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Yeah, the Koreans made the same mistake in Homefront.

Melissia wrote:Yeah, the Koreans made the same mistake in Homefront.

Yeah...wait, what?

@Emperors Faithful
Why would I pull those numbers out of thin air,I presented high end and low end examples.Plus I provided the quotes.
Sabbath World Crusade numbers are all stated in the Gaunt's Ghost novel(or that Sabbath Crusade background book),they show to us what is the real Imperial offensive(I'll provide a quote later).

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:Yeah, the Koreans made the same mistake in Homefront.

Yeah...wait, what?

Videogame that takes place in an America where Korea has become expansionist and invades the West coast.

By the way, it's not the Sabbath Crusade. It's the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, named after Saint Sabbat. No H in her name.

As a side note, are you referring to the first Sabbat Worlds Crusade, or the second one?

IvanTih wrote:@Emperors Faithful
Why would I pull those numbers out of thin air,I presented high end and low end examples.Plus I provided the quotes.

'At 50 ships each'. You've provided no quote where it states the average fleet has 50 or so ships.

Sabbath World Crusade numbers are all stated in the Gaunt's Ghost novel(or that Sabbath Crusade background book),they show to us what is the real Imperial offensive(I'll provide a quote later).

So in comparison to a 'real' Imperial Offensive the Sabbat Crusades (no.2 I guess?) is a backwater affair? Please bear in mind that the Manchurian Crusades are something else entirely, having been the largest expansion since the initial Crusades they make any other Imperial expansion look miniscule.


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Melissia wrote:As a side note, are you referring to the first Sabbat Worlds Crusade, or the second one?

I'd guess he's talking about the second one, as the Gaunts Ghost novels don't go into any logistical detail regarding the initial conquest by Saint Sabbat.

*Macharian Crusade

the eldar were probably too busy with their decadence to noticde

Emperors Faithful wrote:That said, if the Fall ended the Age of Strife amongst humanity (by calming the Warp Storms), what caused it?

Wasn't it implied to have been caused by the Eldar's descent? Something about the Eldar consciousness being strong enough to survive in the warp long enough to reincarnate (whereas human minds were/are snuffed out within seconds), combined with the whole "death cult orgy" thing, to produce a whole lot of disembodied, tortured souls swirling about in the warp, stirring things up. Then they all sort of reached critical mass and fell into a singularity, creating Slaanesh, which silenced the disturbance they'd been making.

ChrisWWII wrote:*Macharian Crusade

Fool! You have it all wrong!

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:That said, if the Fall ended the Age of Strife amongst humanity (by calming the Warp Storms), what caused it?

Wasn't it implied to have been caused by the Eldar's descent? Something about the Eldar consciousness being strong enough to survive in the warp long enough to reincarnate (whereas human minds were/are snuffed out within seconds), combined with the whole "death cult orgy" thing, to produce a whole lot of disembodied, tortured souls swirling about in the warp, stirring things up. Then they all sort of reached critical mass and fell into a singularity, creating Slaanesh, which silenced the disturbance they'd been making.

The Age of Strife is reported to have occurred quite suddenly, whereas the descent of the Eldar was a relatively stretched out process up until the birth of Slaanesh.

@Emperors Faithful
Battlefleet Gothic for example.

Each battlefleet normally consists of between 50 and 75 warships of varying size,although in some sectors this will be more or less,

I assumed that every fleet had a 50 ships,even if I reduce the number of ships per fleet we still get large numbers.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:*Macharian Crusade

Fool! You have it all wrong!

Oh, sweet Emperor! The Imperium existed in 1931?!?! THE EMPEROR IS AMONG US!!!

IvanTih wrote:@Emperors Faithful
Battlefleet Gothic for example.

Each battlefleet normally consists of between 50 and 75 warships of varying size,although in some sectors this will be more or less,

I assumed that every fleet had a 50 ships,even if I reduce the number of ships per fleet we still get large numbers.

Ivan, you're making this Aussie's head hurt. Where are we going with this?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:That said, if the Fall ended the Age of Strife amongst humanity (by calming the Warp Storms), what caused it?

Wasn't it implied to have been caused by the Eldar's descent? Something about the Eldar consciousness being strong enough to survive in the warp long enough to reincarnate (whereas human minds were/are snuffed out within seconds), combined with the whole "death cult orgy" thing, to produce a whole lot of disembodied, tortured souls swirling about in the warp, stirring things up. Then they all sort of reached critical mass and fell into a singularity, creating Slaanesh, which silenced the disturbance they'd been making.

The Age of Strife is reported to have occurred quite suddenly, whereas the descent of the Eldar was a relatively stretched out process up until the birth of Slaanesh.

