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I'd argue a mix of A) and C). Though I would be surprised if the Men of Iron war was engineered by the Eldar, rather than a stroke of good luck (for them).

I'd be under the impression that the Eldar would be too wrapped up in their own problems to even try screwing with the humans. I mean, I bet the farseers of the Eldar would be trying to use humanity as an example of why the Eldar neeeded to get off their asses and go do something, but I don't think they'd have the ability to cause the Iron Men to rebel...

I guess I'd go woth a mix of A and B but lean more towards B. Although I wish they would flesh the prehistory out more and reveal that it was C. That way The Eldar actually did something impressive rather than just be the portrayed as the universe's perpetual screw-ups the way they are now.

Bran Dawri wrote:As to the original question, I liked old fluff more.

I know it's been retconned, but it used to be that the height (and fall) of the Eldar empire occurred a loooooooooong time before humanity even evolved, and that the Fall was the cause of the Warp storms that kept Humanity confined to the Solar System until the Dark Age of Technology.
In my mind, that's still how it is.

Why are the two incompatible? The Fall of the Eldar didn't happen over a split-second. Birthing a new chaos god took tens of thousands of years.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:As to the original question, I liked old fluff more.

I know it's been retconned, but it used to be that the height (and fall) of the Eldar empire occurred a loooooooooong time before humanity even evolved, and that the Fall was the cause of the Warp storms that kept Humanity confined to the Solar System until the Dark Age of Technology.
In my mind, that's still how it is.

Why are the two incompatible? The Fall of the Eldar didn't happen over a split-second. Birthing a new chaos god took tens of thousands of years.

Well, in the old fluff (if this is true still looking for conformation) the birth of Slannesh and the fall happened in what Humanity would consider prehistory. Now it's in M30 right before The Emperor leaves Terra.

Should have added option
D) Bad Retcon.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
B) The Eldar's power has always been overexagerated.
Actually The Eldar are not that big a deal and never were. Yes, they were the dominant civilization in the Galaxy but they never owned it in a way that the modern Imperium would claim with a million worlds. Though their technological and societal acheivements were incredible they are not a prolific people. They cannot spread rapidly like Humans and Orks and so mainly their empire, though impressive, was mainly localized within what is now The Eye of Terror. Also part of this theory is that Humanity tech level was very high at this time. Basically on par with the Eldar in many areas. The Eldar couldn't stop humanity if they wanted to, they lacked both the numbers and the wherewithal.

Since when does landmass of a political entity equal political might? That's a rhetorical question, since the answer is "never".

The Eldar were never interested in fighting the expansion of Humanity. Codex Necrons explains this partially, but directly, as has been stated in this thread.

Eldar still don't view Humanity's expansion as a threat, save that Chaos is now directly supported by Humanity. Just because a political entity isn't expansionist doesn't mean they aren't potent.


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KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Well, in the old fluff (if this is true still looking for conformation) the birth of Slannesh and the fall happened in what Humanity would consider prehistory.

You won't find confirmation, since that never happened in any fluff era.

The gestating of Slannesh caused the warp storms that made travel increasingly difficult for Humanity (well before they were the Imperium). After the birth of Slannesh, those same warp storms abated. At this time, the Emperor declared himself Emperor and set about rounding up all the colonies of Humanity that had become cut off.

That's spelled out in Codex Eldar (2nd edition).

Eldar were pretty spread out. The Exodite worlds were made 'on the fringes of the Eldar Empire'; these are on the edge of the galaxy according to the 40k galaxy map

The new DE codex they really show the scale of Eldar Empire, stating that the old empire was "the largest empire to ever grace the stars".

DarknessEternal wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
B) The Eldar's power has always been overexagerated.
Actually The Eldar are not that big a deal and never were. Yes, they were the dominant civilization in the Galaxy but they never owned it in a way that the modern Imperium would claim with a million worlds. Though their technological and societal acheivements were incredible they are not a prolific people. They cannot spread rapidly like Humans and Orks and so mainly their empire, though impressive, was mainly localized within what is now The Eye of Terror. Also part of this theory is that Humanity tech level was very high at this time. Basically on par with the Eldar in many areas. The Eldar couldn't stop humanity if they wanted to, they lacked both the numbers and the wherewithal.

Since when does landmass of a political entity equal political might? That's a rhetorical question, since the answer is "never".

The Eldar were never interested in fighting the expansion of Humanity. Codex Necrons explains this partially, but directly, as has been stated in this thread.

