Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Normally I don't support tailoring lists for a game, but if someone's going to being a nasty MC like the avatar to a 500 point game by all means go ahead.

For IG the anti eldar solution is AC spam.

CCS and2 infantry platoons with 1 heavy weapons squad.

Just spam as many AC as possible. You can get 10 into your list with just the CCS, 2 PCS, 4 regular squads, and 1 HWS. Use bring it down on the HWS and 6AC shots are TL. Combine 2 squads into a platoon and use the other order to give that platoon bring it down and 4 more AC shots are TL along with the 2 grenade launchers and 12 flashlights.

Best of all everything but the CCS is a scoring unit in objective based games. Eldar love 500 point objective based games against guard lists with 5 or 6 scoring units almost as much as they love seeing 10 autocannons in a 500 point game.

All flame and melta weapons fail against avatar, that's it.

I wouldn't take anything in the form of a vehicle against the avatar. Monstrous creature and has an inbuilt meltgaun which hits on a 2+. If you bung up your shooting or you're shaken for some reason, then the tank is going to die.

schadenfreude wrote:You can get 10 into your list with just the CCS, 2 PCS, 4 regular squads, and 1 HWS. Use bring it down on the HWS and 6AC shots are TL.

That's 455 points, assuming no other upgrades. You're putting two wounds on the avatar a turn, sure, but you're army is basically useless against the entire rest of your opponent's list. Hardly seems worth it to me.

Meanwhile, 3x hydras do the same damage for 250 points. Of course, this is still making a pretty serious sacrifice to your list (as the rest of the dudes would be nearly weaponless).

I mean, about how much does one of these avatars cost anyways?

---

Actually, I've got a better idea. Spend 35 points to throw in a commissar into a 20 dude blob squad. You could easily tar-pit the avatar into blatant irrelavance for the entire game, and it's a much cheaper solution.

yea, the thing about hydras is.... there is literally nothing in the eldar codex they are not good at killing.

NOTHING. hell, even ranges in cover. just drive up to em, and start blasting away at point blank (you can deny cover saves if firing through less than 2" of area terrain).

Avatar points cost = 3 chimeras -10 points

Anyhoo:

I think the list goes something like this:

Avatar

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

Might not be, though that seems like it would be just about right, he may have just thrown in a fortuneseer in lieu of a squad of guardians.

holy heck.

Yeah, I'd definitely take a blob squad with commissar to handle the avatar. Then I'd wirgle the points to try and fit a manticore or hellhound in there

I would use a squad of 10 meganobs 400 points, 1 warboss with Eavy Armour 65, 10 gretchin/1 runtherd for 33

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:
I think the list goes something like this:

Avatar

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

Might not be, though that seems like it would be just about right, he may have just thrown in a fortuneseer in lieu of a squad of guardians.

Wow, this is a really weak list. If you have hull heavy flamers on all your vehicles, forget the avatar--just drive forward and flame all the guardians to death.

Seriously, though, it's an army built around using the Avatar's 12" fearless bubble to keep those weedy guardian squads from running. So that makes killing the Avatar early with long-range fire even more beneficial. Once the A is down, the guardian units make a test at Ld 8 for every 2 or 3 models they lose, and can't regroup below half. Since they have nothing that can shoot further than 24" (30" with a move) a mech guard army should be able to stand off and kill everything without ever taking any serious fire, or take down the Avatar and then tank-shock all the guardians off the table.

Unlimited Pts - 5th Edition Roster

HQ: Company Command Squad (5#, 60 pts)
2 Company Command Squad @ 60 pts
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Company Commander

Troops: Infantry Platoon (35#, 215 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 215 pts
4 Platoon Command Squad
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad (Vox Caster)
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Sergeant

Troops: Infantry Platoon (35#, 225 pts)
1 Infantry Platoon @ 225 pts
2 Platoon Command Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Platoon Commander
7 Infantry Squad (Vox Caster)
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Sergeant
7 Infantry Squad
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon)
1 Sergeant

Total Roster Cost: 500

Thats 8 autocannons in the list with 6 that can reroll missed hits vs MC due to orders and can reroll the orders. 1 HQ and 2 troops and the platoon command squads can advance if needed. Your looking with each platoon with 21 lasguns if within 24 inches and 6 autocannon shots that should put a hurting on the avatar with 2 platoons.

