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I have not had a good old fashioned rant for a while so i shall endevour to knock one out now.

Not only do I find the idea of roundly slating this idea ridiculous, I find "socialism" as a whole ridiculous, and anyone who describes themselves as one to be an idealistic fool who has no grounding in the real world. I know there are plenty on here, so i shall of course refrain from using the word idiot.

If you have a system that can be exploited, it will be.

If you reward failure, then people will have an incentive to BE a failure.

Our nation has been destroyed by this garbage.

Stupid and irresonsible enough to have kids at 14? We reward you for it.

Get addicted to drugs? Reward.

Grandmother at 31? Reward.

Spend like a desperate gambler? Reward.

Lazy? Reward.

Be sensible, never go overdrawn, never claim benefits, never spend above your means, never go in the red?

Nothing for you, crack on shoring up the rest of the imbeciles.

Its ridiculous, and enough is enough.

I applaud Mr Camerons efforts, but frankly it isnt going to be enough, we should force them to work in a government workhouse, and the same goes for anybody who ends up "bankrupt" but didnt actually start a business or do something useful.

Oh and bring back hanging and flogging.

Scroungers and benefits cheats will be totally unconcerned by any proposals.

Civil servants couldn't give a toss either.

The only losers will be those who are too honest or those who are too weak to fight their corner.

Being as these are still only proposals I don't expect anything to come of them, it will be a watered down bill at best, threatening 'stronger' action.

This idea, whilst a good one, is unworkable and unreasonable. Unless Jesus can make the sick and infirm walk and people with no conscience suddenly get one. and general apathy ceases, In which case, it wouldn't be needed at all.

mattyrm wrote:Oh and bring back hanging and flogging.

Public stockades as well. This will spur on the fruit and veg market as people buy things to throw at those locked up.

SilverMK2 wrote:

mattyrm wrote:Oh and bring back hanging and flogging.

Public stockades as well. This will spur on the fruit and veg market as people buy things to throw at those locked up.

Ingenious! You sir will take a place on my cabinet.

Coming soon, Big Brother Inmate Edition!

Kill the murderer of your choice LIVE on air, with the weapon of your choice!

(Calls and Texts cost £1, execution carried out by PM matty last Friday of the month, all profits go to Help for Heroes, cancer research and the Cut Huntleys Knackers off foundation, minus £10.99 for the hammer he broke on Gary Glitters napper last month)

Kilkrazy wrote:How are children supposed to pay for school, out of their pocket money?

Yes, of course. If you go back and read my posts you'll find that's exactly what I said.

Here is another (somewhat related) gem.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11347134

As the Chief Librarian said..

"The rewards of tolerance are treachery and betrayal!"

And people are attempting to lambast the Italian authorities for clamping down on them?! We should drive them into the ocean at gunpoint like rats!

reds8n wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:I'm just going to mention, again, that we are talking about roughly 5 million people here.

Not quite..

I still wonder how many people we are talking about here. I've spent quite a bit of time looking into the statistics on this issue and the best I could find were opinion polls.

http://www.princes-trust.org.uk/about_the_trust/what_we_do/research/destined_for_the_dole1.aspx

Let's say half a million. Let's say a quarter million. That still a lot of people, but there is the issue of the families involved besides.

It doesn't sound nearly as bad as my first impressions. Not to say it still doesn't sound odd considering the updates you linked.

1] How much will it cost to find the work and ensure that claimants are carrying it out? Bear in mind that there are now 1.5m people on Jobseekers’ Allowance. (A total of 5m are on some form of out-of-work allowance, of which 2.5m are on incapacity benefit). If all are put through this system it would surely cost billions of pounds to administrate.

UPDATE: It will only apply to a small minority of claimants. The scheme may prove to be rather symbolic.

http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/2010/11/the-questions-for-ids-in-his-plan-to-give-hard-labour-to-workless/

Symbolism can catch on pretty quickly, but I'm still not sure what this could lead to. I don't want to talk about slippery slopes... but yeah, slippery slopes may be the end result of this.

What I find interesting is how clear many people in the U.K. are about the line on this issue. Maybe I am just used to U.S. politics, but I don't often hear people attacking unemployment insurance as much as I hear people attacking the safety net in general. It seems kind of flipped out here, but I'm not sure how direct the comparisons actually are.

Become a banker -- Reward!