Eldar still don't view Humanity's expansion as a threat, save that Chaos is now directly supported by Humanity. Just because a political entity isn't expansionist doesn't mean they aren't potent.

When does landmass and population equal power? How about almost always.
I'll never buy the theory that The Eldar were at their peak and just didn't care about Humanity taking over a million worlds. This is a major problem.


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DarknessEternal wrote:


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KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Well, in the old fluff (if this is true still looking for conformation) the birth of Slannesh and the fall happened in what Humanity would consider prehistory.

You won't find confirmation, since that never happened in any fluff era.

The gestating of Slannesh caused the warp storms that made travel increasingly difficult for Humanity (well before they were the Imperium). After the birth of Slannesh, those same warp storms abated. At this time, the Emperor declared himself Emperor and set about rounding up all the colonies of Humanity that had become cut off.

That's spelled out in Codex Eldar (2nd edition).

Perhaps but then why in your previous post were you talking about how the two versions were not incompatible.


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Daba wrote:Eldar were pretty spread out. The Exodite worlds were made 'on the fringes of the Eldar Empire'; these are on the edge of the galaxy according to the 40k galaxy map

The new DE codex they really show the scale of Eldar Empire, stating that the old empire was "the largest empire to ever grace the stars".

Well then I guess then they were everywhere but even more spread out than humanity is now. Going with "A" then.

The thing is they weren't at their peak. They were in the declining phase already. Their peak had come along time before, given that the Dark Age of Technolgoy is still M15-M18, the Eldar probably were at their peak a few thousand years before hand. By the time humanity was spreading, they'd gone into decline and were probably more focused on their own problems then humanity slowly beginning to spread.

And the problem with space empires is that you can't measure in terms of 'area controlled', especially in the 40k universe, but you have to go by simple number of planets. The Eldar could very well have had worlds all over the galaxy, but given how slowly they reproduce probably would never have reached the sheer population that's required to truly 'rule' the galaxy like the Imperium does.

I concur.

Daba wrote:Eldar were pretty spread out. The Exodite worlds were made 'on the fringes of the Eldar Empire'; these are on the edge of the galaxy according to the 40k galaxy map

Actually, the Exodite worlds were spread out even beyond what would be considered strictly Eldar Empire.

The new DE codex they really show the scale of Eldar Empire, stating that the old empire was "the largest empire to ever grace the stars".

Funny, given this is almost exactly what is said about the Imperium.

I interpret the pre-Age of Strife history of humanity as being GW's deliberate "blank period" for any sci-fi fanboys to superimpose their preferred timelines onto...

I for one, like to imagine that humanity was a wonderful cutting-edge liberal-minded and friendly mass effectish type of civilisation

It certainly makes me find 40k more ironic.

Henners91 wrote:I interpret the pre-Age of Strife history of humanity as being GW's deliberate "blank period" for any sci-fi fanboys to superimpose their preferred timelines onto...

I for one, like to imagine that humanity was a wonderful cutting-edge liberal-minded and friendly mass effectish type of civilisation

It certainly makes me find 40k more ironic.

Especially given that certain remants of these civilisations were rediscovered intact during the Great Crusade. Then suitably oppressed.

Imagine the final scene from Mass Effect, but instead of Reaper Ships you have the Imperial Navy.

The Eldar's culture was in decline, not their power. Had a visible threat appeared, it would have jerked at least some of them back to their senses, at least long enough to deal with it. Considering none of the modern Eldar factions bother trying to take/colonize new worlds, they likely didn't much care about territory for the sake of territory then either. They were a post-scarcity, or at least a post-labor, civilization. They didn't need aggro-worlds or mining outposts to function, nor did they need more space to house their population (after all, they had all the space they wanted in the webway). They likely had outposts and pet projects throughout the galaxy (like the garden worlds), but their society as a whole was unconcerned with them.

Henners91 wrote:I interpret the pre-Age of Strife history of humanity as being GW's deliberate "blank period" for any sci-fi fanboys to superimpose their preferred timelines onto...

I for one, like to imagine that humanity was a wonderful cutting-edge liberal-minded and friendly mass effectish type of civilisation

It certainly makes me find 40k more ironic.

I definately think that's what's implied. The current age of Imperium is supposed to be the opposite of what they were. Wouldn't mind them fleshing it out a bit that's for sure.


