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The direction that Mantic has taken wrt marketing/PR tell me that there is someone higher up than where Ronnie was that has control of those areas.

Now that he has free reign, we can lament that Mantic is showing us what GW could have done.

There is still some top-end turnover that would need to happen at GW to change the mindset they have for marketing their product.

It is a very different theory. GW is actively courting the flavor of the month codex creep chasers. Because of that, they don't want anyone to know what is coming next- otherwise you might not buy this month's obsession.

Mantic is marketing the ease and quality of their products- which appeals to both a new player, or an old player adding a new unit. Their free rules is a stroke of genius, which will garner their good will for months to come. The lower quality and lower cost rank and file miniature is a cunning niche. GW might have better sculpts- but will you notice when there are fifty of them coming across the board at you in a 2 foot square block?

Mantic has added my heart, and my dollars, to their rank and file. I can't wait until they branch out into their own races, or go Sci-fi.

While Mantic's minis might not be as good on the whole as GW's, they're quite a bit better than the first single pose plastics GW put out many moons ago. I see promise in their figs that if they survive long enough to start developing their lines and improving their models then they will be an exciting alternative to GW.

IMO they are making up for it in other ways with the way the bases are designed and the topic of this thread - free rules. It is very smart considering one of the biggest detractors for getting new players into games of this sort is the initial investment cost.

I am excited to see their rule set. GW never seems to get it quite right. They make some things better and then botch something else.

Also if the rules don't suit, so what?
you ain't lost anything.

You still have a bunch of workable minis.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:You really are being silly proboscis picking monkey..

Yeah thanks.

Secondly: As has been stated over and over again, many other companies provide information about forthcoming releases. It is standard practice in all forms of consumable goods. Model companies produce annual release schedules.

Who does? Annual release schedules only work with a new model so they, basically, remodel an existing line and re-release it so you can buy the new stuff? So, who's being ripped off then? Imagine an annual re-release of Orks or IG! There's dissent now, but in order to have an annual release schedule you need a new model, so imagine the uproar!

GW tell you about forthoming releases, they always do, but only when they are ready which involves a remarkable amount of work to get to the shelves.

Mantic have been doing just the opposite.
The dwarves range have had pictures and videos out for ages. Interesting when GW's former head of marketing can manage good PR and marketing when the former can't.
Again, GW's loss when someone of that calbre leaves the marketing department. They obviously haven't got a replacement yet.

Of course Mantic have been telling the world about the dwarves. It's a brand new game system, they have to tell the world what they're doing otherwise there would be no hype. They have no current model lines to devalue!!

GW have 40 different races across 3 main lines!! They cannot simply churn them out plus look at re-invigorating stuff such as IoB they have just released. Of course Mantic are releasing lots in one go. They have just started! Once race of people would be boring wouldn't it?

Me, being silly? Don't think so. Please keep personal comments to yourself.

http://www.airfix.com/new-for-2010/

Note it contains both new models and rereleases.
Every other model manufacturer, makes such schedules. They cannot always be wholly fulfilled but the hobbyist knows what to expect and roughly when.

One only has to look to the release of the Island of Blood to show what you say to be misguided. Out of respect for the OP will decline to comment further. Your arguments don't hold up to scrutiny but to answer them would take the thread further OT.

Calling someone a silly monkey is hardly making a personal comment btw. Is a figure of speech with jocular overtones. If you took offense I apologise as non was intended.

I assumed it was merely a reference to his avatar pic.

Me too....

Yup that was the inspiration, it being a proboscis monkey.

Now if I really wanted to get personal ....

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Yup that was the inspiration, it being a proboscis monkey.

Now if I really wanted to get personal ....

Despite the similarities I actually believe his avatar is that of a troll.

I love this idea of free rules. I've been looking for a fantasy system to start for awhile. Between the nice (IMO) undead units and the rules, I think Mantic will soon have some of my money....

And like someone said, if the rules don't work out, I didn't lose any money on that and I have a neat proxy-able army.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:http://www.airfix.com/new-for-2010/

Note it contains both new models and rereleases.
Calling someone a silly monkey is hardly making a personal comment btw. Is a figure of speech with jocular overtones. If you took offense I apologise as non was intended.

It is a Troll rather than a monkey, and yes, that is how the flame wars start, just stopping it before it got out of hand. The link contains details for new models and re-releases? Which indicates new stuff and stuff that had been discontinued which has been resurrected or has been repackaged to make it look new. GW stuff can't work like that.

