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Petite Francois wrote:Hello Dizzler,
Sisters of Battle are morally superior to the common citizen. Not because I say, so, GW says so. GW rarely makes moral assessments of it's factions, but when they say the dark eldar are evil, I believe them. When GW says the Sisters are good, I believe that as well. If you choose to imagine this makes them somehow morally blind to their own short comings, well, that's your right to believe.

Actually Sisters of Battle tend to be hyper-sensitive about their own short comings. Again, hence the Repentia. Are you sure you're not confusing them with modern day televangelists? *j/k!*

Show me an example of Sisters burning down a peaceful rural village because of a rumor that there was a Chaos cult operating there? Is there any example of this? Or are you imagining it for the sake of the argument? But I do not say they are perfect, only that they are not willfully evil.

Have a great week! Hope you got some good games in!
---Frankie

I was using the "burn down a village on hearsay" as an example of Sisters going off the deep end, not even noticing that they're so wrapped up in their own moral superiority that they don't notice the harm they're doing.

Other than that, Dronze said what I'm too inarticulate to.

Hello Dronze,
Cultural relativity is an illusion. Yes, I have made the choice to believe that the God Emperor is the one who determines good and evil in the 40K universe. Sisters of Battle are human beings, not eldar, genestealers, or Slaanesh cultists. Therefore, the perspective of the Imperium is what matters to them, and takes precedence over the faiths of the xenos and heretics. A sister of battle is only obligated to do the good that is within her power, and as far as she understands it. So I will clarify, from the perspective of the Imperial Ecclesiarchy, they are good, pure, and faithful. As for what the Ork and the Daemon think of them, I care not.

'Nazi's'? No, the Nazi's didn't do what they did to save the human race. Yes, I will believe the Sisters of Battle are good. In 40K, heretics -do- threaten the survival of humanity. Witches -do- consort with daemons and it has been stated by Games Workshop that whole worlds fall to chaos because of these threats. To allow these to go unchecked is to allow the extinction of mankind.

You oversimplify to make your point. This is not a case of the Sisters killing people because they don't like their favorite color or taste in music. Without the eccleciarchy to unite humanity in a common belief, the Empire would have no rallying point in this twilight of the Universe. The Sisters are not wantonly slaughtering people for trivial nothings!

You say 'they kill those that do not believe as they do...that doesn't make them Good, either'. I would suggest that depends on what they believe. If they believe the Emperor is God, that humanity must survive, that morality is a good thing, then those that oppose their beliefs are evil.

If I believe rape is wrong, and someone does not believe as I do (a mongol raider perhaps), and he starts raping someone, if I kill him, I dare to believe I am standing for righteousness. If I shoot him 'cause he's not white, sure, that makes me evil. And that is why I say, the Sisters are justified based on what they believe and on the crimes of those who oppose those beliefs.

Well, that is what I think. But I can understand what you are saying is applicable to our real world. I just don't think it applies to 40K and the Imperium.

--- Be well,
Frankie

Dronze wrote:I dunno about you, but if I set fire to anyone who didn't follow the same religion as myself, or started on a campaign of genocide and zealotry, I think I would be branded as evil, don't you? The name these things are done in serve only as justification to those doing it.

The reason setting fire to people for following a different religion or being a different race is evil isn't because it's ethic clensing, it's because setting fire to anyone without legitimate justification is evil.

The problem is that in a fantasy setting, sometimes it is justified. Anybody who would support the actions of Nurgle, the passive-aggressive, abusive husband of the universe, is evil. The fact that they're barracking for a powerful warp entity instead of some mortal lowlife like Charles Manson or Ted Bundy doesn't change that.

Petite Francois wrote:
Cultural relativity is an illusion. Yes, I have made the choice to believe that the God Emperor is the one who determines good and evil in the 40K universe.

Reread what you just typed. I highlighted it for you. Now about this statement, the only positive thing I can say about it is that at least you admit it is a choice as opposed to fact.