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Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The Eldar's culture was in decline, not their power. Had a visible threat appeared, it would have jerked at least some of them back to their senses, at least long enough to deal with it. Considering none of the modern Eldar factions bother trying to take/colonize new worlds, they likely didn't much care about territory for the sake of territory then either. They were a post-scarcity, or at least a post-labor, civilization. They didn't need aggro-worlds or mining outposts to function, nor did they need more space to house their population (after all, they had all the space they wanted in the webway). They likely had outposts and pet projects throughout the galaxy (like the garden worlds), but their society as a whole was unconcerned with them.

Eldar don't colonize new worlds because they are basically marooned where they ended up not becasue they have no interest in rebuilding their civilization's territory. Craftworld Eldar need to return their soulstones to their infinity circiuts. Their heaven (or perhaps more accurately Limbo) is contained within their world ships. For Exodites it's the World Spirit. Dark Eldar are hiding and simply plan to live forever.

The Eldar really, really screwed themselves.
You'd think a clear and present danger would jerk them back to their senses but we're talking about a people that got so self absorbed in their own perverions that it blew up the galaxy.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Eldar really, really screwed themselves.

Pun.

You'd think a clear and present danger would jerk them back to their senses but we're talking about a people that got so self absorbed in their own perverions that it blew up the galaxy.

You're right, by the later stages alien enroachment and even attacks would have been ignored by pretty much every but those directly affected.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Eldar don't colonize new worlds because they are basically marooned where they ended up not becasue they have no interest in rebuilding their civilization's territory. Craftworld Eldar need to return their soulstones to their infinity circiuts. Their heaven (or perhaps more accurately Limbo) is contained within their world ships. For Exodites it's the World Spirit. Dark Eldar are hiding and simply plan to live forever.

They actually still do colonise from either WD127 or the 2nd/4th Ed Codex as it's often a path they go down.

However, they are mainly there to create things that can't be duplicated on Craftworlds, like Organic Fresh Dinosaur Meat (I'm not joking about that), rather than long term living colonies and the colonists individually return when that path is over for them.

The Eldar really, really screwed themselves.
You'd think a clear and present danger would jerk them back to their senses but we're talking about a people that got so self absorbed in their own perverions that it blew up the galaxy.

I think the point is, there was no danger from without; no military force could contend with them (I think it outright states that in the 4th Ed Codex) but the danger from within was much more subtle.

Daba wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Eldar don't colonize new worlds because they are basically marooned where they ended up not becasue they have no interest in rebuilding their civilization's territory. Craftworld Eldar need to return their soulstones to their infinity circiuts. Their heaven (or perhaps more accurately Limbo) is contained within their world ships. For Exodites it's the World Spirit. Dark Eldar are hiding and simply plan to live forever.

They actually still do colonise from either WD127 or the 2nd/4th Ed Codex as it's often a path they go down.

However, they are mainly there to create things that can't be duplicated on Craftworlds, like Organic Fresh Dinosaur Meat (I'm not joking about that), rather than long term living colonies and the colonists individually return when that path is over for them.

Interesting. I admint I too would risk not only my life but my eternal soul for free-range organic Brontosaurus steak. Like you said though its not really colonization more like the "Farmer" path. They are like Rangers who seek adventure and then return to their craftworld when sated - except these guys just wanted filet mignon. By far my new favorite Eldar Path!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Interesting. I admint I too would risk not only my life but my eternal soul for free-range organic Brontosaurus steak. Like you said though its not really colonization more like the "Farmer" path. They are like Rangers who seek adventure and then return to their craftworld when sated - except these guys just wanted filet mignon. By far my new favorite Eldar Path!

Yeah, I think the structures are there, along with permanent web gates (possibly taken there from ships with some on the 'explorer' path which others might take).

They might stay there for hundreds of years but that's probably like moving to a new country for your job for a few years; they might bring family or have children there but they'll eventually return, someone else will come and replace where he was before.

I think it's not too risky normally, as they will be carried back to the Craftworld if they prodded a Triceratops' behind with his fusion brander, and it kicked back unexpectedly.

I haven't read all of this thread as some of it was OT but in response to the first post, I found this:

THE COMING OF MEN
During the Dark Age of Technology, scouts from Earth travelled far through the galaxy seeking planets to be used as agricultural worlds to provide food for the huge hiveworlds of Humanity. They copied the farming techniques used by the Eldar Knights already living on some of the worlds discovered. In a period referred to by the Exodites as The Coming of Men, the Eldar and Human colonists clashed in a series of bloody wars as the Eldar Knights sought to protect their homes from the interlopers.