21 lasguns 10 hit and 5 more hit with the reroll.
6 autocannons 3 hit and 2 more hit with reroll.

3 wounds with autocannons and 2 wounds with lasguns. It comes out to roughly 1.8 wounds and that is not counting the other 2 autocannons from the PCS and CCS.

Flavius Infernus wrote:So that makes killing the Avatar early with long-range fire even more beneficial.

Yeah, it's definitely better, but is it worth the huge cost?

Flavius Infernus wrote: Since they have nothing that can shoot further than 24" (30" with a move) a mech guard army should be able to stand off and kill everything without ever taking any serious fire

I agree. This list brings exactly 1 piece of anti-tank, and that one piece can only target a single vehicle at once. If you spread your forces out so that the avatar has to spend lots of time running, you should be able to give the avatar the slip with at least a couple of vehicles so that you can heavy flamer the guardians.

Perhaps the 3x hydra strategy makes more sense if you give the hydras heavy flamers. In the first three turns they handle the avatar and in the next few they try and hose stuff down with heavy flamers. Of course, flamers aren't as good if your opponent spreads out properly, and people DO make morale checks on 8, so it's still pretty risky, given that the rest of your list would still have nothing in it.

I still think you can do a human wave better than your opponent can do an elf wave. Beating him at his own game shouldn't be ALL that hard in this case.

oh by the way the game was cancelled :( cause he/it couldnt make it (everybody calls him a slaanesh spawn (dunno why)) so we decided to take a 1500 pts game next saturday
are devildogs good? since they have template weapons not flamers but weapons that shoot acid that always wounds on a 2+ (strengh 1 though)

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:
I think the list goes something like this:

Avatar

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

Might not be, though that seems like it would be just about right, he may have just thrown in a fortuneseer in lieu of a squad of guardians.

Wow, this is a really weak list. If you have hull heavy flamers on all your vehicles, forget the avatar--just drive forward and flame all the guardians to death.

Seriously, though, it's an army built around using the Avatar's 12" fearless bubble to keep those weedy guardian squads from running. So that makes killing the Avatar early with long-range fire even more beneficial. Once the A is down, the guardian units make a test at Ld 8 for every 2 or 3 models they lose, and can't regroup below half. Since they have nothing that can shoot further than 24" (30" with a move) a mech guard army should be able to stand off and kill everything without ever taking any serious fire, or take down the Avatar and then tank-shock all the guardians off the table.

Heavens yes, I make better lists in my sleep.

I only do mechanized with walkers, anything else is just plain meh.

The point is that the avatar is hard to kill especially with the farseer.

Avatar munches anything in 500 points. That, and shuriken cannons destroy anything with AV 10 relatively easy.

That is a 500 point list that I *shudders* commonly see though. It has its upsides... but it has four wounds of success... nothing else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:So that makes killing the Avatar early with long-range fire even more beneficial.

Yeah, it's definitely better, but is it worth the huge cost?

Flavius Infernus wrote: Since they have nothing that can shoot further than 24" (30" with a move) a mech guard army should be able to stand off and kill everything without ever taking any serious fire

I agree. This list brings exactly 1 piece of anti-tank, and that one piece can only target a single vehicle at once. If you spread your forces out so that the avatar has to spend lots of time running, you should be able to give the avatar the slip with at least a couple of vehicles so that you can heavy flamer the guardians.

Perhaps the 3x hydra strategy makes more sense if you give the hydras heavy flamers. In the first three turns they handle the avatar and in the next few they try and hose stuff down with heavy flamers. Of course, flamers aren't as good if your opponent spreads out properly, and people DO make morale checks on 8, so it's still pretty risky, given that the rest of your list would still have nothing in it.

I still think you can do a human wave better than your opponent can do an elf wave. Beating him at his own game shouldn't be ALL that hard in this case.