Petite Francois wrote: Sisters of Battle are human beings, not eldar, genestealers, or Slaanesh cultists. Therefore, the perspective of the Imperium is what matters to them, and takes precedence over the faiths of the xenos and heretics. A sister of battle is only obligated to do the good that is within her power, and as far as she understands it. So I will clarify, from the perspective of the Imperial Ecclesiarchy, they are good, pure, and faithful. As for what the Ork and the Daemon think of them, I care not.

A)SoB are models, little toy soldiers that we kids can let our imagination run free with and play "pretend" with according to our tastes, creative abilities and desires.

B)You seem to be arguing here, that if a corrupt political entity declares you infallable, any abuse of power or crime you commit is not evil. Are you sure that you want to make that argument, especially in light of what you say in the next sentence?

C)So blindly following orders makes you good? We will save this for the next line down.

Petite Francois wrote:'Nazi's'? No, the Nazi's didn't do what they did to save the human race. Yes, I will believe the Sisters of Battle are good. In 40K, heretics -do- threaten the survival of humanity. Witches -do- consort with daemons and it has been stated by Games Workshop that whole worlds fall to chaos because of these threats. To allow these to go unchecked is to allow the extinction of mankind.

A)The average nazi soldier just followed orders, by your previous argument they would be good and pure.

B)You left out the Peaceful xenos that are killed just for being different, and the humans that are purged for working with aliens to survive when the Imperium neglects and leaves them to die. Your argument indicates that peace would be a threat to humanity, which means that the SoB wold have to purge peace.

Petite Francois wrote:You oversimplify to make your point. This is not a case of the Sisters killing people because they don't like their favorite color or taste in music. Without the eccleciarchy to unite humanity in a common belief, the Empire would have no rallying point in this twilight of the Universe. The Sisters are not wantonly slaughtering people for trivial nothings!

Are you sure about this? Have you read all of the back stories pertaining to the sisters?

Remember, If an inquisitor gets it in his head that a planetary govenor has become corrupted he can call for the sisters to purge the capital city or go as far as to declare exterminatus and have the SoB burn those individuals trying to flee for thier lives.

Petite Francois wrote:You say 'they kill those that do not believe as they do...that doesn't make them Good, either'. I would suggest that depends on what they believe. If they believe the Emperor is God, that humanity must survive, that morality is a good thing, then those that oppose their beliefs are evil.

And if they believe in working together peacefully and equatably? If they are just out on the fringe trying to survive?

Petite Francois wrote:If I believe rape is wrong, and someone does not believe as I do (a mongol raider perhaps), and he starts raping someone, if I kill him, I dare to believe I am standing for righteousness. If I shoot him 'cause he's not white, sure, that makes me evil. And that is why I say, the Sisters are justified based on what they believe and on the crimes of those who oppose those beliefs.

So, being an alien is = rape.

Thing is that the SoB do exactly that, they kill those who are different simply because they are different. To argue otherwise is to close yoour eyes as to the dark nature of the universe that the game is set in.

I'm just going to work on this little bit for now.

focusedfire wrote:

A)The average nazi soldier just followed orders, by your previous argument they would be good and pure.

German Soldiers weren't all members of the Nazi Party, common mistake. Your history may need a quick brushover.

B)You left out the Peaceful xenos that are killed just for being different, and the humans that are purged for working with aliens to survive when the Imperium neglects and leaves them to die. Your argument indicates that peace would be a threat to humanity, which means that the SoB wold have to purge peace.

Er...no it doesn't. You see, the Imperium is in a state of constant war, so peace is never going to be a problem. Now, if Ghandi the 40th or something started preaching passive resistance (which would mean the Imperium would fail against pretty much all races) then yes the SoB would have to get rid of him and his teachings becuase they pose a threat to the existence of the Imperium. Not because it preaches peace, but becuase trying to make peace would lead to destruction.

