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Fantastic news! It seems they are getting their stuff together, I look forward to seeing what they come up with. I am also curious to see how the prices will be effected.

Agamemnon2 wrote:The moral of the story appears clear. China is poison for wargames.

What a foolish and unfounded statement, totally lacking in any factual basis.

China may be poison for inexperienced, poorly-capitalized wargames companies with little business sense, trying only to cut corners on price while not properly specifying quality and process. Other companies do quite well.

Is Forgeworld China a problem? No. GW had enough lawyers to ensure that their entry into China went OK.

Mongoose, WGF, etc. probably went in looking for price first, and got what they paid for.

I have no pity for them than a scrawny 16-year-old with a couple years wrestling experience going mano-a-mano against a pro ring fighter.
____

fixed.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:The moral of the story appears clear. China is poison for inexperienced, poorly-capitalized wargames companies with little business sense, trying only to cut corners on price while not properly specifying quality and process.

Is Forgeworld China a problem? No. GW had enough lawyers to ensure that their entry into China went OK.

Thats because Forgeworld China doesn't exist. I need to know where this rumor came from, and destroy the source. It is the most persistent and untrue rumor I have ever seen. Worse still, it is easily verifiable as being false. A few months ago I had the same argument with someone else, so I contacted the Forgeworld/GW customer service reps. All FW/GW minis (and most other products) are made in Nottingham, England, with the exception of codecies, paints, product bags/boxes, and certain miscellaneous accessories which are produced in China/the US, but the facilities that these are produced at are the most part owned and operated by GW, rather than outsourced to foreign companies. Forgeworld specifically stated to me that ALL their models were made in England.

In fact, GW did get burned by Chinese production in the recent past. Remember the planetstrike terrain markers that everyone complained about? The ultra flimsy vaccuum-formed plastic that so many people hate? THAT was made in China, GW went so far to acknowledge that the production was not up to par and that they were using a 3rd party chinese company to manufacture them, and offered free replacement/credit to everyone that sent theirs back in.

chaos0xomega wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:The moral of the story appears clear. China is poison for inexperienced, poorly-capitalized wargames companies with little business sense, trying only to cut corners on price while not properly specifying quality and process.

Is Forgeworld China a problem? No. GW had enough lawyers to ensure that their entry into China went OK.

Thats because Forgeworld China doesn't exist. I need to know where this rumor came from, and destroy the source. It is the most persistent and untrue rumor I have ever seen. Worse still, it is easily verifiable as being false. A few months ago I had the same argument with someone else, so I contacted the Forgeworld/GW customer service reps. All FW/GW minis (and most other products) are made in Nottingham, England, with the exception of codecies, paints, product bags/boxes, and certain miscellaneous accessories which are produced in China/the US, but the facilities that these are produced at are the most part owned and operated by GW, rather than outsourced to foreign companies. Forgeworld specifically stated to me that ALL their models were made in England.

In fact, GW did get burned by Chinese production in the recent past. Remember the planetstrike terrain markers that everyone complained about? The ultra flimsy vaccuum-formed plastic that so many people hate? THAT was made in China, GW went so far to acknowledge that the production was not up to par and that they were using a 3rd party chinese company to manufacture them, and offered free replacement/credit to everyone that sent theirs back in.

I have Elysian models that came from China. Said so on the tab, even had a topic about it a year or so ago.

Also, Space Hulk was made in China.

Go ahead, kill me, boy.

BrookM wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:The moral of the story appears clear. China is poison for inexperienced, poorly-capitalized wargames companies with little business sense, trying only to cut corners on price while not properly specifying quality and process.

Is Forgeworld China a problem? No. GW had enough lawyers to ensure that their entry into China went OK.

Thats because Forgeworld China doesn't exist. I need to know where this rumor came from, and destroy the source. It is the most persistent and untrue rumor I have ever seen. Worse still, it is easily verifiable as being false. A few months ago I had the same argument with someone else, so I contacted the Forgeworld/GW customer service reps. All FW/GW minis (and most other products) are made in Nottingham, England, with the exception of codecies, paints, product bags/boxes, and certain miscellaneous accessories which are produced in China/the US, but the facilities that these are produced at are the most part owned and operated by GW, rather than outsourced to foreign companies. Forgeworld specifically stated to me that ALL their models were made in England.

In fact, GW did get burned by Chinese production in the recent past. Remember the planetstrike terrain markers that everyone complained about? The ultra flimsy vaccuum-formed plastic that so many people hate? THAT was made in China, GW went so far to acknowledge that the production was not up to par and that they were using a 3rd party chinese company to manufacture them, and offered free replacement/credit to everyone that sent theirs back in.

I have Elysian models that came from China. Said so on the tab, even had a topic about it a year or so ago.