Become an executive -- Reward!

Become a QUANGOCRAT -- Reward!

Become the head of an NHS Trust -- Reward!

Why oh why doesn't everyone who is unemployed simply become a banker or something.

Very soon they would all be multi-millionaires and retire to the Sechelles.

Kilkrazy wrote:Become a banker -- Reward!

Become an executive -- Reward!

Become a QUANGOCRAT -- Reward!

Become the head of an NHS Trust -- Reward!

Er... Worst argument ever, and ive come to expect good ones from you KK.

All of those people are working.

Oh no they're not!

Hah! Well we can argue about that.. govt jobs I can agree to some extent, but not private sector.

But at the end of the day, they do all get up and go to work, and some bankers do make ridiculous unfair amounts, but they get taxed, so they contribute.

Mattyrm, your arguments ( I hope they are jokes) border on the insane. Marching people into the sea at gun point?

Dakka has picked up my biggest pet hate in the world – The Benefits system. And reading the comments, Mattyrm is on my Cabinet!

My blood is boiling just typing this! Other than the reason of “Because you should” or “it’s the right thing to do” No one but no one can give me a reason why I have to go to work to pay for others. People on benefits do absolutely NOTHING for me, yet I’m forced to pay for them. Why is this? (“oh, because you should”). And my view extends to everyone on any type of benefit.

“I was involved in a car accident which left me paralysed” How is this my fault? Yet I’m punished for something that’s nothing to do with me by having to pay for it.

“I can’t walk properly so I need a new car bought for me” – See above comment.

“My husband / Wife / Boyfriend / Girlfriend left me to look after 3 kids” See above comment.

“I can’t find a job” See above comment.

“I’m handicapped” See above comment.

My solution is simple, stop all benefits. And yes, there is proof this system works.

Hong Kong has no benefits system, you work for a living, or you go hungry. Result, less that 3% unemployment of the working population. Families stick together as they look after each other in times of ill health and old age. Taxes are lower. Once you’ve paid tax on your standard working week (lets say it was 37 hours) there is no more tax to pay. So if you work hard, or have a second job, any extra hours you work over and above your standard is not taxed. Rewarded for working hard, no reward for not working.

I was in Vietnam earlier this year. Our tour guide asked me to answer honestly, “I’ve heard that in the UK, you a paid for not working, is this true”. The whole concept of getting free money for whatever reason was completely alien to him. “Everyone works here, or they go hungry” he said.

Let’s say we all decided not to work (for whatever reason), what then? Who pays for it in your liberalised country? The UK is living beyond its means and extreme action is required. Deploy the army at the borders. Illegal entries shot. Your pregnant (again) but can’t afford to pay for the Childs upbringing. Forced Abortion. You’re too lazy to use a condom (which are free in the UK) so you’ve now got 4 kids with 3 different mothers and you don’t pay for any of them. Chemically Castrated.

Here is a true story. My father went to the dentist for a problem. He’s worked all his life, paid taxes, and is 64. “I’m sorry” says the receptionist, “there are no new places for NHS patients, you’ll have to pay for your treatment”. Whilst sat in the waiting room, a single mother with 3 children walks in with a ‘social worker’. Guess what? She and her family are signed on NHS. In querying this, my father is told “They are from an ethic minority and claiming asylum, so we have to treat them”. So a family who’ve contributed NOTHING to society takes preference over someone who’s paid taxes into a country for +40 years and lived in for 63!! How is that fair??

I’m currently posted to the Middle East for 2 years. I hold a residency card for the country I’m living in and technically do not live in the UK. Yet I’m still paying taxes to a country I’m not living in!!!!!

TheSecretSquig wrote: People on benefits do absolutely NOTHING for me, yet I’m forced to pay for them.

Ignoring the obvious argument from being on benefits temporarily: of course they do something for you, they are doing something that isn't killing you and taking your wealth.

There are many ways to control people, and financial incentives that prevent them from resorting to pillaging the country-side is one of the better ones. Far cheaper than more police, on average, and far less dangerous in terms of violence.

We have Work for the Dole here in Australia. It works alright. It doesn't do as much as some people in this thread have claimed, but it can work as a wake up call for some people that they really do have to get out and get themselves into work.

It certainly isn't, and certainly doesn't, lead to slavery. Getting someone to work one or two days a week, which can be altered if they have a job interview, is no great imposition.