Dear FocusedFire,
Though my pride and ego would like to discuss this a bit more, it is occurring to me that I have been party to hi-jacking this post. I should know better than to discuss ethics and morality on the internet, but I thought it safe in a role play about the Sisters of Battle. This conversation is getting too close to a serious debate on real life ethics for my tastes, but I'd rather paint than get into a heavy and ponderous discussion that neither of us would enjoy.

I will simply make my closing statement a quote from the latest incarnation of the Witch Hunter codex: "The Sisters of Battle are shining examples of all that is good about humanity, the pinnacle of faith, devotion and purity." Like you said, it's a game, so, that's all the statement is worth

To the original poster, have you seen this model? If you don't mind using a non-GW model, it has some potential for your fallen Sisters, don't you think? Maybe a character?

http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity_ENG/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=119:juana-de-arco&catid=39:panoceania&Itemid=148

If I stepped on any toes, sorry about that. Though we disagree, we are all gamers, and that matters to me!

--- Frankie

Emperors Faithful wrote:

focusedfire wrote:

A)The average nazi soldier just followed orders, by your previous argument they would be good and pure.

German Soldiers weren't all members of the Nazi Party, common mistake. Your history may need a quick brushover.

I never said that they were all nazis, You might want to reread my statement and those made prior concerning nazis. The subject had been brought up and if I had used the words " average german soldier" instead of average nazi soldier I would have then been equating the two. I chose my words carefully because I did not want to imply such. Kinda ironic, huh?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

focusedfire wrote:B)You left out the Peaceful xenos that are killed just for being different, and the humans that are purged for working with aliens to survive when the Imperium neglects and leaves them to die. Your argument indicates that peace would be a threat to humanity, which means that the SoB wold have to purge peace.

Er...no it doesn't. You see, the Imperium is in a state of constant war, so peace is never going to be a problem. Now, if Ghandi the 40th or something started preaching passive resistance (which would mean the Imperium would fail against pretty much all races) then yes the SoB would have to get rid of him and his teachings becuase they pose a threat to the existence of the Imperium. Not because it preaches peace, but becuase trying to make peace would lead to destruction.

Your arguing symantics. The policies described effectively preclude the possibility of peaceful co-existence. As such the imperium and the inquisition, especially, have declared war on the concept of peace.

But this is a topic for another thread

Catch you later

Petite Francois wrote:Dear FocusedFire,
Though my pride and ego would like to discuss this a bit more, it is occurring to me that I have been party to hi-jacking this post. I should know better than to discuss ethics and morality on the internet, but I thought it safe in a role play about the Sisters of Battle. This conversation is getting too close to a serious debate on real life ethics for my tastes, but I'd rather paint than get into a heavy and ponderous discussion that neither of us would enjoy.

I will simply make my closing statement a quote from the latest incarnation of the Witch Hunter codex: "The Sisters of Battle are shining examples of all that is good about humanity, the pinnacle of faith, devotion and purity." Like you said, it's a game, so, that's all the statement is worth

To the original poster, have you seen this model? If you don't mind using a non-GW model, it has some potential for your fallen Sisters, don't you think? Maybe a character?

http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity_ENG/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=119:juana-de-arco&catid=39:panoceania&Itemid=148

If I stepped on any toes, sorry about that. Though we disagree, we are all gamers, and that matters to me!

--- Frankie

@Petite Francois- No problem, but just an FYI, I don't mind the discussions. This is because I don't take them personally, rather they are interesting windows into the various differing personal philosoplies that people embrace.

And no, you have not stepped on any toes of which I am aware. Rather, you have been the personification of proper form and courtesy through the written word.

May the wind be always at your back,

Later

AlexHolker wrote:The reason setting fire to people for following a different religion or being a different race is evil isn't because it's ethic clensing, it's because setting fire to anyone without legitimate justification is evil.

Except for when they kill mutants for being too divergent from good human stock.

While Sebastian Thor himself was a pacifist, he only practiced pacifism within the Imperium. He still sent the six founding Sisters out on their crusades.