Also, Space Hulk was made in China.

Go ahead, kill me, boy.

Yeah, Space Hulk would probably be one of the miscellaneous accessories I mentioned. But considering that a FW rep explicitly stated that all FW minis are cast in Nottingham England, I'm taking his word over yours. Granted, I suppose that can't mean that mold production is outsourced overseas... :shrug:. At the very least, I know the minis themselves are made in the UK.

I...

chaos0xomega wrote:

BrookM wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:The moral of the story appears clear. China is poison for inexperienced, poorly-capitalized wargames companies with little business sense, trying only to cut corners on price while not properly specifying quality and process.

Is Forgeworld China a problem? No. GW had enough lawyers to ensure that their entry into China went OK.

Thats because Forgeworld China doesn't exist. I need to know where this rumor came from, and destroy the source. It is the most persistent and untrue rumor I have ever seen. Worse still, it is easily verifiable as being false. A few months ago I had the same argument with someone else, so I contacted the Forgeworld/GW customer service reps. All FW/GW minis (and most other products) are made in Nottingham, England, with the exception of codecies, paints, product bags/boxes, and certain miscellaneous accessories which are produced in China/the US, but the facilities that these are produced at are the most part owned and operated by GW, rather than outsourced to foreign companies. Forgeworld specifically stated to me that ALL their models were made in England.

In fact, GW did get burned by Chinese production in the recent past. Remember the planetstrike terrain markers that everyone complained about? The ultra flimsy vaccuum-formed plastic that so many people hate? THAT was made in China, GW went so far to acknowledge that the production was not up to par and that they were using a 3rd party chinese company to manufacture them, and offered free replacement/credit to everyone that sent theirs back in.

I have Elysian models that came from China. Said so on the tab, even had a topic about it a year or so ago.

Also, Space Hulk was made in China.

Go ahead, kill me, boy.

Yeah, Space Hulk would probably be one of the miscellaneous accessories I mentioned. But considering that a FW rep explicitly stated that all FW minis are cast in Nottingham England, I'm taking his word over yours. Granted, I suppose that can't mean that mold production is outsourced overseas... :shrug:. At the very least, I know the minis themselves are made in the UK.

I'm sorry but most if not all Forge World products I ordered in the last months had "made in china" on their baggies.

Perhaps the bag was made in China?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:The moral of the story appears clear. China is poison for inexperienced, poorly-capitalized wargames companies with little business sense, trying only to cut corners on price while not properly specifying quality and process.

Is Forgeworld China a problem? No. GW had enough lawyers to ensure that their entry into China went OK.

Please quote me accurately or not at all. I do not appreciate words being put in my mouth, for any reason. Anything else is disrespectful or aimed at misdirection.

GW had enough problems with production in CHina, remember the announced modular gras covered battleground that was never produced or the other board that had a price increase of 50 pound after announcement, to name just 2.

There have been numerous production issues with GW Shanghai. Here are just a few I know about:

- Traces amounts of lead in the early runs of Iyanden Darksun
- Book binding issues, severe ones. When GW first moved their book binding to China it took more than a year to eliminate the 5-10% of new game books just fall apart problem. It started with the current Dark Elf army book and lasted till just before Codex Imperial Guard before I saw a major improvement in that issue.
- The Tyranid Codex release was delayed last year due to a major printing error apparently having to do with the English language books being printed in an entirely different language, thus having to be reprinted.
- As previously mentioned, the Realm Of Battle board had two price increases before it was even released.

Now Wargames Factory sounds like they are making an earnest effort to stay in business, so before everyone goes snapping up all of their Shock Troops to sell at inflated prices after the company goes out of business, it might be better to think twice about that strategy.

I would just add China does not a quality control problem. There are a lot of high end things done in China and, because of years of driving higher-priced compeditors out of business, there are some things that now can only be done in China like pop-up books.

What there is is a serious rule of law and trust issue in China. Contracts are hard to enforce and even if your contractor is on the up and up his suppliers might not be.

Manufacuring in China is where the US and other countries were decades ago, everyone looks to cut costs and if they think they can get away with using inferor componants or cheaper processes they will.

But with due dilligence and TIGHT supervision companies can and do make high quality, safe, items there.

Hopefully Wargames Factory will come out of this intact. That second missive to the community is full of nice sentiments, but we'll see if any of them actually manifest into tangible improvement/survival for the company.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:The moral of the story appears clear. China is poison for wargames.

What a foolish and unfounded statement, totally lacking in any factual basis.

China may be poison for inexperienced, poorly-capitalized wargames companies with little business sense, trying only to cut corners on price while not properly specifying quality and process. Other companies do quite well.

Is Forgeworld China a problem? No. GW had enough lawyers to ensure that their entry into China went OK.