Albatross wrote:The problem is what increasing numbers of people think universities are actually FOR. I think the heavy accent on seeing it as a means to making oneself more employable in a general sense is part of the problem. People do Media Studies degrees (etc.) to give themselves a better chance of getting a slightly better-paid generic office job all too often. They should be places for advancing human understanding in certain subjects. Places of research just as much, if not more than places of qualification.

Yes, thankyou. I hate how often I see people talking about university as a place to crank out engineers and accountants.

Also, can you make a good argument for why the rest of society should pay for a private individual's education?

Because education and learning benefits when it attracts the best and brightest, not just the bright enough people who can afford tuition. Now, that doesn't mean the student cannot be obligated to pay some portion of the cost of their education. The scheme I like is for them to repay a portion once their degree is finished, and they earn over a certain amount.

mattyrm wrote:Not only do I find the idea of roundly slating this idea ridiculous, I find "socialism" as a whole ridiculous, and anyone who describes themselves as one to be an idealistic fool who has no grounding in the real world.

And I think anyone who talks about socialism in the context of any liberal democracy to be none better. The UK is not socialist.

If you have a system that can be exploited, it will be.

Isn't capitalism a system, as well? Doesn't it also get exploited?

Our nation has been destroyed by this garbage.

Not really, no. You're finding new ways to deal with the new problem of a labour market that requires increasingly skilled labour in your own ways, and finding some success and some failure just as the rest of us are. The country is among the wealthiest and most productive in the world, it's hardly 'destroyed'.

I applaud Mr Camerons efforts, but frankly it isnt going to be enough, we should force them to work in a government workhouse, and the same goes for anybody who ends up "bankrupt" but didnt actually start a business or do something useful.

At the end of the day, I just don't understand the bitterness. I get people having different opinions on how much welfare should be, and how much people should be expected to do to receive their welfare... but I just don't get the bitterness and hostility towards people who don't have jobs.

mattyrm wrote:Hah! Well we can argue about that.. govt jobs I can agree to some extent, but not private sector.

Hahahahahahaha!

Worked much in the private sector? Ever been in the offices of a multi-national?

TheSecretSquig wrote:“I was involved in a car accident which left me paralysed” How is this my fault? Yet I’m punished for something that’s nothing to do with me by having to pay for it.

You don't think it is a good thing that person paralysed in a car accident is looked after? I'm not joking here, if you don't understand how almost everyone other than you thinks that's just fine you might be a sociopath.

Seriously, not liking welfare recipients is one thing, what you're arguing above shows an extremely unhealthy lack of empathy.

TheSecretSquig wrote:. People on benefits do absolutely NOTHING for me, yet I’m forced to pay for them. Why is this? (“oh, because you should”). And my view extends to everyone on any type of benefit.

Apparently you have been paying for me hahahaha how does that feel? Oh, wait before I claimed jobseekers I had been in full time employment since the age of eighteen. Luckily I am employed again and pay NI contributions and tax for a limited amouunt of self employed work that I manage to do, that I could hide from the government but choose not to.

Though, re-reading your post, I cannot decide if you are a narrow minded idiot or just trolling.

TheSecretSquig wrote:
Let’s say we all decided not to work (for whatever reason), what then?

Do you honestly think that will ever happen? I mean, it hasn't happened yet, most likely because there are people like you who proudly thrust their bosoms erectly upward because they care about the social standards of those they associate with. Other people are not so inclined, and the issue isn't so much making them more like you, because they clearly don't care about social standards, as it is about making sure they do something that we can tolerate.

And, despite your indignation, losing money due to taxes isn't intolerable.

TheSecretSquig wrote:

Here is a true story. My father went to the dentist for a problem. He’s worked all his life, paid taxes, and is 64. “I’m sorry” says the receptionist, “there are no new places for NHS patients, you’ll have to pay for your treatment”. Whilst sat in the waiting room, a single mother with 3 children walks in with a ‘social worker’. Guess what? She and her family are signed on NHS. In querying this, my father is told “They are from an ethic minority and claiming asylum, so we have to treat them”. So a family who’ve contributed NOTHING to society takes preference over someone who’s paid taxes into a country for +40 years and lived in for 63!! How is that fair??

Why should I pay for your dad to get dental or medical treatment? he should've earned enough to go private instead of relying on the state.