Petite Francois wrote:Hello Dronze,
Cultural relativity is an illusion. Yes, I have made the choice to believe that the God Emperor is the one who determines good and evil in the 40K universe. Sisters of Battle are human beings, not eldar, genestealers, or Slaanesh cultists. Therefore, the perspective of the Imperium is what matters to them, and takes precedence over the faiths of the xenos and heretics. A sister of battle is only obligated to do the good that is within her power, and as far as she understands it. So I will clarify, from the perspective of the Imperial Ecclesiarchy, they are good, pure, and faithful. As for what the Ork and the Daemon think of them, I care not.

What I'm reading here is not that cultural relativity is an illusion, but that it does exist, and you're merely choosing to ignore it, and take the imperial viewpoint on the matter. While I could care less about that point, it also leads you to being inherantly biased against a simple, neutral observation... the fact that "good" and "evil" as objective concepts within the 40k universe are, at best, dependant upon the viewpoint of the observer, and at worst, nonexistant.

The choice to ignore this doesn't change the fact that it is, for all intents and purposes, true. Does the lack of an objective, universal moral structure within the game preclude things such as malice or contempt? Not at all... The Imperium would sooner sacrifice the entirety of their own holdings than to lose Holy Terra to the hands of xenos, and would gladly exterminate entire civilian populations of their own to achieve this.

'Nazi's'? No, the Nazi's didn't do what they did to save the human race.

If the Nazis didn't do what they did to save the human race, then what do you call the concept of "master race", or the cleansing of "impure" blood from the gene pool?

I'd call that an attempt at salvation, no matter how misguided. They believed they were most fit to inherit the planet, and took the needed steps to bring them to their vision of an Aryan utopia. You seem to refuse to look at situations objectively from a neutral, third-party perspective, and for that reason, you seem to be missing the point.

Hello DakkaDakka!

Flaming_Spider, have you seen these?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440336a&prodId=prod1110275

I don't know if that's supposed to be a Sister of Battle or not, personally I think a Sister of Battle would commit suicide before becoming a Dark Eldar plaything. But the head looks like a Sister, maybe you can use it for conversions?

Dronze: So sorry, I disagree with your interpretations of my points, but that is fine. I will refrain from continuing this discussion, but thanks for your input.

Have a great week everyone!
Emperor bless and cherish you!
Frankie

I'd say anyone complaining that it doesn't follow the story that GW set up in the fluff should just pack up their SoB models and leave them at home. After all, they're witch hunters right? Why are they going out and fighting other marine chapters, orks, necrons, or the tau? How does that make sense in your fluff? Do you refuse to play a list that includes Eldrad? He's dead in the story right? So shouldn't you be raging about that too?

Also, as a comical note, I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw someone posting that they weren't discouraging someone from making this army just after saying that everyone (which I assume included themselves) would think they were a pervy loser... talk about self contradiction.

edited for pun: The only time anyone should care about "canon" in 40k is when it shoots blast templates.

SamplesoWoopass wrote: After all, they're witch hunters right?

You know that odd feeling you get when in a movie someone mentions the name of the film as par and part of their dialogue?

Codex name aside, the Sisters are far more then 'witch hunters'.
They are the army of the Ecclesiarchy. They do common and constant purity checks across the Imperium, they conduct the wars of faith, they are defenders of almost every shrine, church and cathedral in the Imperium, they are often at the fore-front of any defence of a planet because they were there already, they will attack and fight Marine chapters who have turned from the emperor and even attempted to bring the Space Wolves in to answer for their mutations.
That's right. The Ecclesiarchy wanted to question a 1st founding chapter about their loyalty and genetic purity.

For Sisters not to fight someone is a larger departure of fluff then fighting them.