When these planets were cut off in the Age of Strife, they became feral worlds. A warrior aristocracy grew up on the Human worlds, mimicking the lifestyle of the Eldar clans. On many worlds, the Eldar clans resurged to win back the lands they had lost and settled into a pattern of battling and raiding both against the Humans and each other. The wealth of the noble Human houses and Eldar clans was based on their herds and much herd-raiding went on. The herds were greatly reduced in size, but, as the only readily available food source, were just as important

THE REDISCOVERY
Thousands of years later, the planets were brought back into the Imperium. When Rogue Trader Jeffers rediscovered the agriworlds he referred to their inhabitants as Knights, pointing out their many Knightly virtues as he emphasised the worlds' value to the Empire both as a massive food resource and as a source of born and bred warriors. The Administratum agreed with Jeffers' findings and quickly set about rediscovering the rest of the long-lost agriworlds. To their delight, they found that two in three of the originally settled worlds were still occupied by Humans working along very similar social lines. The remaining worlds were either occupied by both Eldar and Human Knights or held exclusively by clans of Eldar Knights with strong links to the craftworlds, trading natural raw materials for technology.

It's from WD 126, old but good

Pilau Rice wrote:I haven't read all of this thread as some of it was OT but in response to the first post, I found this:

THE COMING OF MEN
During the Dark Age of Technology, scouts from Earth travelled far through the galaxy seeking planets to be used as agricultural worlds to provide food for the huge hiveworlds of Humanity. They copied the farming techniques used by the Eldar Knights already living on some of the worlds discovered. In a period referred to by the Exodites as The Coming of Men, the Eldar and Human colonists clashed in a series of bloody wars as the Eldar Knights sought to protect their homes from the interlopers.

When these planets were cut off in the Age of Strife, they became feral worlds. A warrior aristocracy grew up on the Human worlds, mimicking the lifestyle of the Eldar clans. On many worlds, the Eldar clans resurged to win back the lands they had lost and settled into a pattern of battling and raiding both against the Humans and each other. The wealth of the noble Human houses and Eldar clans was based on their herds and much herd-raiding went on. The herds were greatly reduced in size, but, as the only readily available food source, were just as important

THE REDISCOVERY
Thousands of years later, the planets were brought back into the Imperium. When Rogue Trader Jeffers rediscovered the agriworlds he referred to their inhabitants as Knights, pointing out their many Knightly virtues as he emphasised the worlds' value to the Empire both as a massive food resource and as a source of born and bred warriors. The Administratum agreed with Jeffers' findings and quickly set about rediscovering the rest of the long-lost agriworlds. To their delight, they found that two in three of the originally settled worlds were still occupied by Humans working along very similar social lines. The remaining worlds were either occupied by both Eldar and Human Knights or held exclusively by clans of Eldar Knights with strong links to the craftworlds, trading natural raw materials for technology.

It's from WD 126, old but good

Interesting, this would imply that the Age of Strife was more than an event that affected just humanity. It seemed to have impacts on races throughout the galaxy, including the Eldar (though somewhat reduced due to the webway),something that I had not considered.

Pilau Rice wrote:I haven't read all of this thread as some of it was OT but in response to the first post, I found this:

THE COMING OF MEN
During the Dark Age of Technology, scouts from Earth travelled far through the galaxy seeking planets to be used as agricultural worlds to provide food for the huge hiveworlds of Humanity. They copied the farming techniques used by the Eldar Knights already living on some of the worlds discovered. In a period referred to by the Exodites as The Coming of Men, the Eldar and Human colonists clashed in a series of bloody wars as the Eldar Knights sought to protect their homes from the interlopers.

When these planets were cut off in the Age of Strife, they became feral worlds. A warrior aristocracy grew up on the Human worlds, mimicking the lifestyle of the Eldar clans. On many worlds, the Eldar clans resurged to win back the lands they had lost and settled into a pattern of battling and raiding both against the Humans and each other. The wealth of the noble Human houses and Eldar clans was based on their herds and much herd-raiding went on. The herds were greatly reduced in size, but, as the only readily available food source, were just as important

THE REDISCOVERY
Thousands of years later, the planets were brought back into the Imperium. When Rogue Trader Jeffers rediscovered the agriworlds he referred to their inhabitants as Knights, pointing out their many Knightly virtues as he emphasised the worlds' value to the Empire both as a massive food resource and as a source of born and bred warriors. The Administratum agreed with Jeffers' findings and quickly set about rediscovering the rest of the long-lost agriworlds. To their delight, they found that two in three of the originally settled worlds were still occupied by Humans working along very similar social lines. The remaining worlds were either occupied by both Eldar and Human Knights or held exclusively by clans of Eldar Knights with strong links to the craftworlds, trading natural raw materials for technology.

