. I need to spell it out no?

Heavy bolters make guardians cry. So do grenade launchers.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:
Imperial guard list 500 points

CCS
AC/GL/GL

Vets
AC/GL/GL/GL

Vets
AC/GL/GL/GL

Hydra

Hydra

Hydra

Which would get eaten.

This list only has enough firepower to take down the avatar OR the wave of guardians before they hit your lines. Either you're left with an avatar blowing up a hydra a turn with another guardian squad taking down a guard squad a turn or you're left with 4 guardian squads that sweep your infantry off the board in one go and then start laying on the cannon fire onto your hydras.

No. It has enough firepower to take out both.

Yeah, the list is fine. Remember that GL's are assault weapons as well.

Ailaros wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Ermm... wow. Fail. He won't be destroying your infantry in assault if YOU KILL HIM WITH HYDRAS.

...then you're not killing his avatar. Sort of the whole point of the thread, no?

Dude, really? The Avatar dies from the Hydras, then they hydras kill the guardians. I mean, really? It's pretty ing obvious that you kill the Avatar with the Hydras first.

and my point was that if you kill the avatar then you're getting an awful lot of angry guardians charging in and sweeping away your handful of low LD dudes.

Then for the last few turns it's a game of hydras v. guardians at close range. Ignoring the fact that there are no scoring units for a moment, both could do lots of damage to each other. The guardians, however, are in plasma grenade range and can shoot their s6 cannon on the move. Dismal times for the 3 non-scoring units that are in range of certain death without the ability to kill their opponents fast enough.

Ailaros wrote:and my point was that if you kill the avatar then you're getting an awful lot of angry guardians charging in and sweeping away your handful of low LD dudes.

Then for the last few turns it's a game of hydras v. guardians at close range.

Wha. . .?

Wasn't it already determined that the hydras were not even 50% of the points used?

How then would "the last few turns it's a game of hydras v. guardians at close range" ?

/boggle

because 40 shuricannon guardians are going to have no problem sweeping away 25 guardsman.

Ailaros wrote:because 40 shuricannon guardians are going to have no problem sweeping away 25 guardsman.

The man has a point.

Monster Rain wrote:

Ailaros wrote:because 40 shuricannon guardians are going to have no problem sweeping away 25 guardsman.

The man has a point.

Really?! Whilst they walk towards 8 small blast templates and 3 autocannons? I'd love to know how many Guardians would be left once they get to within shooting range as it sure as hell won't be 40...

L. Wrex

There's way too many variables, but the Guardians could stand a chance with use of cover and proper dispersion.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Ailaros wrote:because 40 shuricannon guardians are going to have no problem sweeping away 25 guardsman.

The man has a point.

Really?! Whilst they walk towards 8 small blast templates and 3 autocannons? I'd love to know how many Guardians would be left once they get to within shooting range as it sure as hell won't be 40...

L. Wrex

Agreed, range is a bit of a bitch for the Guardians on this one. With 24" range, all Guardsmen will likely be able to fire on whichever single Guardian squad they want, while being spread out from each other. The Guardians, with their 12" guns, will be pretty limited in targets. The 24" shuriken cannons will put wounds on the squads, and pretty much mean the command squad has to stay hidden once they get into range. 10 man squads can take a couple rounds of fire from the 4 cannons if they're in cover.

Another problem for the Guardians is that they don't have assault grenades, so they can't hurt the Hydras in close combat as implied by Ailaros, and they can't even assault guardsmen in cover and strike first. Hydras aren't open topped, so there's not much fear from shuriken cannons until the Guardians get really close and can get easy side shots. Phalanx up the Hydras side to side and I'm confident saying they don't give a rat's ass about 4 squads of Guardians.

The thing is, 3 infantry autocannons and 3 hydras stand a reasonable chance of dropping the Avatar on turn 1. Almost certainly by turn 2 with some firepower to spare. The guard infantry at that point just hide and only ever expose themselves to one Guardian's squad of fire every turn. They're probably moving to limit shots against them and get cover, so the autcannons aren't firing, but that's probably okay, as they have three immortal Hydras backing them up.