Short of range and cost, guardians are better though. Heavy weapon squads as well as some kind of vehicle should put a dent in him. (Avatar has a melta, so don't rely on the vehicle if it isn't a backyard camper...)

sluggaslugga wrote:oh by the way the game was cancelled :( cause he/it couldnt make it (everybody calls him a slaanesh spawn (dunno why)) so we decided to take a 1500 pts game next saturday
are devildogs good? since they have template weapons not flamers but weapons that shoot acid that always wounds on a 2+ (strengh 1 though)

That would be a Banewolf, FYI. Devil Dog is the one that shoots the melta blast.

sluggaslugga wrote:oh by the way the game was cancelled :( cause he/it couldnt make it (everybody calls him a slaanesh spawn (dunno why)) so we decided to take a 1500 pts game next saturday
are devildogs good? since they have template weapons not flamers but weapons that shoot acid that always wounds on a 2+ (strengh 1 though)

Thats the bane wolf, they're useful against MeQ armies, but you'll have to run a serious risk to get it to cause some damage, BUT, if you did get it close to a badly positioned tactical squad you could eradicate the squad beyond usefulness in a single round of shooting.

Devildogs have been done to death, it has the same range as a multi-melta yet runs the risk of having half strengh due to the template scatter.

Hellhound are probably your best bet in the hellhound squadron options, give it a multi-melta and you have a better anti-tank platform than the devildog and a just as strong weapons platform against infantry (because you don't have to get so close)

But take my advice with caution, I make it from what I read in 'dexs and on forums as I don't play guard myself (would love to though).

Go for Veteran squads of Grenade Launchers. The Frag rounds will murder the Guardians, while the Krak rounds will deal with the Avatar in sufficient volumes. Plus they're mobile and have twice the range of Shuriken Catapults.

Ailaros wrote:Yeah, it's definitely better, but is it worth the huge cost?

Considering that the Avatar is the nastiest thing in the list; hell YES it is! Seriously, what kind of question is that? Shall I ignore the Fearless, 4 wound, T6 MC in favour of killing Guardians that won't run away until said Avatar is dead? I'm actually speechless that you asked such a question and am seriously hoping that it was rhetorical.

Ailaros wrote:Perhaps the 3x hydra strategy makes more sense if you give the hydras heavy flamers. In the first three turns they handle the avatar and in the next few they try and hose stuff down with heavy flamers. Of course, flamers aren't as good if your opponent spreads out properly, and people DO make morale checks on 8, so it's still pretty risky, given that the rest of your list would still have nothing in it.

Ok, here is where you need to stop giving advice on Guard threads. Your going to forgoe 6 twin-linked, killing-on-2s, 72" range autocannons AND a heavy bolter for a heavy flamer? You can simply sit at the back of the board and dakka him to death. There's simply no NEED to advance, as he has to get within 30" to even scratch you, at which point he should have practically nothing left on the table.

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Yeah, it's definitely better, but is it worth the huge cost?

Considering that the Avatar is the nastiest thing in the list; hell YES it is! Seriously, what kind of question is that? Shall I ignore the Fearless, 4 wound, T6 MC in favour of killing Guardians that won't run away until said Avatar is dead? I'm actually speechless that you asked such a question and am seriously hoping that it was rhetorical.

It really wasn't.

I don't doubt that the avatar is scary, but just because it's scary doesnt' give you a free pass to make some very serious list-building errors, like spending 100% of your points just to take down a single model.

Especially not when there are other ways to handle the avatar at a much more reasonable price.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:
Ok, here is where you need to stop giving advice on Guard threads. Your going to forgoe 6 twin-linked, killing-on-2s, 72" range autocannons AND a heavy bolter for a heavy flamer? You can simply sit at the back of the board and dakka him to death. There's simply no NEED to advance, as he has to get within 30" to even scratch you, at which point he should have practically nothing left on the table.

Math to the rescue!

A single hydra shooting at guardians in cover:
4 shots, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, 1.25 guardians dead.

Now, you're spending 250 points, which are going to be shooting at an avatar for 3 turns. This means that they will be putting down between 7.5 and 15 guardians down, depending on the length of the game.

What is your other 250 points of infantry really going to be doing against his other 30 dudes? Furthermore, how do you expect to win objectives games?

Or I could just not give this advice and let the OP fail horribly by attempting to gunline his opponent.

A couple of Colossi(closures?) Would do a number on this list.

Ailaros wrote:Math to the rescue!