They even conduct live-fire training on occasion with other orders of Sisters so you even have fighting themselves covered.

focusedfire wrote:
I never said that they were all nazis, You might want to reread my statement and those made prior concerning nazis. The subject had been brought up and if I had used the words " average german soldier" instead of average nazi soldier I would have then been equating the two. I chose my words carefully because I did not want to imply such. Kinda ironic, huh?

I would have understood if you'd said "Average SS Soldier", it was my bad that I assumed you were lumping the German Armed Forces in with the Nazi Party, which were seperate entities. The SS however were not, and did have their own troops.

Your arguing symantics. The policies described effectively preclude the possibility of peaceful co-existence. As such the imperium and the inquisition, especially, have declared war on the concept of peace.

But this is a topic for another thread

Catch you later

Sorry, can't let you have the last word here.
Where does the Imperium actually ban the idea of peace? I don't mean "Peace" as in diplomatic relations with Xenos, as co-existence is show to lead to enslavement such as the times of the Dark Age of Technology, I mean peace as in "Not at War". It's GW that says "There can be no peace." I'm not sure that this is an Imperial mandate to any extent, in most cases they seem to be responsive to alien incursions (Damocles Crusade) not agressive.

edited for pun: The only time anyone should care about "canon" in 40k is when it shoots blast templates.

I want those 5 seconds of my life back.

SamplesoWoopass wrote:I'd say anyone complaining that it doesn't follow the story that GW set up in the fluff should just pack up their SoB models and leave them at home. After all, they're witch hunters right? Why are they going out and fighting other marine chapters, orks, necrons, or the tau?

Necrons: Revenge for Sanctuary 101.
Orks: Because they want to fight YOU.
Tau: Spreads heathen beliefs, need to be cleansed so that the human population remains pure.
Eldrad: "Counts As".

You have no idea what you're talking about.

^ This is correct. Right place, right time makes a lot of difference.

What, you think the SoB are just going to say, "Oh, wait. These are Xenos! Not heretics! Let's pack up and go ho- AUGH WHAT IS THAT ORK CHOPPA DOING IN MY SPINE!"

Xenos don't take time outs to make sure they're fighting the "right" enemy. Why should any particular branch of the Imperium?

^ Lol.

I still wish GW sold a bitz pack simply called "female Heads". Give us 10 heads for 8 bucks and I'll buy.

Then I can make Sobs out of space marines :3

*snicker* Or just mak them into FSMs and piss off more people.

Melissia wrote:*snicker* Or just mak them into FSMs and piss off more people.

I really don't understand why people get a wild hair up their arse whenever FSM's are even mentioned. Seems like a cool idea...I'd probably add a junk load of purity seals and tabards and all that jazz, just to show them off as being clearly SoBS.

Arguing the morality based off the imaginary fluff of a table-top toy soldier game. Wow, really? Just another reason why I need to drop this as a hobby so I can avoid all the hypersensitive nerd rage. Next someone will be discussing the economic and political implications of Monopoly.

Rymafyr wrote:Arguing the morality based off the imaginary fluff of a table-top toy soldier game. Wow, really? Just another reason why I need to drop this as a hobby so I can avoid all the hypersensitive nerd rage. Next someone will be discussing the economic and political implications of Monopoly.

Boardwalk is in a prime location and the property value will only go up!!!

You say it's possible for them to fight the different armies on the table top, so it's okay (well, except for marines really. That'll never make sense... as an aside, do you get angry when USM armies fight each other?) anyway... It's already been deemed possible for an SoB to fall to chaos. So, why do you get so pissed off when someone uses another army that is entirely possible, for there to be multiple SoB's who fell into chaos.

Also, the codex pretty clearly states Eldrad... So I guess you need to go write an angry letter to GW and tell them to fix that!

I sure hope you never play orks on a table full of ork terrain... Idk how you'll try to explain why the sobs went to an ork planet instead of staying home and doing the whole Spanish Inquisition thing on their own planets.