Please quote me accurately or not at all. I do not appreciate words being put in my mouth, for any reason. Anything else is disrespectful or aimed at misdirection.

When you make a sweeping and untrue statement that is completely false, it invites ridicule.

That said, I will correct it, and edit my post to restore what you originally said. My edit made you look more erudite than your original post suggests.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrassScorpion wrote:- Book binding issues, severe ones. When GW first moved their book binding to China it took more than a year to eliminate the 5-10% of new game books just fall apart problem. It started with the current Dark Elf army book and lasted till just before Codex Imperial Guard before I saw a major improvement in that issue.

So with a 5-10% failure rate, I guess Chinese bookbinders are roughly 5 to 10 times better than GW's bookbinders. Anybody with a 3rd Edition 40k paperback rulebook completely intact? How about one of their 5 lb ~2000 mega catalogs? I think both of those books fell apart without the slightest provocation.
____

edited to correct quote and include proper comments, also Rule 1.

Actually, my 3rd Edition Rule Book is intact. The initial print run had a problem with the cover coming off. GW replaced them without question. The replacement I got is still good to this day. Problems did occasionally arise back then with GW products as with any company, but I never had the kind of continuous problems with every new book I bought for over a year like when they first moved to the new binder a few years ago. The Codex and similar books just before that change were of good quality for the few years before that, then suddenly there was a huge problem with every new book release for more than a year. That's not the same as the singular problem with the initial release of 3rd edition's main rules.

BrookM wrote:

Also, Space Hulk was made in China.

To add to that list...
Fortress of Redemption
Witch fate tor
dreadstone blight
Some of the cases (large ones for sure)

My suspicion is the so called "splash" releases are being done in china. Large batches that can sold without having to keep stock makes sense when you have to ship it long distances.

The Figure Cases and Army Cases are made at GW Shanghai as are many of the scenery kits. Some resin items like the Barricades are too.

@all: Please be mindful of Rule Number One and keep this discussion polite. Thanks!

BrassScorpion wrote:Actually, my 3rd Edition Rule Book is intact. The initial print run had a problem with the cover coming off. GW replaced them without question.

Problems did occasionally arise back then with GW products as with any company, but I never had the kind of continuous problems with every new book I bought for over a year like when they first moved to the new binder a few years ago. The Codex and similar books just before that change were of good quality for the few years before that, then suddenly there was a huge problem with every new book release for more than a year.

My 3rd Ed book *almost* made it to the end of 3rd, before the cover came off. I thought I had a "good" one for many, many years. Haha.

I haven't had a problem with any of my 4E or newer Codices or books, and I buy at least 1 Codex a year, simply to keep my armies up. Maybe I'm lucky? Or you're getting the level of quality that GW didn't pay for when they pushed for cost over content?

Like any company, there's a cost/quality tradeoff, and in China, they are more than happy to quote you a rock bottom price for a rock bottom product. That isn't the manufacturer's fault, because they're just delivering what was paid for. Otherwise, I'd just pay Aggie $10 for a pound of lead, and expect him to deliver a pound of gold worth $14k. It's almost identical, so he should have no problem with this.

Well back on topic...

WGF seems to still be running. A buddy of mine placed an order two days ago, and it is already being processed! So this is good news, although there is definitely some price gouging going on already. With some searching though (Google.com) you can find some great prices! *cough*$13 Shock Troops!*cough*

MadMaverick76 wrote:With some searching though (Google.com) you can find some great prices! *cough*$13 Shock Troops!*cough*

If you mean the ones that Google Shopping lists for $13.99, I would warn you that the seller has them listed as being out of stock/backordered.

SkaerKrow wrote:

MadMaverick76 wrote:With some searching though (Google.com) you can find some great prices! *cough*$13 Shock Troops!*cough*

If you mean the ones that Google Shopping lists for $13.99, I would warn you that the seller has them listed as being out of stock/backordered.

Nope, not CCG Armory, I ordered some SW stuff a while ago from them, WORSE EXPERIENCE EVER! Anyway, I found them from another online retailer for $12.71.

MadMaverick76 wrote:

SkaerKrow wrote:

MadMaverick76 wrote:With some searching though (Google.com) you can find some great prices! *cough*$13 Shock Troops!*cough*

If you mean the ones that Google Shopping lists for $13.99, I would warn you that the seller has them listed as being out of stock/backordered.

Nope, not CCG Armory, I ordered some SW stuff a while ago from them, WORSE EXPERIENCE EVER! Anyway, I found them from another online retailer for $12.71.

I'm guessing you're not sharing the source?

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I would just add China does not a quality control problem. There are a lot of high end things done in China and, because of years of driving higher-priced compeditors out of business, there are some things that now can only be done in China like pop-up books.