If there's a lot of terrain, it's a real game of moving and objective grabbing, with disadvantage going to the Eldar player because of the lack of decisive effectiveness >12" away. If there's not a lot of terrain Eldar lose a Guardian squad a turn once the Avatar goes down.

3 Hydras 225
Company Command Squad w/ 2 Flamers 60
Chimera 55
Veteran Squad w/2 Grenade Launchers 80
Veteran Squad w/2 Grenade Launchers 80
500 Total

This probably uses the Hydras to take 2 full turns to drop the Avatar, the chimera gets to move around at will against guardians, and the veterans hide and take potshots at targets of opportunity. I think it's meaner than the infantry autocannon list previously proposed.

The key to facing off with the Guardians in the End Game will simply be keeping your infantry in cover, which you should do anyway since you are grossly out manned which is something the IG isn't used to. I'm about %90 sure Guardians don't have grenades which means that if you steal the initiative in CC with them then they are at a slight disadvantage. Use Incoming! when the guardians shoot before the assualt and you should be fine.

Wrexasaur wrote: That sounds terribly expensive. I understand that IG are generally cheap, but 144 shots of anything costs an awful lot of points, and unfortunately enough, you're probably better off using those flashlights against things like T3 Eldar infantry... which is basically the only thing they are very good at doing any damage against.

144 shots to take down a 155 point unit at 1 ft, or the ability to split your firepower effectively against some of the most small-arms vulnerable infantry in the game.

As i said originally... soften it up with missiles or whatever, if the final wound is taken off by lasguns then the avatar might not make an appearance anytime soon. I don't know this guys mindset but in my FLGS if one important unit/character gets taken out by a lasgun, or something similar (something viewed as generally rubbish and useless) then that uniy gets shelfed for a little while. But that may also be a mix of the competative streak, your opponent has altered their army and can beat down your usual list... so people change it rather than improving tactics.

Wrexasuar wrote: You mis-spelled psychological and I am not sure what you are talking about in the first place

Yea, thanks. My spelling isn't perfect and i tend to ramble on. Thank you oh so much for that glorious piece of imformation, now i can live my life without worrying if i mis-spelled psychological... I never see the point in pointing out a spelling mistake... you have to make yourself feel better by pointing things like this out? You know what word i was typing...

Ailaros wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:10 IG AC=20 AC shots, 10 of which are TL with the order bring it down.

How are you getting 10 autocannons with just two BiDs?

What's a BiD? I really can't figure out what that acronym is, and it's driving me crazy.

Anyhow the 10 AC list goes as follows.

Company Command Squad=1BS4 AC

2 Infantry platoons.

Platoon A
Platoon Command Squad=1AC
Infantry Squad #1=1AC
Infantry Squad #2=1AC
Heavy Weapons squad=3AC

Platoon A
Platoon Command Squad=1AC
Infantry Squad #1=1AC
Infantry Squad #2=1AC

That's 10 autocannons at 500 points with 20 STR7 shots per turn.
5 can be TL if orders are given to a combined infantry squad and the heavy weapons squad, and 1 is BS4
It's also 61 wounds of guardsmen, 45 points left over for special weapons, 5 to 7 scoring units depending of squads combine, and a healthy amount of flashlights.

A simple pure infantry list of a CCS, and 2 infantry platoons is actually competitive in 500 point games.

BiD = Bring it down. Just hover your mouse over it

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Ailaros wrote:because 40 shuricannon guardians are going to have no problem sweeping away 25 guardsman.

The man has a point.

Really?! Whilst they walk towards 8 small blast templates and 3 autocannons? I'd love to know how many Guardians would be left once they get to within shooting range as it sure as hell won't be 40...

So, if he lines his guardians way up at the front of his DZ, he's going to get into close combat on turn 3.

If the eldar player goes first, this means 2 rounds of shooting for the guard player. The first round is 1 hit and one scatter onto someone with the GL (say) for about 1 kill. The 3 autocannons put down about 2.5. The next turn, you do the same amount of damage with said weapons, + 16 lasguns FRFSRF. The end result is you getting assaulted by about 30 guardians who put down 60 catapult shots and 60 close combat attacks, which nearly wipes all the guardsmen away in a single go (or does, if there are any failed morale checks, including in close combat that they're horribly losing).