A single hydra shooting at guardians in cover:
4 shots, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, 1.25 guardians dead.

Fantastic. His Guardians are in cover! My guns outrange his. So whilst I may kill 1.25 Guardians a turn he's killing...0. Multiply that result by 3, due to the squadron having 3 Hydras, and now I'm forcing a Leadership check a turn. That maths also isn't taking the heavy bolter into account. And all the while he's doing...nothing. Where's the logic in suggesting I nullify this advantage by mixing 72" guns and a template on the same tank?

Ailaros wrote:Now, you're spending 250 points, which are going to be shooting at an avatar for 3 turns. This means that they will be putting down between 7.5 and 15 guardians down, depending on the length of the game.

What is your other 250 points of infantry really going to be doing against his other 30 dudes? Furthermore, how do you expect to win objectives games?

250 points is a veritable f*ck-ton of Guardsmen. Some could be armed with GLACs, some with flamers. I now have a semi-mobile and a firebase with which to both outgun his army if he leaves cover for any reason, or outmanouver him if he chooses to stay put.

Either way the odds are firmly stacked in the Guard's favour.

L. Wrex

I'm just spitballing here but since no one has brought it up I'll ask. What are your thoughts on a Sniper squad as a relativley low cost plan B option? I'm just trying to think of additional ways to squeeze easy wounds out of the Avatar without throwing the rest of the game.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Fantastic. His Guardians are in cover! My guns outrange his. So whilst I may kill 1.25 Guardians a turn he's killing...0.

... because he's just sitting on the other end of the board with 12" guns not moving? How dumb do you suspect the eldar player is?

He's got three turns to find cover. By that time, he may well be getting "cover" from the fact that he's destroying your infantry in assault by turn 4.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:250 points is a veritable f*ck-ton of Guardsmen. Some could be armed with GLACs, some with flamers. I now have a semi-mobile and a firebase with which to both outgun his army if he leaves cover for any reason, or outmanouver him if he chooses to stay put.

Wow, talk about serious list-building errors.

a infantry platoon costs 130 points, base. Also, you need to have an HQ. After you throw in a bare-bones CCS (your cheapest option), you have 200 points. The only way to get 2 troops choices in 200 points is 2 squads of vets. You have 10 points left to distribute special weapons.

If you'd ever bother to take a broader look at things, you'd see that the guard list would be 3 hydras, and 25 T3 lasgunners. The eldar player puts down an MC of doom and 40 fearless guardians with eldar machine guns. Tell me how that's definitely "in the guard's favor".

Ailaros wrote:... because he's just sitting on the other end of the board with 12" guns not moving? How dumb do you suspect the eldar player is?

He's got three turns to find cover. By that time, he may well be getting "cover" from the fact that he's destroying your infantry in assault by turn 4.

And whilst he's moving he's vulnerable. The Hydras can blast away a Guardian squad a turn, its simple fire priority on the Guard player's part as to whether he wants to chisel down the Avatar, or reduce his 'retinue's' damage potential by a quarter. The board is not going to be a Cities of Death with cover strewn left right and centre for him to take advantage of. In such a situation the Guard are going to find themselves in a whole heap of trouble regardless of the army they are facing.

It seems you constantly alter your maths to suit your side of the argument constantly. If you want to show how 'ineffective' Hydras are, you put the Guardians in cover. But now we're taking into account terrain, enemy movement, deployment and a whole host of other subjective factors that you are very, very quick to disregard in all your other posts? We're discussing the maths here, not how a game would be played.

Ailaros wrote:Wow, talk about serious list-building errors.

a infantry platoon costs 130 points, base. Also, you need to have an HQ. After you throw in a bare-bones CCS (your cheapest option), you have 200 points. The only way to get 2 troops choices in 200 points is 2 squads of vets. You have 10 points left to distribute special weapons.

3 x Hydras = 225
CCS = 50
2 x Veterans = 140

Total = 415.

I make it 85 points to spend on heavy weapons. That's 3 more BS4 autocannons, 2 with BiD on that Avatar.

L. Wrex

P.S. I was wrong about the Platoon. My bad!

Ailaros wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Fantastic. His Guardians are in cover! My guns outrange his. So whilst I may kill 1.25 Guardians a turn he's killing...0.