But is that necessarily to say that the warp was perfectly still prior? It's easy to assume that there may well be a critical point at which ships can no longer safely travel the warp, before which travel is little more dangerous than it usually it. Or perhaps a critical point where mere turbulence becomes storms.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:But is that necessarily to say that the warp was perfectly still prior? It's easy to assume that there may well be a critical point at which ships can no longer safely travel the warp, before which travel is little more dangerous than it usually it. Or perhaps a critical point where mere turbulence becomes storms.

That implies some sort of warning, that the steady rise in turbulence would point to the Warp being non-negotiable in the future. The Age of Strife was a very sudden malady that seemed to affect only Mankind (seeing the Eldar space travel was uninterrupted). If the Eldar really were the cause, would the warp storms be concentrated around the Eldar empire?

Either way, you are talking about fleets. Imperial Navy is so massive and has so many ships and worlds that I read in some codex it can take massive casualties (example 10.000 ships) and replace them in a matter of minutes. + Imperium is REALLY BIG empire, just check 40k galaxy map. You can't secure empire that size with only few million ships...
And about the Eldar and Humanity...they where friends once. Before the Fall Humanity lived in peace with most alien races, including the Eldar - even so they thing in those days that we are lesser species. In time of the fall, when Humanity is in need of help - noon help it. Even some alien races attack Human worlds and plunder them, including some Eldar pirates that escaped the Fall. That explains Human xenophobia and Emperor's teaching of non-trust to alien species.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

IvanTih wrote:@Emperors Faithful
Battlefleet Gothic for example.

Each battlefleet normally consists of between 50 and 75 warships of varying size,although in some sectors this will be more or less,

I assumed that every fleet had a 50 ships,even if I reduce the number of ships per fleet we still get large numbers.

Ivan, you're making this Aussie's head hurt. Where are we going with this?

Never.
Remember when the Imperium lost millions of ships(5th edition rulebook) due some alien cyborg being executed by the Black Templar marines.

Bran Dawri wrote:As to the original question, I liked old fluff more.

I know it's been retconned, but it used to be that the height (and fall) of the Eldar empire occurred a loooooooooong time before humanity even evolved, and that the Fall was the cause of the Warp storms that kept Humanity confined to the Solar System until the Dark Age of Technology.
In my mind, that's still how it is.

Ah Ha! See that's how it is in my mind too but I thought I had misremembered it. If it has indeed been retconned I must say I don't like it either for the question I've rasied here. We've basically got two empires in Golden Ages at the same. Fluff error from GW imo.

Well, the Fall of the ELdar was what ABATED the Warp Storms surronding Terra, not what caused them. But two empires weren't at their golden age at the sme time. The Eldar were long long on their way to the fall by the time humanity began spreading across the galaxy.

I would agree just not sure the official fluff agrees. They're described as being at the height of their power at the time of the fall and holding sway over the galaxy http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Fall. Yet humans were more widespread.
Eldar were never a prolific people but even during their peak (whenever that may have been) it probably took almost all of their military might to control the Ork problem. During the last few millenia when they just didn't give a crap anymore I would guess Army enrollment was at an all-time low and the Ork problem would have been even worse. Perhaps they saw the humans rising but couldn't do anything but say "well, at least they ain't Orks".

Personaly evven though they are a dwindling bunch i think that the eldar still have alot of life left. I do have to agree with the fact that they would die in a full fleged fight with the IoM but lets be realistic the imperium is to big and to clumsy to take down the eldar. Thier like the romans before Hanible only knowing how to do one thing. On a side note he way i see it the eldar have two choices One take back thier Empire through the Biel-Tan stratigy or they can die out let a new god be born who would kill thier gratest rival Slaanesh and he would be able to revive the whole of the eldar race. To me it seems its all good.


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And Chris WWII is right the birth of Slaanesh is what stopped the warp storms hence forth the eldars old empire out dates mans new one.


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Plus orcs wernt a big problem back then they were both working for the Old Ones because they were both made by them.Orcs were ushaly off fighting Necrons and that gave a big gaping whole in the eldar way of life which created the rainy day theory... And thats a story for another time.

IvanTih wrote:Never.
Remember when the Imperium lost millions of ships(5th edition rulebook) due some alien cyborg being executed by the Black Templar marines.

Never what? I'm honestly confused here.


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Eldrad wrote:Plus orcs wernt a big problem back then they were both working for the Old Ones because they were both made by them.Orcs were ushaly off fighting Necrons and that gave a big gaping whole in the eldar way of life which created the rainy day theory... And thats a story for another time.