Well that post sparked some debate, but still, no one can provide a reason as to why I should work, to have money taken from me, to pay for someone who does NOTHING for me in return. If you’re in the Pub on a Sat. night and someone comes up to you and says “Hey mate, buy me a pint because I can’t work to pay for it myself”, you’d more than likely tell them where to go.

Maybe it was how I was brought up, you work for a living. I really do not understand the concept of giving away my hard earned cash because for something that is completely out of my control, this person doesn’t have any. It’s a bit like me going to one of my neighbours.

“Hey mate, I really want your Aston DB9, I can’t get a job that pays me enough because of (insert reason), so you should give me some of you hard earned cash so I can buy one”

The car accident example above – Isn’t that what insurance is for?

My Father story above– He did pay for his own treatment. The fact remains if you work hard, you get nothing back. If you contribute nothing to society, you get a life paid for.

The culture of the UK has changed in the last 30 years into one where people feel they are owed a living from the state and the working population. I have relatives who I’ve not spoken to for +15 years. They live of benefits and have every mod-con in the house possible, as well as a new car and they go on overseas holidays every year, all paid for by Mr Taxpayer. Take a GW store Manager. Works 37hrs a week, and would not be able to afford the same as someone who leeches off the benefits system.

‘dogma’ says it will never happen that everyone will stop working and say, “pay for me Mr State”. I’m sorry but it’s already happening, there is a whole generation of teenagers who were brought up on a free life on the benefits, having multiple children with multiple fathers who all will be brought up on the free life of benefits.

I for one can’t wait until I’ve saved (a novel concept) enough money to move and work in a country that rewards ‘workers’. The UK is if you try and work your way around the swear filter like this again then your ass is out of here. I really hope Cameroon turns things around. In a country where Soliders are risking their lives on the front line, but are still expected to pay taxes in their home country, whilst others laze about doing, contributing nothing and paying for nothing.

Bring back National Service, Corporal Punishment, get rid of Benefits. Other countries prove this works. Benefits should be like charity, you either choose to pay or you don’t. If you said to the working population, “You can save 5% of your Tax effectively gaining a 5% pay rise, by choosing not to pay into the benefits pot” I guarantee that pot of money will shrink faster than a dole boy being told he has to be out of bed before 11am. Most people would take the 5% rise, and I very much doubt the PC brigade would be able to cope with all the hands in the air wanting their money.

How do you know that every person on benefits does nothing for you ?

And will never do anything for you. Or that their children won't ?

I also don't quite believe the wording of your fathers' story.


EDIT : that sounds harsher than I meant. Apologies.

TheSecretSquig wrote:Well that post sparked some debate, but still, no one can provide a reason as to why I should work, to have money taken from me, to pay for someone who does NOTHING for me in return. If you’re in the Pub on a Sat. night and someone comes up to you and says “Hey mate, buy me a pint because I can’t work to pay for it myself”, you’d more than likely tell them where to go.

Maybe it was how I was brought up, you work for a living. I really do not understand the concept of giving away my hard earned cash because for something that is completely out of my control, this person doesn’t have any. It’s a bit like me going to one of my neighbours.

“Hey mate, I really want your Aston DB9, I can’t get a job that pays me enough because of (insert reason), so you should give me some of you hard earned cash so I can buy one”

The car accident example above – Isn’t that what insurance is for?

My Father story above– He did pay for his own treatment. The fact remains if you work hard, you get nothing back. If you contribute nothing to society, you get a life paid for.

The culture of the UK has changed in the last 30 years into one where people feel they are owed a living from the state and the working population. I have relatives who I’ve not spoken to for +15 years. They live of benefits and have every mod-con in the house possible, as well as a new car and they go on overseas holidays every year, all paid for by Mr Taxpayer. Take a GW store Manager. Works 37hrs a week, and would not be able to afford the same as someone who leeches off the benefits system.

‘dogma’ says it will never happen that everyone will stop working and say, “pay for me Mr State”. I’m sorry but it’s already happening, there is a whole generation of teenagers who were brought up on a free life on the benefits, having multiple children with multiple fathers who all will be brought up on the free life of benefits.

I for one can’t wait until I’ve saved (a novel concept) enough money to move and work in a country that rewards ‘workers’. The UK is if you try and work your way around the swear filter like this again then your ass is out of here. I really hope Cameroon turns things around. In a country where Soliders are risking their lives on the front line, but are still expected to pay taxes in their home country, whilst others laze about doing, contributing nothing and paying for nothing.