It's from WD 126, old but good

Well that reraises the original question. Here we see frontier wars breaking out amongst the colonists. We know why the humans didn't get any support: they didn't really have a centralized goverment. However, the Eldar did so where's their backup? In other words where's the federal troops?

However, it also rasies another answer!

D) In the gentle, brightness of the 21st millenium the is mainly peace!
Humans traded, worked and even lived with Eldar. Humans and Eldar, both open-minded and accepting people, got along with most races. Even stable mutations like Beastmen were not an uncommon sight among some of the multicultural planets. Sure there were some troublemaking human worlds that used violence but they were an exception and The Eldar wouldn't collectively punish the city-state-like race whom relations ahve mostly been positive with. When the Fall hit it hit the humans on the aforementioned worlds just as bad as the Eldar. These bastions of freedom and liberty were all but wiped out.



....might be going with "D" now...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Well that reraises the original question. Here we see frontier wars breaking out amongst the colonists. We know why the humans didn't get any support: they didn't really have a centralized goverment. However, the Eldar did so where's their backup? In other words where's the federal troops?

However, it also rasies another answer!

D) In the gentle, brightness of the 21st millenium the is mainly peace!
Humans traded, worked and even lived with Eldar. Humans and Eldar, both open-minded and accepting people, got along with most races. Even stable mutations like Beastmen were not an uncommon sight among some of the multicultural planets. Sure there were some troublemaking human worlds that used violence but they were an exception and The Eldar wouldn't collectively punish the city-state-like race whom relations ahve mostly been positive with. When the Fall hit it hit the humans on the aforementioned worlds just as bad as the Eldar. These bastions of freedom and liberty were all but wiped out.

Keep in mind that the Eldar in question were the Exodites, who had specifically moved out to those locations in order to get away from the decadence starting to become more and more prevalent in mainstream Eldar society. It's questionable whether or not they still would have had enough links back to their homeworlds to bring down the hammer on troublesome human interlopers. And it's also possible that the Exodites may have viewed the cure as being worse than the disease in this instance. For example, assume that the Exodites did call back home for help, and help arrived. Would the help leave when they finished? Or would the "help" decide that they wanted to stay? If the latter, then they'd probably bring along all of the issues that had caused the Exodites to flee in the first place.


And on an only loosely related note, I'm perpetually puzzled at why GW seems to have decided to cut the knights out of the tabletop. They were definitely a neat part of Epic, but GW seems to have done its level best to get rid of them (aside from the occasional mention in BL Titans novels).

Eumerin hit the nail on the head here. By the time of the Age of Strife the Eldar Empire was already falling into enough of a mess for Exodites to be leaving and starting up their own seperate, and vulnerable, colonies. And they would certainly be reluctant (and may not have the means) to call upon the aid of the Eldar from the decadent homeworlds.

A bit more to add on the Exodites

After the Eldar Fall, the craftworlds sought out the colonists to offer them a place on board. The Exodites coldly told their craftworld brethren that they preferred to stay where life was simple if harsh, and the dangers were obvious. Though the craftworlds and Exodite colonies trade with one another, the Exodites still maintain that the easy lifestyle on the craftworlds is dangerously close to that which brought the downfall of their race

Yeah, I overlooked the Exodite part. There's no way they would call back home for help as the core worlds have basically become Dark Eldar. In many ways a more bitter enemy than any aliens. Bout time those exodites got some tabletop representation.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yeah, I overlooked the Exodite part. There's no way they would call back home for help as the core worlds have basically become Dark Eldar. In many ways a more bitter enemy than any aliens. Bout time those exodites got some tabletop representation.

They did... sort of...

The Epic-scale Eldar Knights were supposed to be Exodites on-loan to the Craftworld armies. Unfortunately, GW cut them out of the final edition of Epic, and has studiously avoided mentioning them on the battlefield since. And the Ork Stompa, which was originally the ork counterpart to the Human and Eldar Knights, was increased in size for it's 40K release. I'd estimate that it's probably now about the same size as the Ork Slasha, which was the smaller-sized version of an Ork Gargant. All evidence suggests that GW is trying its best to "Squat" the knights.

Aside from that, you're correct. Exodites haven't shown up on the tabletop in any other form.