... because he's just sitting on the other end of the board with 12" guns not moving? How dumb do you suspect the eldar player is?

He's got three turns to find cover. By that time, he may well be getting "cover" from the fact that he's destroying your infantry in assault by turn 4.

Ermm... wow. Fail. He won't be destroying your infantry in assault if YOU KILL HIM WITH HYDRAS. And you yourself said in cover, which there are plenty of turns they wont be. They also have 24" range cannons. That wreck light vehicles and T3 multi-wound models. His guardians certainly won't be if they go near your infantry.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:250 points is a veritable f*ck-ton of Guardsmen. Some could be armed with GLACs, some with flamers. I now have a semi-mobile and a firebase with which to both outgun his army if he leaves cover for any reason, or outmanouver him if he chooses to stay put.

Wow, talk about serious list-building errors.

a infantry platoon costs 130 points, base. Also, you need to have an HQ. After you throw in a bare-bones CCS (your cheapest option), you have 200 points. The only way to get 2 troops choices in 200 points is 2 squads of vets. You have 10 points left to distribute special weapons.

If you'd ever bother to take a broader look at things, you'd see that the guard list would be 3 hydras, and 25 T3 lasgunners. The eldar player puts down an MC of doom and 40 fearless guardians with eldar machine guns. Tell me how that's definitely "in the guard's favor".

Wrong. CCSs are 50 points.

/game

Imperial guard list 500 points

CCS
AC/GL/GL

Vets
AC/GL/GL/GL

Vets
AC/GL/GL/GL

Hydra

Hydra

Hydra

You still have a few points left over. Upgrade/downgrade a few ACs to heavy bolters.

Something something something 15 points left over. You people play guard, use it.

I agree with LC. Your advice is counter-productive. It clogs up intelligent discussion of tactics.

The whole guardians in infantry vs guardians outside of infantry argument you have going with yourself is pretty funny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
LC. You edited it 4 times before I even posted this!

Ailaros constantly screws with math to suit his argument. Check any thread he uses math in.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:I'm just spitballing here but since no one has brought it up I'll ask. What are your thoughts on a Sniper squad as a relativley low cost plan B option? I'm just trying to think of additional ways to squeeze easy wounds out of the Avatar without throwing the rest of the game.

Yeah, a 10-man ratling squad runs at 100 points, stealth BS 4 sniper rifles. Only downside is range, but with infiltrate, 36" should be fine. Decent plan for a back-up. Would only cause a wound or two per turn, though. Where the Hydra could possibly kill it in one turn.

Gavo wrote:

ComputerGeek01 wrote:I'm just spitballing here but since no one has brought it up I'll ask. What are your thoughts on a Sniper squad as a relativley low cost plan B option? I'm just trying to think of additional ways to squeeze easy wounds out of the Avatar without throwing the rest of the game.

Yeah, a 10-man ratling squad runs at 100 points, stealth BS 4 sniper rifles. Only downside is range, but with infiltrate, 36" should be fine. Decent plan for a back-up. Would only cause a wound or two per turn, though. Where the Hydra could possibly kill it in one turn.

Thanks for the reply. That's sort of the point though for a hundred points you're adding to the Hydra\insert_method_to_kill_Avatar_here without limiting your primary choice. I was acctually thinking of putting the Sniper Rifles on the Vets, everyone is treating the Troops as overhead but I think with the sniper rifles you are paying less then you are for some of the other Heavy Weapons and you're getting close to the same stopping power.

Ailaros wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:You can get 10 into your list with just the CCS, 2 PCS, 4 regular squads, and 1 HWS. Use bring it down on the HWS and 6AC shots are TL.

That's 455 points, assuming no other upgrades. You're putting two wounds on the avatar a turn, sure, but you're army is basically useless against the entire rest of your opponent's list. Hardly seems worth it to me.

Meanwhile, 3x hydras do the same damage for 250 points. Of course, this is still making a pretty serious sacrifice to your list (as the rest of the dudes would be nearly weaponless).

I mean, about how much does one of these avatars cost anyways?

---

Actually, I've got a better idea. Spend 35 points to throw in a commissar into a 20 dude blob squad. You could easily tar-pit the avatar into blatant irrelavance for the entire game, and it's a much cheaper solution.