It isn't about my argument not holding under scrutiny, it's about seeing what's in front of your own eyes. You can't re-release something that is already on the shelves! Plus, releasing a new airfix kit is far, far different from releasing game models and isn't a viable comparison.

Is anyone else having problems signing up for the newsletter on mantic games? I think Zombie week might yield more than one regiment being fielded in a GW army!

No of course not, my bad.

Mantic games are not comparable. Airfix are totally disimilar No one is comparible to the divine GW. It was right before my eyes all the while.
GW are a company whose production methods, marketing and pricing strategies are wholly unique.

They are immortal and infallible producers of the world's greatest consumables and their models are not plastic but made from fairy dust. They can't possibly say what or when they are going to release in fear of the floods caused by customers peeing themselves with uncontrolled excitement.

Ye gods preserve us!
The Airfix site has 2010 releases

New Tool
Aircraft 1:72 Scale
A01071A - Spitfire Mk1a
A03080 - Messerschmitt Bf110 C/D
A03081 - Messerschmitt Bf110 E
A03082 - North American F-86F Sabre
A03083 - Canadair Mk.4 Sabre
A03085 - BAe Hawk T1
A04050 - BAe Harrier GR9

Note NEW TOOL
Sprues have been taken to Model Shows. Photos of sprues have appeared on forums. Trevor Snowden head of Airfix is there happily talking to customers and letting them take sprue shots. They are plastic consumables. Same as the Mantic Dwarves.

Mantic have been discussing and showing their upcoming releases for ages. There is no earthly reason why GW cannot do the same. Give it a rest you silly troll.

Not to mention Mantic let dakka help name a new unit that the had not released at that point.

sonofruss wrote:Not to mention Mantic let dakka help name a new unit that the had not released at that point.

Wait what? When did this happen? Did I miss a cool opportunity?

Elmodiddly wrote:
It is a Troll rather than a monkey, and yes, that is how the flame wars start, just stopping it before it got out of hand. The link contains details for new models and re-releases? Which indicates new stuff and stuff that had been discontinued which has been resurrected or has been repackaged to make it look new. GW stuff can't work like that.

Except that GW has done exactly that. They reduced the Cadian and Catachan boxes from 20 to 10 men, exact same models, and re-leased them. When they repackaged a lot of WFB elite metal infantry into boxes they did a re-release. A lot of the direct order only stuff are old models that are made available again, which seems, you know, like they were released again. Or perhaps re-released.

It isn't about my argument not holding under scrutiny, it's about seeing what's in front of your own eyes. You can't re-release something that is already on the shelves! Plus, releasing a new airfix kit is far, far different from releasing game models and isn't a viable comparison.

So, we're supposed to see what's in front of our eyes, yet you're claiming it's impossible to re-release a product that is already in the market. So you can't rebrand, re-package, re-price, re-label, or even slightly modify a product that it's commerce? It seems that companies do that all the time. I'm guessing airfix, which has a ludicrously huge range, does product runs but not continuous production, meaning some kits might not always be available to wholesalers. That's the other thing to remember about GW: it does a lot of it's sales directly to consumers, or at wholesale to retailers. Most other manufacturers of pretty much anything sell almost entirely to distributors.

I'd like to hear more about how a box of plastic sprues is different from a box of plastic sprues that has rules in a codex. It seems to me that the two are pretty similar from a manufacturing point of view.

Did someone sign up for the newsletter? I think I have problems with it and I want to read the beta... Is it released this weekend?

I am delighted with the news. I want to see the new rules (and in addition, I believe that Cavatore is one of the best designers of rules at present).

I'm signed up for the newsletter. They said the rules will be out this weekend for the open beta, once they're done with Game Week.

Of course, if they miss this date that they have foolishly committed to, I will raeg for days on the internet. Or, you know, I will remain eager for the promised product.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:No of course not, my bad.

Mantic games are not comparable. Airfix are totally disimilar No one is comparible to the divine GW. It was right before my eyes all the while.
GW are a company whose production methods, marketing and pricing strategies are wholly unique.

Mantic have been discussing and showing their upcoming releases for ages. There is no earthly reason why GW cannot do the same. Give it a rest you silly troll.

Before we start, enough of the "Silly troll" stuff. There is no need and in order to act mature you need to step away from the infantile trolling behaviour.

GW are not unique, but are far, far different from Airfix. Airfix make a model sprue. They box it. They send it out. That's it. There is no further support required apart from building instructions in the box. It does nothing else after you have built it They stay the same and are in genreal only modded by undercarriage up/down, 2 missile options.