What there is is a serious rule of law and trust issue in China. Contracts are hard to enforce and even if your contractor is on the up and up his suppliers might not be.

Manufacuring in China is where the US and other countries were decades ago, everyone looks to cut costs and if they think they can get away with using inferor componants or cheaper processes they will.

But with due dilligence and TIGHT supervision companies can and do make high quality, safe, items there.

no quality control problem? in a country where companies are willing to poison their own infants' baby formula with the same chemical used to coat bargain priced wood panels at home depot in order to save some cash vs using real milk... despite this causing death and (more commonly) kidney failure in babies? i'd say that's a quality problem and our complaints about toy soldier props and the books that go with them are WAAAAAAAAAY down the list of things that need to be looked at regarding chinese quality control.

also, when did you become a pop-up book afficionado? have we discovered the secret other hobby of one of our mods?!?!

chaos0xomega wrote:

MadMaverick76 wrote:

SkaerKrow wrote:

MadMaverick76 wrote:With some searching though (Google.com) you can find some great prices! *cough*$13 Shock Troops!*cough*

If you mean the ones that Google Shopping lists for $13.99, I would warn you that the seller has them listed as being out of stock/backordered.

Nope, not CCG Armory, I ordered some SW stuff a while ago from them, WORSE EXPERIENCE EVER! Anyway, I found them from another online retailer for $12.71.

I'm guessing you're not sharing the source?

No by all means I will, no one asked.

http://www.superherogameland.com

warboss wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I would just add China does not a quality control problem. There are a lot of high end things done in China and, because of years of driving higher-priced compeditors out of business, there are some things that now can only be done in China like pop-up books.

What there is is a serious rule of law and trust issue in China. Contracts are hard to enforce and even if your contractor is on the up and up his suppliers might not be.

Manufacuring in China is where the US and other countries were decades ago, everyone looks to cut costs and if they think they can get away with using inferor componants or cheaper processes they will.

But with due dilligence and TIGHT supervision companies can and do make high quality, safe, items there.

no quality control problem? in a country where companies are willing to poison their own infants' baby formula with the same chemical used to coat bargain priced wood panels at home depot in order to save some cash vs using real milk... despite this causing death and (more commonly) kidney failure in babies? i'd say that's a quality problem and our complaints about toy soldier props and the books that go with them are WAAAAAAAAAY down the list of things that need to be looked at regarding chinese quality control.

also, when did you become a pop-up book afficionado? have we discovered the secret other hobby of one of our mods?!?!

Oh there are problems, but QC is not the root of it.

The baby formula cut with industrial plastics was not a mistake, not an accident, not an opps, it was a deliberate policy pursued by manufacurers who felt they'd never be caught, or at least never be punished.

And as it happens the Chinese government and media knew about this but kept it out of the press for months because they didn't want any bad news coming out during the Olympics. (And the IOC said nothing before, during or after while kids were drinking poison).

this is what I mean by QC vs rule of law. It's not that Chinese companies cannot do good work, the problem is a corrupt system that offers no recourse when they do not. So it's not sloppy Chinese work, it's something far far worse.

As for the pop up books I worked in children's books for a few years and yes, our only suppliers for a lot of the gimmicy stuff like pop-ups were Chinese.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Oh there are problems, but QC is not the root of it.

Lets agree on this:
Most low end factories indeed have a quality control problem (plus often human rights and ecological problems as well), while most high end companies manage to produce high quality products with high quality control. GW had some problems with Chinese manufacturers, sometimes due to quality control, sometimes due to communication. But sometimes things worked out with no problems.

All of GW's resin scenery products are made in china as are forge world items as stated on the package I got from forge world but the quality has gone up in most items since they started producing stuff there.

As to war games factory I hope they make it the great coat guys look usable for an army on the cheap and I am considering buying some for a platoon in my army I am waiting for the heavy weapons to be made to jump in the pool.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

So with a 5-10% failure rate, I guess Chinese bookbinders are roughly 5 to 10 times better than GW's bookbinders. Anybody with a 3rd Edition 40k paperback rulebook completely intact? How about one of their 5 lb ~2000 mega catalogs? I think both of those books fell apart without the slightest provocation.

Actually my 3rd edition rule book is perfectly fine.......

For what its worth my 3rd edition book is ok , as is the 1st edition and the second edition as well but besides....

WGF has posted some new previews for samurai ( at least that is keeping some people happy)
The strange thing is that these models look like those very common 3 up's so it seems that ( for this range) the concept of 3d concepts on the computer has been abandonned.

Still no news from my orc preorder though.

But if they manage to bring those say around march then some serious will hit the proverbal fan ( why no smily for a propellor ?)