The Avatar is 155 points.

3 Hydras=12 TL AC shots. Average hits per turn is 9
10 IG AC=20 AC shots, 10 of which are TL with the order bring it down. Average hits per turn is 12.5 with successful orders, or 10 hits if all bring it down orders fail. Either way it's still more AC hits per turn than the hydras. If orders are successful then 12AC hits=8 wounds=4 failed saves=dead avatar.

It's 455 points for 51 guardsmen, 46 of which are scoring units with the the 5 guardsmen in the PCS being the only exception. That leaves 45 points left over for grenade launchers, flamers, and vox casters. Personally I would just buy 6 grenade launchers and 3 vox casters 1 for the PCS and 1 for each platoon of 20 guardsmen. Grenade launchers can drop str6 hits on the Avatar if the avatar is still alive, or drop frag on guardians, and guardians are going to have issues with massed flashlights doing the 1st rank fire 2nd rank fire order. It's actually a decent all comers list at 500 points

Meh, they just won't do as well as GL against the fearless guardians.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Avatar points cost = 3 chimeras -10 points

Anyhoo:

I think the list goes something like this:

Avatar

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

Might not be, though that seems like it would be just about right, he may have just thrown in a fortuneseer in lieu of a squad of guardians.

If IG goes 1st 5 TL AC from a HWS and platoon under the bring it down order +5 AC from the CCS, 2 PCS, and 2nd platoon is enough to bring the avatar down in 1 round of shooting.
If Eldar go 1st keep in mind the Shuriken Cannons only have a 24" range.

Shuriken Cannon range=24"
AutoCannon range=48"

The game will be won or lost depending on deployment. In 2/3 scenarios the deployment heavily favors IG.

Pitched Battle: This is the best case scenario for the Eldar. The trick is you have to deploy your units 30" away from his Shuirken Cannons. That way even if he moves 6" they are out of range. The problem is in a pitched battle the only safe location is the last 6" of your deployment zone, the only good news is he has to deploy 1st if he's going 1st. If he doesn't deploy his Shuirken Cannons at his 12" line you have more breathing room, otherwise you've got to stick to the last 6" and/or move to the side with your PCS and HWS. Your 20 man infantry platoon can take a hit or 2 from shuiken cannons so they can be a bit more forward, you just can't give up any shuirken cannon shots on your PCS or HWS.

Spearhead: Same as pitched battle with more breathing room as you have a deeper deployment zone. This should be a nightmare for the eldar player.

Dawn of War: After he deploys his Avatar and 2 guardian squads you get to deploy your entire army. Since his guardian squads have to remain within 12" of his Avatar his deployment is limited. You should be able to keep your HWS and PCS 30" away from his shuirken cannons, and best of all you get to deploy your entire army while the eldar player can only deploy 2/4 guardian squads with the other 2 rolling onto the field far far away from your front lines. Since he probably won't want to break his army up and have half his guardians out of the avatar's fearless range he will probably keep everything in reserve. That's OK, just don't deploy anything within 30" of his board edge, so only use the 1st 18" of your own board edge. The end result is he starts off very far away from you, and you always get the 1st round of shooting regardless of who goes 1st. This should be a complete F'n nightmare for an eldar list that relies on guardians with shuirken cannons.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Avatar points cost = 3 chimeras -10 points

Anyhoo:

I think the list goes something like this:

Avatar

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

10 Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon

Might not be, though that seems like it would be just about right, he may have just thrown in a fortuneseer in lieu of a squad of guardians.

This list is definitely hard to beat.
What list are you playing. Schadenfreude mentioned IG.
An Avatar is hard to take down via shooting no matter what.
Autocannons and assault cannons can eventually do it, or massive bolter fire.

i was thinking about ratlings (rending special rule)
first round i shoot at it with everything i got (not everything actually) so that it might lose a couple of wounds then in the next round put a marbo in his back (also rending weapon) he will have to choose either slaughter my marbo or guardsmen its a hard choice since the marbo has a catachan blade with poison so it also wound with a 2+ when he is distracted ill kill his DIRE AVENGERS yes he is gonna use some dire avengers and puteverything against his avatar