Now, if you're luckier and get first turn and there's no intervening terrain whatsoever and your hydras kill off the avatar faster then normal, then yeah, the eldar are beatable, but the range goes from horrifically losing to soundly beating, and it's all dependent on just a few dice rolls. Less than ideal

Biophysical wrote:
3 Hydras 225
Company Command Squad w/ 2 Flamers 60
Chimera 55
Veteran Squad w/2 Grenade Launchers 80
Veteran Squad w/2 Grenade Launchers 80
500 Total

This probably uses the Hydras to take 2 full turns to drop the Avatar, the chimera gets to move around at will against guardians, and the veterans hide and take potshots at targets of opportunity. I think it's meaner than the infantry autocannon list previously proposed.

I whole-heartedly agree. The chimera really makes the list as you actually have something that can put boots on stuff not in your DZ, and tank shock their guardians right away after the avatar falls (or in the very least, you get to drive-by flamer them without recourse if the avatar is still alive). Plus, this encourages the guard player to play aggressively to do things like tank shock/heavy flamer and to shoot with assault weapons in the infantry while charging forward. Eldar are one of those races that doesnt' necessarily do well against players who browbeat them into a corner in the first place, and, without any extra eldar mobility, I could easily see them being manhandled.

This is probably the best vehicle-based solution to this problem. If you're looking for an infantry-based solution, I'm sure one can be crafted. It really all depends on what models you have lying around and what you can proxy.

dayve110 wrote:As i said originally... soften it up with missiles or whatever, if the final wound is taken off by lasguns then the avatar might not make an appearance anytime soon. I don't know this guys mindset but in my FLGS if one important unit/character gets taken out by a lasgun, or something similar (something viewed as generally rubbish and useless) then that uniy gets shelfed for a little while. But that may also be a mix of the competative streak, your opponent has altered their army and can beat down your usual list... so people change it rather than improving tactics.

If a fortuned Avatar gets dropped by lasguns, that was just a terrible day for the Avatar, or a great day for guardsmen across the universe.

A 3+ RR is a terrible thing to behold. Seriously.

Yea, thanks. My spelling isn't perfect and i tend to ramble on. Thank you oh so much for that glorious piece of imformation, now i can live my life without worrying if i mis-spelled psychological... I never see the point in pointing out a spelling mistake... you have to make yourself feel better by pointing things like this out? You know what word i was typing...

Yes, imformation is a glorious thing.

Hopefully what little pressure I have applied will encourage you to take a bit longer when posting messages. No one minds if you edit for spelling, you don't even need to add 'edited for spelling' at the end of those posts. I hope to make YOU feel better when you realize spell-check is your friend. More to the point, no one is as scared of flashlights as you are suggesting. If you want to make use of them, and they are limited in effectiveness beyond a foot, use them to mow down weedy Eldar infantry like guardians... the units that get wounded on a 4+ and don't have the ability to wear 'sunglasses of not being hurt by IG flashlights'.

3+ RR, a truly awesome thing.

Infantry Solution:

Primaris Psyker
(Average 7 shots with Lightning Arc)
7 * 2/3 (hitting) * 1/2 (wounding)* 1/3 (armor save) = 7/6

For 140 Points (2 Psykers), you still kill the Avatar in 2 rounds, but save yourself 85 points and get HQs that aren't exceptionally vulnerable to Shuriken Cannons.

Veteran Squad, 3 Grenade Launchers, Autocannon: 95
Veteran Squad, 3 Grenade Launchers, Autocannon: 95
Veteran Squad, 3 Grenade Launchers: 85
Veteran Squad, 3 Grenade Launchers: 85

Grenade Launchers vs. Avatar: 3 * 2/3 (hit) * 1/2 (wound) * 1/3 (save) = 1/3 grenade launcher wounds per veteran squad

Autocannons vs. Avatar: 2 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 2/9 Autocannon wounds per veteran squad

If this army can bring all special and heavy weapons to bear on the Avatar, it stands a good chance of dying in a single turn. If it can't bring them all to bear, they're beating up Guardian squads. The Veteran squads have better mobile firepower than the Guardians outside of 12", and not much worse inside of 12". You could trade out a couple grenade launchers for a couple flamers to roast Guardians that get close. You probably wouldn't miss 2 out of 12 grenade launchers, and the flamers could really be decisive up close.

