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agnosto wrote:

sebster wrote:

Mate, you have no idea how ridiculous 2nd ed could get. You would throw smoke grenades to cover your advance, and then spend the first twenty minutes of every turn rolling to see if each grenade got smaller, or where it scattered to. Each grenade. Each turn.

You forgot about vortex grenades just bouncing around the field the whole game, randomly wiping stuff out....theirs and yours...

And then there's the Ork stuff.

Yeah. The Shokk Attack Gun is tame compared to 2nd edition Ork wargear.

I actually remember when I first bought the Codex way back randomly walking into my shop, unaware Chaos got an update. Bought it immedietly and drove home gitty. Sat down for a few hours just reading the stories, any sort of new look at the Horus Heresy and looking for juicy World Eater fluff. Suddenly I reached the unit options and was struck at odds, wondering where the gifts were. I read further and saw the marks had not changed too much *was so overjoyed to see Khorne no longer caused raging* went through the stats "OH! Chaos Lords are WS 6 now!? HOTNESS!" Sorcerers got a nice buff but didn't care as Khorne didn't allow them. Saw the possessed and became puzzled. Then we got to the troops and I saw my Berzerkers gained a great buff yet sadly lost their chainaxes :(. A loss but now I don't have to blow a bunch of points on vetern skills, now I can spend more on counter attack! *more on that soon* Thumbed up the defiler, not much changed except now it's a dread and not a MC. Eh ok. Then more fluff. Cool. Now we get to the back of the book and again army unit selection. Where is the daemonic gift section? The books of chaos? Wtf? WTF NO VETERN SKILLS!? WTF MIXED GODS!? EXPLAIN THIS bs!!!!!!

Much to say I had a nice long sitdown and pondered wtf would become of my World Eater list. The only saving grace was Kharn got a JUICY bonus for a mere few points. Unfortunately I can't claim he shoots a friendly unit on a roll of 1 with his pistol. Oh well.

Then I realized my demons were gone and everything within a 2 mile radius could feel the palpable rage seething out of my fists.

Terminus wrote:Since we're talking about crazy editions, I hope 6th edition 40K is half-Epic, much like 8th WFB is half-Warmaster. Make the Spearhead vehicle rules part of the core rules, drop the cost of everything by like 25-50%, and streamline everything so you can still get a 2000 point game in under two hours. They'd make so much damn money! And I'd field sooo many damn guardsmen!

Right cause being able to field 1000 squishy guardsmen isnt enough already XD I've actually seen that...some guy did it, maxing out every slot of the FOC with guardsmen of some sort...it was murder to play against
OK movement phase!
4 Hours Later
OK! Check LOS for the shooting phase!

dbsamurai wrote:

Terminus wrote:Since we're talking about crazy editions, I hope 6th edition 40K is half-Epic, much like 8th WFB is half-Warmaster. Make the Spearhead vehicle rules part of the core rules, drop the cost of everything by like 25-50%, and streamline everything so you can still get a 2000 point game in under two hours. They'd make so much damn money! And I'd field sooo many damn guardsmen!

Right cause being able to field 1000 squishy guardsmen isnt enough already XD I've actually seen that...some guy did it, maxing out every slot of the FOC with guardsmen of some sort...it was murder to play against
OK movement phase!
4 Hours Later
OK! Check LOS for the shooting phase!

Hence borrowing the streamlined phase resolution from Epic. Movement trays could make moving large number of models easy enough, and give GW yet another product to sell me.

I really hope they don't do that for 6th edition 40k. That's why we have apocalypse. I want to keep this hobby at least slightly affordable. Not to mention the time involved just converting and painting everything.

Fafnir wrote:I really hope they don't do that for 6th edition 40k. That's why we have apocalypse. I want to keep this hobby at least slightly affordable. Not to mention the time involved just converting and painting everything.

i agree!

Fafnir wrote:I really hope they don't do that for 6th edition 40k. That's why we have apocalypse. I want to keep this hobby at least slightly affordable. Not to mention the time involved just converting and painting everything.