Bring back National Service, Corporal Punishment, get rid of Benefits. Other countries prove this works. Benefits should be like charity, you either choose to pay or you don’t. If you said to the working population, “You can save 5% of your Tax effectively gaining a 5% pay rise, by choosing not to pay into the benefits pot” I guarantee that pot of money will shrink faster than a dole boy being told he has to be out of bed before 11am. Most people would take the 5% rise, and I very much doubt the PC brigade would be able to cope with all the hands in the air wanting their money.

I hate to burst your bubble, comrade, but no state reward their workers, except maybe North Korea, I hear they have a paradise over there...send us a post card...

Kilkrazy wrote:Become a banker -- Reward!

...or... bonuses capped, widely vilified despite much of the UK economy being based on financial services, bank levies...

Become an executive -- Reward!

...or clean out your desk because the company you worked for went bust...

Become a QUANGOCRAT -- Reward!

P45! Reward!

Become the head of an NHS Trust -- Reward!

Radical restructuring of the NHS meaning that powers are being increasingly decentralised! P45! Reward!

sebster wrote:Because education and learning benefits when it attracts the best and brightest, not just the bright enough people who can afford tuition. Now, that doesn't mean the student cannot be obligated to pay some portion of the cost of their education. The scheme I like is for them to repay a portion once their degree is finished, and they earn over a certain amount.

...Which is why I said there should always be pathways for people with ability to... y'know what? Nevermind. Just go back and read it if you want, I can't be bothered.

As a socialist.

I entirely support the notion of working for benefits if medically able to do so.

As a socialist.

I believe in the individual's obligation to contribute to society for the betterment of all.

That includes people contributing hours of labour to receive payment from the state, just as much as it includes appropirate taxation according to earnings within the nation.

I have worked for Social Services previously and seen first hand the culture of multigenerational benefit claiming as a career choice. I am opposed to this and as a socialist, maintain that the individual must contribute to the state.

For those in this thread lambasting (yet again) socialism, the belief in left wing state, supportive of the working man and woman, DOES NOT endorse social parasitism.

Work hard, earn a crust, enjoy the support of the state should you need it. Contribute, be productive, empower youself and the nation. That is my socialist belief.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Work hard, earn a crust, enjoy the support of the state should you need it. Contribute, be productive, empower youself and the nation. That is my socialist belief.

This is what I think, and I don't consider myself socialist.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:As a socialist.

I entirely support the notion of working for benefits if medically able to do so.

As a socialist.

I believe in the individual's obligation to contribute to society for the betterment of all.

That includes people contributing hours of labour to receive payment from the state, just as much as it includes appropirate taxation according to earnings within the nation.

I have worked for Social Services previously and seen first hand the culture of multigenerational benefit claiming as a career choice. I am opposed to this and as a socialist, maintain that the individual must contribute to the state.

For those in this thread lambasting (yet again) socialism, the belief in left wing state, supportive of the working man and woman, DOES NOT endorse social parasitism.

Work hard, earn a crust, enjoy the support of the state should you need it. Contribute, be productive, empower youself and the nation. That is my socialist belief.

Just a few things:

That includes people contributing hours of labour to receive payment from the state.

Are you saying that all employment should be controlled by the state, here? As in, all businesses being state-run and maintained? Because that's pretty monstrous. That would give the state total power over your life.

If you were talking about making people work for their benefits, disregard.

For those in this thread lambasting (yet again) socialism, the belief in left wing state, supportive of the working man and woman, DOES NOT endorse social parasitism.

But it DOES enable it, in as much as social security mechanisms are applied in the West. Do you deny this?

This is the problem I, and I believe, many people have with Socialism - when it's applied rigorously it's monstrous and oppressive, when it's applied more loosely or in conjunction with other systems it seems to lead to demographic near-crises, like the one we're currently 'enjoying'.

TheSecretSquig wrote:
‘dogma’ says it will never happen that everyone will stop working and say, “pay for me Mr State”. I’m sorry but it’s already happening, there is a whole generation of teenagers who were brought up on a free life on the benefits, having multiple children with multiple fathers who all will be brought up on the free life of benefits.