I think you've seriously messed up your timeline here, the Old Ones were (dead) and gone long before the Eldar Empire reached its peak. Orks weren't really a threat because Eldar were just that powerful and secure in their might.

For those saying the Eldar couldn't destroy the Imperium I belive they could but not without destroying themselves.

In the Black Library (in the webway) they have their weapons of last resort which are horrifically powerful.

I'll need to go back and check for sources but I think they have the ability to remove the the barriers between real space and the warp that would doom everyone.

Not sure why they'd do this though.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Never.
Remember when the Imperium lost millions of ships(5th edition rulebook) due some alien cyborg being executed by the Black Templar marines.

Never what? I'm honestly confused here.

I won't end this debate with you over the number of the Imperial Navy's ships.

IvanTih wrote:@Emperors Faithful
Battlefleet Gothic for example.

Each battlefleet normally consists of between 50 and 75 warships of varying size,although in some sectors this will be more or less,

I assumed that every fleet had a 50 ships,even if I reduce the number of ships per fleet we still get large numbers.

Capital Ships seem somewhat sparse, for Imperial Standards anyway. In Battlefleet Gothic it seems like a major Battlefleet may "only" have 2-3 Battleships and most fluff has a Cruiser leading an entire military operation.

The flip side here is how many sectors the Imperium has, the Milky Way Galaxy is roughly 90,000 Light Years across and 15,000 Light Years thick. According to Lexicanum an Imperial Sector is roughly 200 Light Years Long. You can do the math to figure out how many Sector Battlefleets there are from there as I'm a lazy Jew.

Well, the Eldar are still powerful... I mean, Maugan-Ra stood alone against a Tyranid swarm and won.

At any rate, the Eldar race is dwindling, however, I believe the Eldar could severely damage the Imperium, even with their current numbers.

Their stealth is seemingly what is keeping them alive, however, an all-out war COULD end in MAD as Ivan stated, if the Dark Eldar participated as well...

ChrisWWII wrote:Well, the Fall of the ELdar was what ABATED the Warp Storms surronding Terra, not what caused them. But two empires weren't at their golden age at the sme time. The Eldar were long long on their way to the fall by the time humanity began spreading across the galaxy.

We are not talking about the IoM we are talking about the original human empire:

Dark age of technology - what is actually the golden age of man
Age of strife - fall of the golden age of man. caused in part by the fall of the Eldar, by human made AI, the evolution of New Men etc, the universe is covered in warpstorms
Great Crusade - birth of Slannesh causing the destruction of the Eldar empire, warpstorms deminish allowing the Emperor of Terra to leave the Sol system
IoM

The timeline as presented by GW clearly shows that the Eldar had an empire at the same time as Humans. The fall was only possible due to the prosperity and strength of the Eldar empire at the time, allowing the Eldar to act as they did, showing that the Eldar empire was at its peak at the same time as the great expansion of humanity.

I WAS talking about the pre-Imperium human empire. Yes, both existed at the same time, but they were not at their peak at the same time. The Eldar empire had been in decline for hundreds, if not thousands of years by the time the human race was spreading around the galaxy.

The Fall had begun a long time before, if we accept what the rulebook says about the Eldar empire existing when humans weren't even a species yet. They had reached their peak, and were at full dominance of space, and THEN began the thosand of years of decadence that slowly created Slaanesh. SO yes, the Eldar and human empires existed at the same time, but by the time the human empire was established, the Eldar were most liekly 100% focused on themselves, and their sheer decadence.

I think in the end that surviving Eldar will fled to the Halo zone and rebuild their race for the final stand against Chaos. Or few surviving Eldar Farseers will realize that, even if they are "apes" to them, ignorant and xenophobic - Humans represent their best hope for defeating the Chaos gods. And they will secretly meld with Human population across the Imperium and in the end there will be Human-Eldar hybrids all across the Imperium that will prepare for the last battle with Chaos. But that's just me, what will happen next only GW knows...

ChrisWWII wrote:I WAS talking about the pre-Imperium human empire. Yes, both existed at the same time, but they were not at their peak at the same time. The Eldar empire had been in decline for hundreds, if not thousands of years by the time the human race was spreading around the galaxy.

The Fall had begun a long time before, if we accept what the rulebook says about the Eldar empire existing when humans weren't even a species yet. They had reached their peak, and were at full dominance of space, and THEN began the thosand of years of decadence that slowly created Slaanesh. SO yes, the Eldar and human empires existed at the same time, but by the time the human empire was established, the Eldar were most liekly 100% focused on themselves, and their sheer decadence.

So then you subscribe to the 15,000+ year long fall theory then. I suppose I do too. Just wish GW would stop saying Eldar were at their peak at the time of collapse, obviously things were not going well at all.