There's not even real photo's, just a bit of artwork which gets updated every year to make it look modern which is why it get re-released often, it's just a new box. In general, (yes, there are always exceptions) you'd buy one Harrier GR4. It then gets hung from the ceiling by thread of acts as a dust magnet on a desk.

GW stuff involves buying 2 maybe 3 of one unit type, Necron Warriors, SM's etc. Then you can do anything with it, remodel it, different paintjobs, poses, weapons, bases etc.

If it is a new model character it has new rules, new uses and paintwork all of which are playtested for many, many hours beforehand, rules written, models professionallly painted and articles written to include the new rules, play styles etc. The models are also coverted to show the many different ways it can be used, all to entice you to buy and use.

THEN you play with them!

GW cannot tell you it's releasing a new model many, many months before it is up for release. It is bad for business as, if it is a replacement model, it instantly devalues the current range on the shelves. This is stuff they have already paid to be made, boxed and shipped. This is money that cannot get back. Their profits go down.

At the moment they are concentrating on IoB. Until that it up and running and the planned adverts, articles, pictures have done the rounds they don't have enough space to do other things. Imagine White Dwarf 500 pages for one month then nothing for the rest of the year because you all know whats coming! There is also the fact that GW do not have dedicated staff who only work, model and write rules for one race. They all multi-task, being involved in different races at different times so therefore cannot, quite literally, devote all their time to all facets, so a business strategy has to be developed.

Mantic have released all their model ranges because they only have 3 and are not replacing any other line!

Airfix are a completely different business with a different business strategy.

Back on track, the Mantic rules set is a beta and having seen the videos where the rules were discussed this will play a lot different to other game systems. Is anyone going to the Open Day in October?

Elmodiddly wrote:

There's not even real photo's, just a bit of artwork which gets updated every year to make it look modern which is why it get re-released often, it's just a new box. In general, (yes, there are always exceptions) you'd buy one Harrier GR4. It then gets hung from the ceiling by thread of acts as a dust magnet on a desk.

GW stuff involves buying 2 maybe 3 of one unit type, Necron Warriors, SM's etc. Then you can do anything with it, remodel it, different paintjobs, poses, weapons, bases etc.

This is only possible with GW kits. Ork players definitely have not been doing the very same thing to Airfix models, dollar store toys, or any other thing that strikes their fancy.

Elmodiddly wrote:
If it is a new model character it has new rules, new uses and paintwork all of which are playtested for many, many hours beforehand, rules written, models professionallly painted and articles written to include the new rules, play styles etc. The models are also coverted to show the many different ways it can be used, all to entice you to buy and use.

THEN you play with them!

This is a good point. Airfix would not tell you how to use their models. The rules development would certainly take time, and posting specifics would be unwise. I highly doubt that they do not have a game plan for the year, however. The information of what armies are being updated this year could be released without any harm to their business.

Elmodiddly wrote:
GW cannot tell you it's releasing a new model many, many months before it is up for release. It is bad for business as, if it is a replacement model, it instantly devalues the current range on the shelves. This is stuff they have already paid to be made, boxed and shipped. This is money that cannot get back. Their profits go down.

I have three counter-examples for this assertion- The new Daemonettes were reviled when they were shown. Hordes of Chaos players rushed out to buy up the current models, before they were discontinued.

The Cadian and Catachans, went up in price per guardsmen when they were repackaged. At that point, they were bought up very quickly.

Ork Boyz went the same way- they positively spiked in demand once word of the new codex came out, and the idea of a 10 man boyz set. Likewise, demand increased for the old Rollerskate Trukks when the new True LOS rules were announced by a certain type of gamer.

Elmodiddly wrote:

At the moment they are concentrating on IoB. Until that it up and running and the planned adverts, articles, pictures have done the rounds they don't have enough space to do other things. Imagine White Dwarf 500 pages for one month then nothing for the rest of the year because you all know whats coming! There is also the fact that GW do not have dedicated staff who only work, model and write rules for one race. They all multi-task, being involved in different races at different times so therefore cannot, quite literally, devote all their time to all facets, so a business strategy has to be developed.

Imagine, if you will, a world where we know what GW is releasing this year. White Dwarf is no longer filled with vague hints, product announcements, or advertisements for the latest and greatest. Instead, it morphs to a sort of developer's journal, where we see the next big thing a sprue, or model at a time, and hear about the theory behind the army as it is developed. People become emotionally invested in the product, and pore over it looking for rules hints and clues. Suddenly, the magazine reeks of quality content and it has something to say. Personally, I think subscriptions would increase.

You are right about the way GW operates now. But they don't have to operate that way. They could be so much more.

You guys are annoying about GW's business model vs Mantic's.