It's not an expensive hobby at all as far as hobbies go. Whatever the next edition brings, I think it's a safer bet that armies will get bigger rather than smaller.

Yes it is.

Other hobbies might be more expensive, but that doesn't change the fact that this one is.

Terminus wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I really hope they don't do that for 6th edition 40k. That's why we have apocalypse. I want to keep this hobby at least slightly affordable. Not to mention the time involved just converting and painting everything.

It's not an expensive hobby at all as far as hobbies go. Whatever the next edition brings, I think it's a safer bet that armies will get bigger rather than smaller.

o my this hobby is one of the priciest.

IT should be more then possible, for chaos SM to follow SM. The way I mean this is you have standard Vilnilla Ultramarines, and their close cousins in One Codex. All the very different Chapters got their own book, Black Templars, Blood Angels, ect ect. So couldn't you have a standard Chaos Marine Codex, ie Alpha Legion, and then army books for the god specific Chaos Marine armies, and maybe an Ally system like Inquisistion Had?? Hell it would mean GW would make you buy an extra book or two and make more money,

IHEARTLARGEBLASTTEMPLATES wrote:

Terminus wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I really hope they don't do that for 6th edition 40k. That's why we have apocalypse. I want to keep this hobby at least slightly affordable. Not to mention the time involved just converting and painting everything.

It's not an expensive hobby at all as far as hobbies go. Whatever the next edition brings, I think it's a safer bet that armies will get bigger rather than smaller.

o my this hobby is one of the priciest.

yeah! For some people money is no object i guess...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

IHEARTLARGEBLASTTEMPLATES wrote:

Terminus wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I really hope they don't do that for 6th edition 40k. That's why we have apocalypse. I want to keep this hobby at least slightly affordable. Not to mention the time involved just converting and painting everything.

It's not an expensive hobby at all as far as hobbies go. Whatever the next edition brings, I think it's a safer bet that armies will get bigger rather than smaller.

o my this hobby is one of the priciest.

yeah! For some people money is no object i guess...

Well im 14 and it is hard to come by! but clearly to others it's not that bad...

IHEARTLARGEBLASTTEMPLATES wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

IHEARTLARGEBLASTTEMPLATES wrote:

Terminus wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I really hope they don't do that for 6th edition 40k. That's why we have apocalypse. I want to keep this hobby at least slightly affordable. Not to mention the time involved just converting and painting everything.

It's not an expensive hobby at all as far as hobbies go. Whatever the next edition brings, I think it's a safer bet that armies will get bigger rather than smaller.

o my this hobby is one of the priciest.

yeah! For some people money is no object i guess...

Well im 14 and it is hard to come by! but clearly to others it's not that bad...

This post explains so much.

Expensive?

Compared to what? Let me compare it to some hobbies my friends and/or I have held in the past years.

Console Gaming:

- Buying a next gen console (I'm talking within the first year, you're not a videogamer if you wait 4 years for 3 price drops): 400-600$
- Buying an extra controller: 30-60
- Buying games: 40-70$ per

Computer Gaming:

- A powerful gaming computer is upward of a 1,000 and can go much higher. I have friend who's computer are powered by small suns and who makes Skynet look like a wuss... constantly upgrading it and tweaking with it... a 600$ video card? Sure, why not!
- And (legally at least), you still have to buy the game. In the case of MMO, the fee never really goes away.

LARP'ing

- Well made foam weapon can fetch in the 100$, and period item of clothing are also quite expensive. I have a friend who spent 500$ in preparation for a week long LARP.

Driving a Motorcycle

- Well, considering you're spending about 7,000$ (or much more really) on the bike itself, and you still got to buy gear and deal with licenses and stuff... I'm not even going to bother breaking that one down further. Worse, where I live, this is only a few months long activity (Summer). I ended up selling my bike

Snowboarding/Skying

- A couple hundreds to a bit over a thousand dollars on gear alone. And than you need a pass to go sky, which cost a lot in and out of themselves.