No, that's hyperbole and you should know it if you don't. Perhaps my use of 'never' was incorrect, it may have been better to say 'highly unlikely', but let's not pretend that the whole of the younger generation is defined by what is essentially the culture of poverty. Doing so is ridiculous for a number of reasons, but the most prominent is that there are plainly children in the UK from well-to-do backgrounds that have never seen a dole pound in their lives.

I mean really, are you trying to claim that no one in the UK lives outside poverty? No one goes to Oxford or Cambridge? Let's not play at nonsense.

TheSecretSquig wrote:
Other countries prove this works.

Which ones? What developed nation doesn't have a social safety net? What developing nation doesn't have a social safety net.

Christ, China has a social safety net and they openly drop dissenters in black prisons.

While in concept I'm all for putting people on benefits to work I think you'd get more bang for your buck with tougher enforcement of who can and cannot receive the benefits.

Albatross wrote:[Just a few things:

That includes people contributing hours of labour to receive payment from the state.

Are you saying that all employment should be controlled by the state, here? As in, all businesses being state-run and maintained? Because that's pretty monstrous. That would give the state total power over your life.

If you were talking about making people work for their benefits, disregard.

Disregarded. Basically I am not thinking those people should work a 40hr week, since the amount they receive is not proportionate to that and, of course, they must have appropriate time to facilitate actively seeking to return to paid work.

Albatross wrote:

For those in this thread lambasting (yet again) socialism, the belief in left wing state, supportive of the working man and woman, DOES NOT endorse social parasitism.

But it DOES enable it, in as much as social security mechanisms are applied in the West. Do you deny this?
This is the problem I, and I believe, many people have with Socialism - when it's applied rigorously it's monstrous and oppressive, when it's applied more loosely or in conjunction with other systems it seems to lead to demographic near-crises, like the one we're currently 'enjoying'.

Socialism, employed rigourously does not create a monsterous or oppressive society, socialism and free enterprise are perfectly capable of coexisting. Certain services and facilities are better suited to free market and certain to the state. Water for example, should never have been privatised as currently within this country, a state of monopoly exists. Rigour does not equate to totalitarianism, it can be a stong leash but a long one.
What you and several other posters commonly do is to point to New Labour and say 'socialist'. Whilst some in the Labour party do hold themselves up as socialist, others have banished the word as 'dirty'. The 'social parasitism' we see within the Underclass (recreated during the Thatcher years, not having been seen since Victorian times btw) does need to be stopped, as a working class man who believes in contribution to society, you'll get no arguement from me on that.

The arguement you will get is that the Conservatives will not spend time reworking benefits so that they are easy to use for those in actual need, but instead 'blanket quash' certain benefits or cut them. Why? Because the actual state measurements necessary to monitor and effectively means test and requirement test would cost more money in terms of investing and altering.
New Labour does harbour the 'soft' liberal who would allow 4 generations of the same family to do not one day of work because the first generation father was 'smacked' as a child. Such people are usually fairly wealthy themselves and come from comfortable backgrounds. Most working class people hold not one bit of such sympathy and expect everyone else to chip in and pull their weight.

We do need an overhaul of the way in which we delegate the support of the state's finances to it's citizens. That does not mean a shut down of services, that means a revision of them and how we break the culture of the Underclass.

Cuts to services provided by the state do not harm the successful benefit scrounger, they hurt those who are honest and 'don't like to cause a fuss' or 'will just get by'.

Oh... BTW Albatross, I guessed either a giant hammer and sickle or a huge picture of Stalin. Could I ask for a picture of Ché next time? The Hammer and Sickle is getting formulaic.

Albatross wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Become a banker -- Reward!

...or... bonuses capped, widely vilified despite much of the UK economy being based on financial services, bank levies... Take your earnings as dividends paid into offshore accounts, and pay tax on a small percentage of your earnings

Become an executive -- Reward!

...or clean out your desk because the company you worked for went bust... Because you ran it into the ground. And as a ltd company, all the debts die with it. Tommorrow start another company, doing exactly the same thing. and fleece the system all over again

Become a QUANGOCRAT -- Reward!

P45! Reward! Get to sit at functions, giving opinions ,eating free food, with expenses paid. telling other people how to fleece the system/workforce.

Become the head of an NHS Trust -- Reward!