Have fun over there and give us a break

Keep this thread about the RULES, especially news about them.

Elmo was just joshing you man.

But if you insist on talking gibberish and trolling you have no right to complain.

So you are saying it is okay for GW to sell stuff at full price then spring a release and possibly make obsolete the kit/codex that you have just paid full whack for?
You are also implying that no other business has this problem of what to do when a new range is about to be launched. This is blatently false.
Every manufacturer faces this. Most however elect to preview their wares and discount surplus stock to shift it.

On the above list, The Harrier GR9 is the first kit by anyone of the type in 1/72 scale. Never been done before.
They have never before released the Canadian produced Sabre. The American Sabre AFAIK has never been done other than when Airfix was owned by Heller and used the latter's mould. The Hawk was released as a Red Arrows aircraft replacing an earlier mould.. I believe this one will also have different markings and an extra sprue for underwing stores not carried by the display team, so will indeed have a new piccy on the lid.

Not sure which of the two Bf110's was the old kit but it has now been replaced, with a new tooling, plus a boxing of the NEW TOOL of the other sub-type.
The Spitfire also has replaced a fairly recent kit.
New Tool means just that, not a reboxing.

That means most of the new kits replace old toolings which have been re released since the takeover by Hornby. Kits that were still on the shelves.

What have have rules got to to with sales and PR. (Rhetorical question - no need to answer)
They make plastic kits. GW makes plastic kits. Whether you choose to play with them afterwards is entirely up to the owner.
It doesn't stop Mantic as has been repeatedly said. Anima Tactics figures get previewed on the Cipher forum

This argument started because I said Mantic are doing things right IMHO. If you disagree fine. I don't give a monkey's (turn of phrase before you get upset again)

It will be interesting to see what happens in the future when Mantics moulds need replacing/models updating. My money is on Ronnie NOT following the GW method.
As you have yourself acknowledged the guy is on the ball where packaging and marketing are concerned. Long may it continue, Unlike this argument. I too am tired of it and am heartly sick of the pathetic excuses made on behalf of GW.
They can take their clandestine behaviour and shove it in their stupid black boxes.

I apologise again to the OP for going OT and this is the last I will say on the matter. I seriously suggest that you let it rest too.

It's called a discussion Poipo, it's a shame that Chibi has chosen to turn it onto something else entirely. Shame.

It depends upon when Mantic decide when the weekend starts doesn't it. The rules could be up for download this afternoon or tomorrow morning.

Does not matter when really but can't wait to see how they tackle stuff when you start from scratch. The Youtube vids gave lots of clues and with the inclusion of different rules for tournaments such as chess clock style play it's going to break new ground methinks.

Chibi - Apple do exactly that. The old iPod range was on sale at full price to the minute the new range was announced last week.

Mantic are in a different place to GW, starting from scratch is very different to supporting an ongoing model-gaming line. They can, and have to, do things differently to an existing games company.

Airfix is an apples and oranges comparison as there isnt an ongoing, 20yr old game involved with their models. Both making plastic models /= same market segment, weirdly enough.

Anyways, according to the Mantic Games and Alessio's Facebook pages, the rules will be sent via Mantic Newsletter at 6pm GMT. A mere hour and five minutes away.

I just got it!

PDF download incoming..

Play the Kings of War Beta now - Free Rules Inside! - http://eepurl.com/2K9Y

Rules and an army list as well. The rules are 12 pages, which seems long enough to be comprehensive, but not ridiculous. Reading starts... now!

Downloaded and quick read..

I think this could be a really fun little game. Units stay on the table without loss until they completely route off the table.

However, they urge beta testers to try to play... without giving any army unit statistics or costs? No Army list I found.

Is this info on a website somewhere?

EDIT.. WHY yes it is.. erg.. my fault for jumping right to the rules..

Elmodiddly wrote:It's called a discussion Poipo, it's a shame that Chibi has chosen to turn it onto something else entirely. Shame.[/qoute]



I have only raised a point of opinion. You have turned it into something else, and have constantly refused to drop the subject so you are at least equally culpable.
At least I had the courtesy to apologise to the Op
Now you are flaming, which after what you said is damned hypocritical.
I only visited this thread to see if anyone had annouced the newsletter. Will now unsubscribe again

If you have anything you want to say send me a PM instead of snivelling. Now I am not joking.

re iPods
Thanks for the correction. I was not aware of Apple's tactics, but I still fail to see how selling items at full price on the eve of obsolescence is ethically sound, or a good way of winning goodwill. Which was the point at which I came in, and shall depart.