Going out and drinking

- At roughly 5$ a beer, plus bar food, plus the fact that you may want to go the restaurant... things can get crazy really fast. I've myself spend more than a 100$ in one night and I'm not the biggest offender... some people do this several time a week, every week.


They are cheaper hobbies of course... but I just listed some fairly common ones (Well except for LARPing, it isn't exactly common...) which are all more expensive to equally expensive. The problem for many people when they talk about miniature being expensive, is that they see it 'on top' of their other hobbies they already do, not replacing it.

Tarkand wrote:Computer Gaming:

- A powerful gaming computer is upward of a 1,000 and can go much higher.

$1000 for a custom-built good quality computer able to play most games without needing to upgrade for two or three years AND having non-gaming utility as well (including work or school related activities), and then games are ~20-50 USD per game. Steam has frequent sales, and I can get quite frequently get games for cheaper than I can a pack of ten Battle Sisters (with the second crappiest special weapon combinations available). There's no need for me to spend hours painting (ugh) or assembling anything (even my computer takes less time to assemble and plug in than to assemble and glue a squad of infantry), and I don't have to spend money and time traveling to a shop to enjoy it-- yes, that DOES cost money.

Anything compute-related really can't compare to wargaming though, as computers have an insanely higher amount of utility than wargaming miniatures.

The rate of progress with game minimum requirements has slowed. You can build a computer for $500-600 bucks and it'll play anything out there for a good 3-4 years. Crysis is still the most intensive game and it's been out for years. Of course, $500-600 buys a solid miniature collection if you do some bargain shopping.

That said, I could have bought a whole new 40K army with just the amount of money I spent putting lead downrange in the last 2-3 outings. Like Tarkland, I easily find myself dropping $100 on a night out on the town. Dock fees alone could buy me a new army or two every year. My latest custom 1911 was $2300, etc. In the grand scheme of things, miniature wargames are on the low end of the cost spectrum. About the only thing lower is sitting home alone masturbating, and even then you need tissues and lotion.

What perhaps makes it seem expensive is that you're shelling out hundreds of bucks for little pieces of plastic that are worth pennies, and then putting further hours of work into making them playable (much less presentable). And that's really the big limiter in miniature wargames for me. It's not the cost of the models, but the time I have to spend making them tabletop ready.

My computer may have cost me $1200, and the tablet $400, but it's made more money for me and expanded my portfolio so much that it's value is imeasurable. Wargaming has done none of that for me.

It's not that I can't pay for the hobby--By the end of the summer and after university costs, I'll have $5000 just sitting there, more than enough to fulfill my recreational needs. The problem is justifying it. And as it stands, GW's methods of pricing and expansion walk the line of 'unjustifiably expensive.'

Sure, compared to some other hobbies, wargaming is not particularly expensive, but it still is expensive.

I won't! In fact, until next year I'll be in debt* yay me! Or something to that effect.

*(to my family, thankfully, rather than a company that's going to screw me over horribly)

Wow how have the Dakka OT police not come down on this I don't think this is related to codex CSM at ALL this all probably goes in the rants on how much GW charges or how the whole company is EVILLLLLL or something similar...
As to what you said Terminus about 6th maybe drawing on epic I think fafnir was right at least as far as movement trays and all go, They got APOC for that...and besides, if I wanted movement trays I'd play WHFB and run gak over with battalions of Knights Errant What I would like to see tho is a loosening of Squad coherency rules, at least in buildings, just for the sake of realism
EX, to be able to have a team occupying a large building fire from anywhere they can in there, alla Saving Private Ryan. As it stands I need three squads minimum to do that... because they all need to stay within 2", even across levels...It'd be much more dynamic to say that a squad in a building is in coherency, while if even one model leaves they must ALL be in coherency...that'd make it seem like they're really holding a building rather than just oh I put my models here to give my squishy guardsmen the saves of marines

... and you're trying to say OUR posts are off-topic?



There's pretty much nothing that wil ever get me to collect CSMs, but as I said previously in this thread, I'd love a LatD army.

It would actually be pretty cool to have a mixed army that consisted of LatD and CSM.