Radical restructuring of the NHS meaning that powers are being increasingly decentralised! P45! Reward! Take big fat pay check plus bonuses, pension plan golden handshake etc.
Dont worry that you took all the money out of the system, It's a political hot potato, so the goverment will clean up the mess


There fixed that for ya

Sebster, WHY can you not understand the bitterness?

I cant understand not understanding the bitterness!

Think about it. Nobody really LOVES going to work. I mean, i don't mind my job, after ten years working in places like Iraq, i dont mind going to work, but i would rather be at home painting my mini's.

Now think about someone who hates their job, lots of people do. Really hates it. They hate having to get up at 5am and go work in an office full of people they hate, but they do it anyway.

And next door, they have a guy who plays the system. A guy who hasnt worked for 5 years, and who gets to drink beer 4 or 5 nights a week, but the other guy cant cos he hates going to work with a hangover.

And the guy seems to have as much disposable money, he smokes, he drinks, his car is as nice. But he never has to get up before 11am, and he doesnt have to sit in that damn office for 40 hours a week.

And you dont understand the bitterness?!!

Well i bloody do.

I joined the Royal Marine Commandos because it was a lifelong ambition,and i had a base desire to shoot people, i was young and foolish, but thats neither here nor there.

Many people in the regular army dont do what they do for reasons like mine. Many just do it because they need a job. They want to pay their way, and their pride wont allow them to try the sponging route. I have personally known many people.. really decent people like that.

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/SergeantLeeJohnsonOf2ndBattalionTheYorkshireRegimentKilledInAfghanistan.htm

I knew this man personally. He was a good guy, from a town just down the road from me. If i am honest, he wasnt that bright a bloke, i could tell by speaking with him, he wasnt very articulate, but like many squaddies from working class background, he had a big heart, and he liked sports and he had some good friends already in the army. So he went and joined as a young fella.

He spent 6 weeks on the ground with my unit teaching us the ground when we first arrived in Kajaki. He was supposed to go on his are and are but he volunteered to push into Musa Qualeh and delay his leave, it was a big operation, and he didnt want to miss the action. He got killed shortly afterwards.

I dont tell you this story to evoke any emotional reponse, indeed, its the internet, i dont expect a story like that would cause one, you dont know any of us, or him, or me.

But im giving you a blindingly obvious and clear pathway to bitterness. if Johno has just thought "screw this" a few years into his career, he would still be here now.

EVERYONE can play the system in the UK, we could all do it. But some of us, good, decent people, have too much pride to allow ourselves to go down that route, so we dont do it. Young, working/lower class people often join the forces just because they cant really think of anything else to do, and they die because of their pride. Better to sit at home and get "free" money surely?

So why dont we all do it? We KNOW they will pay our rent, we know they will give us that 70 quid a week for fags and booze. So why not?

Because we arent all scumbags who are happy to leech of the system.

Which brings me to my next point nicely..

Who earlier was mentioning someone being a sociopath because they didnt care about other people?

I find that an interesting proposition.

I have a conscience. I have something in my mind that makes me feel bad when i see people suffer, and i would never do something bia my own hand that would cause it, theft, rape, (needless) assault

But.. i dont know, if something isnt directly my fault, then i care very little indeed. Does that therefore qualify me as one?

I have faith in my own abilities, and as a result of that, i have a somewhat scornful attitude of those that need help. This is one dimensional i know, but its just the way i feel. I would hate myself if i ever had to sign on for the dole, and i know that i can never be 100% certain it will never ever happen, so perhaps it is a foolish notion, but it is with me nonetheless.

If someone says to me "give me $5 or my baby will starve" i dont give them $5, and i just dont care very much. First of all, i know there are other avenues for assistance, secondly i presume they are not being honest. And I feel a little sad for the baby, but, its not my fault the baby has a slowed parent is it? They shouldnt have had the kid, they should have had a plan, they should have got a job, how is this my doing?

The first time i ever shot somebody i kinda.. struggled with it for for a while as i was young and foolish, and then basically felt that i should not carry a single shred of remorse with me, it went something along the lines of "he deserved it, if he didnt, he wouldnt have picked a rifle up, he would have stayed home and looked after his family and ignored all this war stuff..."

Anyway, im genuinelly curious if i would fit the description of a sociopath as i think of myself as being a decent person... but thats probably another thread.

Back on topic, I am not just bitter, i am filled with hate.