Lol! Having two psykers walk up and force lightning an avatar to death would be hilarious.

I think one of the things to note as well is that if you want to blow your opponent's avatar off the table and then KEEP it off (as in, left on the shelf), then you've got to kill it in some humiliating way. Losing the last wound to a lasgun or a single imperial guard model would be sufficiently humiliating. With the hydras, your opponent can think "Yeah, but if he hadn't brought all those tanks I could have won", whereas taking the last couple of wounds off with lasguns will more likely make him think "man, this avatar SUCKS!"

Were I to tackle it, I'd do it like this:

primaris psyker - 70

vets with 2x plasma - 100

PCS - flamer, chimera (HF, HB) - 35
PIS - powersword, commissar with power sword -105
PIS - powersword - 60

Hellhound - 130

The super-flamer PCS+chimera and the hellhound will make burnt toast out of the guardians, while the psyker and the power blob can easily take down the avatar in a couple of turns, and then they'll be left to charge the remnants of the guardians (or chill out on an objective). Plasma vets applied where needed.

Ld9+Stubborn+summary execution helps circumvent the problem of having too few troops, and this list provides serious hurt on those guardians, unlike just throwing around an autocannon or GL shot here and there.

Ailaros wrote:I think one of the things to note as well is that if you want to blow your opponent's avatar off the table and then KEEP it off (as in, left on the shelf), then you've got to kill it in some humiliating way. Losing the last wound to a lasgun or a single imperial guard model would be sufficiently humiliating. With the hydras, your opponent can think "Yeah, but if he hadn't brought all those tanks I could have won", whereas taking the last couple of wounds off with lasguns will more likely make him think "man, this avatar SUCKS!".

Why?

How is it even possible to get enough shots to break through a 3+ RR, the odds boggle my mind. It would be no less than terrible luck to lose a hardcore MC to a flashlight, not even terrible luck, it would be an very rare anomaly. You need 100 wounds to break a 3+ RR, as the odds are 99/100 to save. It seems a whole lot more likely than it actually is.

Besides the hardcore RR, the basic geometry of getting that many shots in with short ranged weaponry is next to impossible. My guess is that it actually is impossible, and only an Avatar without Farseer backup needs to give a second thought to flashlights. You need 12 shots to land one wound @BS3/S3, all the while ignoring the fact that using those same guns on something much squishier, will actually make your lasguns effective in some way. When push comes to shove, Guardians can multi-assault and win against small IG squads, where the Avatar can only take on one at a time, and he isn't a troops unit.

When you are being faced by an Avatar and 20-40 Guardians, NOT wasting your flashlights in a vain attempt to get your opponent to shelve a relatively great unit, is generally a good idea. More than being a good idea, it is a great idea. If for some reason your Hydra aren't taking out an Avatar over two turns, like trash to the bin, I would still be hard pressed to think of a situation where it makes less sense to just shoot at squishy stuff. On second thought, those Hydra are not going to do much at all against a fortuned avatar, so they only make sense in very small games, where it doesn't really make sense to take the Avatar in the first place. AP4 is better used against aspect warriors, but most of the time you're giving cover saves as it is, so it still isn't particularly amazing against infantry. Catching most aspect warriors in the open, is likely to be the bees knees.

Guardians have FoF, the Avatar doesn't... which is really the greatest threat to IG squads? I don't consider this a complicated issue, more one of simple pragmatism. Flashlights do better against single wound units like Warlocks, and even then they aren't that good, just feasible as a method of cheaply dealing with expensive units. Getting shots on one model (even with a large base), vs. shots on 5-10 small to medium based models, is a totally different ballgame.

If your squads are within rapid fire range, they are in assault range, so use them in a way that they can actually counter an Avatars strength... Just try to use units that can stick in that fight for multiple turns, via Ld RRs. There is a much larger opportunity for success with tarpitting, while shooting flashlights is just silly.