Apocalypse doesn't really do it for me, as it uses the standard rules and large games can take a really long time to resolve. As far as I'm concerned, Apocalypse is less about large games, and more about using crazy combinations and weird Forge World stuff.

As a 15 year CSM player I must agree. The new codex hella sucks! I think the idea came about because the prior codex was so abusable. (No torches and pitchforks please. Just look at the Iron Warrior list and smell the imported gouda.) Demons were a terrifying weapon; especially the ones attached to the banner that let you auto-summon a unit right where you wanted it, then charge; as your opponent cried, "Not in the face!"
The new codex paradigm seems to be: no wargear lists, only special characters can be cool, and 'simplification'. However, almost every last tidbit of flavor was removed from the list. Demons blow as they got their own army. They took away veteran abilities, but could have kept them ala Berzerkers and Plaguies. Unfortunately, we now have the most basic list in the game. For those who doubt, check out the codex. Almost every entry has the EXACT same list of options: champ for 15, he can have a power weapon or power fist...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wuestenfux wrote:Playable? Yes, but there's no fun to play CSM anymore.

Preach on, my brother! A friend once said that he was terrified to play my army. Not because of the power, but rather because he never knew what I was going to bring. That element of CSM is pretty much gone now. There are units I have simply not seen played anymore, like possessed.

Melissia wrote:... and you're trying to say OUR posts are off-topic?



There's pretty much nothing that wil ever get me to collect CSMs, but as I said previously in this thread, I'd love a LatD army.

Lol so sue me
Eh, I'm not impressed with what I've seen of the LatD...it seems too much like guard without everything that makes guard fun like tanks and guns and...tanks...
I mean I think it'd be cool to have traitor guard allies for the CSM, cause it'd cement their whole "we are the elite and better than you emparah luhving heathens" but I really would rather see Them bring back the uniqueness of the armies, more than "Khorne like CC, Slaneesh is fast, Tzeentch is sorcery, Nurgle wont...die..." especially with more of the SM facet armies, but not on their own
I for one am a firm believer in that whole "they're supposed to be warbands, you would never face a whole legion unless it was the black legion" line of thinking, so I think it's be cooler to see a combined force of traitor guard, world eaters, and word bearors than like, I WILL SPAM BERZERKERS BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD or whatever nonsense I see from twelve year olds at the LA bunker these days...

LatD are mutants, aliens, and the daemon-possessed who are enthralled to the ruinous powers. This could easily include daemon-possessed vehicles (such as the Defiler).

LatD did include Guard tanks, and Defilers.

LatD are a fun army to play and a fan army to build.

Ah, I am sorely mistaken then, you'll have to forgive me all I've seen of LatD is the stuff that was in the old 4th ed rulebook, and to be honest it looked pretty...fail...looked like a bunch of shirtless guardsmen with horns and pokey things and one or two defilers...no flavor AT ALL...so forgive my n008ness in this area
*crawls on knees and does the worship wave*
PLEEEASE FORGIIIIVE MEEEEEEEEEE
Tho some of the traitor guardsmen I've seen have been pretty sick...ironicly its the ones who are chaos undividied...

Terminus wrote:Apocalypse doesn't really do it for me, as it uses the standard rules and large games can take a really long time to resolve. As far as I'm concerned, Apocalypse is less about large games, and more about using crazy combinations and weird Forge World stuff.

Then push for Epic to return. Or better yet, if you like the scale of 40k, just play epic at 40k scale.

Don't ruin my 40k further just because you want a different game then what you bought.

Fafnir wrote:Then push for Epic to return. Or better yet, if you like the scale of 40k, just play epic at 40k scale.

Don't ruin my 40k further just because you want a different game then what you bought.

Epic in 40k scale is exactly what I'm asking for.

Change is inevitable. GW turned fantasy on its head with the latest edition, and by all indications the game has never had such a surge of interest. There's a good chance they will follow the buck and do something similarly outrageous to 40K.

If you want epic in 40k scale, there's nothing stopping you from playing epic in 40k scale.

But if we already have 40k and we already have Epic, why do you want it to change so we only have Epic and Epic?