SamplesoWoopass wrote:You say it's possible for them to fight the different armies on the table top, so it's okay (well, except for marines really. That'll never make sense... as an aside, do you get angry when USM armies fight each other?) anyway... It's already been deemed possible for an SoB to fall to chaos. So, why do you get so pissed off when someone uses another army that is entirely possible, for there to be multiple SoB's who fell into chaos.

Also, the codex pretty clearly states Eldrad... So I guess you need to go write an angry letter to GW and tell them to fix that!

I sure hope you never play orks on a table full of ork terrain... Idk how you'll try to explain why the sobs went to an ork planet instead of staying home and doing the whole Spanish Inquisition thing on their own planets.

A lack of imagination is a horrible thing, sir. Use yours, it's more fun that way!

1) Sisters will fight Space Marines when and if the Inquisition deems them in some way heretical or if the Ecclesiarchy's got beef with them. This is fluffy. See Sisters v Space Wolves.

2) Sisters on an Ork planet is just fine.
a. Sisters chased a small heretic cell to a planet infested with Orks.
b. Sisters are on an Imperial planet, but that planet (like many in the galaxy) is infested with Orks.
c. Orks crashed the party on an Imperial planet with Sisters stationed there.
d. Orks attack a fringe outpost that Sisters are using as a springboard in the latest war funded by the Ecclesiarchy.
e. Ork spores bud on an Imperial planet, and the Sisters are the closest (and flamethroweriest) force, so they get the job of putting down the Ork uprising before it gets ugly.

I could go on.

Samus_aran115 wrote:^ Lol.

I still wish GW sold a bitz pack simply called "female Heads". Give us 10 heads for 8 bucks and I'll buy.

Then I can make Sobs out of space marines :3

Hi Samus_aran115,

These aren't GW, but would they be useful to you?

http://www.thewarstore.com/product53090.html

They have Amazon heads in Greek helmets too, might be an interesting look for alternate Sisters of Battle?

--- Frankie

haha, if imaginations are fun and I should use mine then why can't I use it to say chaos sisters is okay?

I agree with sisters vs SW, but not vs USM led by Calgar

SamplesoWoopass wrote:haha, if imaginations are fun and I should use mine then why can't I use it to say chaos sisters is okay?

I agree with sisters vs SW, but not vs USM led by Calgar

Didn't say you couldn't.

Oh, I must have had you confused with one of the people going "NOOO don't do it because I don't think if follows the story"

Hey I've been pro-Chaos Sisters since the beginning of this thread.

My argument in that case (and in the case of my response to you) is that fluff is extremely flexible.

You can logically make just about anything fluffy. It can be done. All it takes is some imagination and the will to make it work.

That's the cool thing about 40k.

Sweet fething Christ. A SoB thread should really not be this trolled and Godwinized. /facepalm The hostility I've seen toward this guy and his army concept is nothing short of shameful.

OT: I think it's a cool idea, and might make for some pretty great conversions. If a legion of the Adeptus Astartes could be seduced by Slaanesh there's really no reason why a bunch of Battle Sisters couldn't be.

Do whatever you want with your models and remember, haters gonna hate.

I'd actually be really interested to see someone pull of a Sisters who have fallen to Nurgle force, just as its not the sterotype 'Slaanesh' army most folks fall into.

My wife keeps muttering about doing a Tzeentch themed force, but not before she does loyalist ones.


As to the Black Library not being canon, I see plenty of folks gnashing their teeth and hoping it not to be so, but these are books and graphic novels that have been sanctioned by GW.
Does anyone seriously think the Black Library stuff gets released without someone at the Ivory tower, going 'Yep, love it, two thumbs up and release it to the masses.'

If it's got a GW stamp on it, it is canon, unless they have released an updated version of the same story, idea that overwrites it.

Needed to get my rant on there, as I see many people saying Black Library should be ignored, but unfortauntely for them, it is canon, and then need to deal with it.


I'd also point out that faith does not protect you 100% from corruption, in fact those with faith who fall can be all the more dangerous because of it. Just ask the Word Bearers about that one.