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Hahaha whaaaaaaaaaaat.

Hulksmash is referring to what happened at the end of "Fallen Angels". This was before the Istvaanian Drop Site Massacre, before when Perturabo was known to be in league with Horus.
He gave the equipment over because he knew the Iron Warriors were one of the Legions gathering to 'punish' Horus.

The call from Guilliman came after the Istvaanian Drop Site Massacre, and likely has Jonson in a bit of a funk because he handed over a weapon that will no doubt be used to kill further Loyalists and their fortifications to what were arguably at the time the ultimate besiegers.

My point was that Jonson comes across as an opportunist and that his suspicions may be part envy/jealousy that Guilliman may be staking his claim to leadership of the empire.

Though considering the times, I don't think anyone is doubting why one would be suspicious of their own when others are turning.

BrookM has made the same points I have, though he has explained them better...lol!

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:Yeah, I didn't use to like him because everyone who knew more about 40k than me didn't like him. But then I started to learn about 40k and realized that folks just didn't like him apparently because he was . . . really awesome? Too awesome? Really? He's actually a great character and very interesting.

I really hate to say it, but he's really not that interesting or great as it stands now. He wrote the Codex Astartes, but that's really his 'big claim to fame' right now.
Does this mean he's necessarily "boring"? No. But there's just not too much to get excited about that we know about now.

I don't know if you two are still debating this, but ultimately I'd say things like "boring"/"interesting" are subjective and aren't really worth arguing about IMHO. I respect Manchu's opinion of Guilliman; I must agree with it a lot, but I still have my qualms about him...

BrookM wrote:Guilleman is preparing for all possible eventualities, hence squaring his men off against Legions both traitorous and loyal. It could be that he is foreseeing how the march on Terra will go and that he is preparing the the period known as the Scouring, when the Ultras were everywhere putting out fires and keeping the Imperium together. Mind you, this is just me thinking out loud.

I like this idea actually, it's fairly reasonable. We know Guilliman was [most] skilled with logistics, maybe, rather than intending to 'replace' the Emperor as Jonson suggests in AoD, Guilliman was actually preparing for what he thought (and did) would happen after the HH - i.e. the scouring and hunting of the traitor Legions. Like Brook, this is just me thinking aloud mind...

Manchu wrote:At first, I read "Magnus had no ego." Fortunately, I caught my mistake before my head exploded!

I did exactly the same thing!

Manchu wrote:Russ, for example, was designed to serve a purpose: as an attack dog to keep traitorous Astartes in line. What might Guilliman's purpose have been?

. . . a backup Imperium -- so that the Emperor's vision would survive in part even in the case all went to gak (i.e., what actually happened)?

Russ was a bit more than that (an attack dog against everything; the ultimate weapon IMHO), but that's a minor point...
I can't remember where, it may have been in one of the earlier HH novels, but I think it was mentioned how Guilliman was the most capable logician and would have been the Emperors successor; where Horus could conquer, Guilliman could sustain? Similar to your view really...

Kanluwen wrote:But to be fair, every Primarch seems to think he might have been Warmaster.

That's an over-exaggeration and then some I'd say.

---

It must be said, one of the great things about the HH series is how it raises as many questions as it answers and is a great point for debate...
I must re-read my ranking the primarchs thread to see how things compared to then and now...

I've been thinking about this for a long while, after reading Descent of Angels / Fallen Angels.

The way I see it, Johnson is essentially the 40k equivalent of (picking your poison..) Sherlock Holmes / Dr House.

Sadly, I'm more familiar with House than the Holmes novels, so I'm going to have to give my analogies that way.

Essentially, Johnson was to fighting a war, as House/Holmes is to solving (medical) mysteries.

And Then you have Luther as Johnson's Wilson/Watson (the heart, to the head). And, that's where all the Dark Angels tragedy comes from, him separating himself from his counterweight.

Johnson probably thought he should be Warmaster because he saw himself as The Master of War, but, without Luther, he's incapable of sympathising enough with people. Unlike either Horus or Gulliman (Though Sanguinius or Vulkan would be top on the 'people' role I think).

I'm not sure how much Savage Weapons confirms or invalidates my theory. The 'dishonourable blow' on Curze would, say, match House's focus on solving the mystery (winning the war), over hospital rules?


I'm probably rambling now, since it's 1:20am, so I'm going to stop....

I think that's a great analogy regarding the head to the heart.

Kanluwen wrote:
The Lion's ignorance of the problems inherent to his own Legion had more to do with his lack of understanding when it came to the mind of Luther and those he sent back to Caliban. He sent them back not out of disgust or shame, but because it was necessary.

Those he sent back to Caliban viewed it as an insult.

I haven't read Age of Darkness yet (next on the list), but having just finished the two DA books, how was it necessary? If his intent was for them to protect Caliban, he could have given them some direction, rather than ignoring their communications for 50 years. It seems the Emperor's biggest mistake in microcosm.

We didn't know that Cypher was the title of the Chief Librarian of the Dark Angels until "Fallen Angels".

He wasn't a Librarian, at least not in the psyker sense. He maintained a history of their rituals and traditions.

Then explain why he made a point of ordering the texts seized from the last bastion of one of the opposing orders, which was harboring Beasts, to be destroyed.

And yet he appointed the last surviving member of the Knights of Lupus to be the Lord Cypher. /boggle

That part made no damn sense to me.

Manchu wrote:- I really disagree about the "Word Bearer manufacturing the Heresy." That's giving Lorgar way, way too much credit. In fact, more credit goes to Erebus than Lorgar. In any case, Lorgar is ironically a sideshow everywhere but in First Heretic. The Ruinous Powers are interested in Horus, not Lorgar.

He's a side show even there. He gets led around by Kor Phaeron and Erebus pretty much the entire time. You can almost see his lower lip quivering.

The punch is a throw-away nothing. There are better ways to show Lorgar is a brat, which ADB eventually gets down to. But while he had Lorgar and Guilliman on the same planet, ADB could not seem to resist mussing Guilliman's dignity. It's not really important to the story at hand, or the characters, or the overarching plot.

Lorgar did also pop Guilliman in the chest with his mace in First Heretic.

Checks thread title...

Omegus wrote:
I haven't read Age of Darkness yet...

Uh oh...

I was going to say something at the time, but I figured you might know something I don't. However, now that I have read the book, nothing about my prior comments/questions has been invalidated. But I do thank you for your generous non-contribution.

Wow, way to be an ass. Just so you know, the little blinking ork means he's joking.

Also, I believe the "Uh Oh" was that there have been spoilers in this thread, not contradicting anything you wrote.

In short, lighten up.

Yeah, pretty much...

Oh well!

Age of Darkness was a good read for the most part...Iron Within being my fav of the lot bar the ending of Face of Treachery, didn't see that coming so it was cool to see who aided Corax in his escape

But as for Guilliman/Jonson, I think the Lion is just being a bit of a moody emo for not being able to get to Dorn's side in the palace

No doubt about it though that Guilliman is exceptionally egotistical writing a book to demand all legions fight as per his way!

Bring on Fulgrim fighting him and putting him in his place

It wasn't Fulgrim, though, not exactly.

you guys totally ruined this thread for me

*edit* the constant back and forth about Guilliman vs Johnson starting at page 2, totally ruined this thread for me.