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There is a problem with that theory, however: namely, everything else we know about the post-heresy era. Between the setting of Savage Weapons and M41 the Ultramarines have done exactly nothing (direct rule of Ultramar aside) to validate the Lion's accusatory musings. This despite the perfect opportunity: Guilliman basically ruled in the period leading up to the Second Founding -- Dorn was mentally shattered, the Lion was missing (as far as we know), and the others were either traitors, not interested in taking on the burden, or already dead. But he did not remain in that authority past the immediate crisis. (Let's not forget, there was not necessarily a vacancy: we don't know exactly what the Golden Throne implies about the Emperor.) Furthermore, the Codex Astartes does not square with the Lion's opinion. If you were power hungry and in a position of numerical superiority over all rivals, why would you voluntarily split your forces? Strikes me as pandering to the same old Ultra-hate. No surprise coming from ADB. He already gave us a taste of this when he had the Aurelian punch Guilliman in the face.

Manchu wrote:There is a problem with that theory, however: namely, everything else we know about the post-heresy era. Between the setting of Savage Weapons and M41 the Ultramarines have done exactly nothing (direct rule of Ultramar aside) to validate the Lion's accusatory musings.

Really? Summoning another Legion to your side isn't validating the Lion's "accusatory musings"?

I mean, if Guilliman had 'requested' the Dark Angels to come to him--then it likely would have been a different story. But 'summoning' an equal is kind of presumptuous and validates what the Lion's saying perfectly for the timeframe.

This despite the perfect opportunity: Guilliman basically ruled in the period leading up to the Second Founding -- Dorn was mentally shattered, the Lion was missing (as far as we know), and the others were either traitors, not interested in taking on the burden, or already dead. But he did not remain in that authority past the immediate crisis. (Let's not forget, there was not necessarily a vacancy: we don't know exactly what the Golden Throne implies about the Emperor.)

And while Guilliman basically ruled, he also pushed the Imperium absurdly close to a second Heresy because things had to be done his way.

Furthermore, the Codex Astartes does not square with the Lion's opinion. If you were power hungry and in a position of numerical superiority over all rivals, why would you voluntarily split your forces?

By that same token, if you were power hungry and in a position of numerical superiority over all rivals, what better way to split your rivals than to pass down a decree forcing them to further split their forces?
Remember that the Codex Astartes came about after the Heresy, and after Jonson had vanished. He has no way of seeing it come about, nor of actually knowing that Guilliman was doing what he felt was "in the best interest of the Empire".

Strikes me as pandering to the same old Ultra-hate. No surprise coming from ADB. He already gave us a taste of this when he had the Aurelian punch Guilliman in the face.

Really? You thought that was "Ultra-hate"?

I kind of thought it was more Word Bearer hate, showing how much of a petulant brat Lorgar was.

Well, stop and consider this: at the end of the Heresy, a few legions still had forces to at least rival the Ultramarines.

Now almost every new Space Marine chapter produced is derived from the Ultramarines, and almost all of them revere Guilliman.

What if he wasn't actually poisoned by Fulgrim at all, but this is rather a master stroke in the Long War. Guilliman sits in stasis until the right moment, and instantly has a force to rival anything in the universe when he awakes.

Well of course everything looks rosey...History is written by the victors Manchu






"What if he wasn't actually poisoned by Fulgrim at all, but this is rather a master stroke in the Long War. Guilliman sits in stasis until the right moment, and instantly has a force to rival anything in the universe when he awakes."

Where did this bit of fluff come from? I thought I remembered Gulliman having deathwounds which people swore were slowly healing (though I think that bit was from second edition)

Please, everyone knows ADB has Loyalist Marine Hate!

Have to agree with Manchu - RG and the Ultras held the Imperium together - they didn't take it over, despite what GW and MW would have us think! (Sorry - couldn't resist!)

I see this as more of a 'humanizing' of the "Perfect Primarch" - and it makes him that much more impressive now.

In order:

- Guilliman's character is established as practical and efficient; if the Lion needs urgent communications sugar-coated then it's no wonder his boys wear dresses

- Codex Astartes has prevented another Horus Heresy for 10,000 years (imagine if a man like Lugft Huron controlled a legion rather than a chapter); if you think about the crisis, Dorn was teetering on the edge of corruption and it was he rather than Guilliman who threatened a second Heresy

- math time: let's say I have a hundred thousand guys and you have ten thousand; I insist we split our forces into groups of one thousand; so now we each have one thousand; I don't see how this puts you at a disadvantage but I clearly see how this disadvantages me

- as noted above Codex Astartes was objectively in the best interests of the Imperium; the Lion's ignorance of the problems inherent to his own Legion much less the Legion-level of organization more generally is a testament against his alleged brilliance

- true, Lorgar came across as a brat; even so, Guilliman got punched in the face and I call that fanservice (haterservice?) -- imagine a novel in which Mat Ward got punched in the face; same thing


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Hulksmash: Sanguinius is another Primarch touched by Chaos (more literally than the Lion; approaching the level of Magnus) and he is the paragon of filial love, whereas the Lion's reputation has always been shadowy.

The fluff you're thinking of (Guilliman's poisoned neck wound from Daemon-Fulgrim slowly healing) is in McNeill's first Ultra-novel but I don't know if it's original to McNeill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:Guilliman sits in stasis until the right moment, and instantly has a force to rival anything in the universe when he awakes.

But this is not the case -- although almost all Chapters descend from the Ultras and revere Guilliman as an ancestor, they do not (seem to) have any formal relationship among them that would instantly "re-legion-ize" the Ultramarines. This conspiracy theory is one of the main pillars of Ultra-hate mythology.

Manchu wrote:In order:

- Guilliman's character is established as practical and efficient; if the Lion needs urgent communications sugar-coated then it's no wonder his boys wear dresses

- Codex Astartes has prevented another Horus Heresy for 10,000 years (imagine if a man like Lugft Huron controlled a legion rather than a chapter); if you think about the crisis, Dorn was teetering on the edge of corruption and it was he rather than Guilliman who threatened a second Heresy

- math time: let's say I have a hundred thousand guys and you have ten thousand; I insist we split our forces into groups of one thousand; so now we each have one thousand; I don't see how this puts you at a disadvantage but I clearly see how this disadvantages me

Let's say you have a hundred thousand guys and I have ten thousand. You insist that we split our forces into groups of one thousand.
What guarantee do I have that you're actually going to follow through with it?

- as noted above Codex Astartes was objectively in the best interests of the Imperium; the Lion's ignorance of the problems inherent to his own Legion much less the Legion-level of organization more generally is a testament against his alleged brilliance

The Lion's ignorance of the problems inherent to his own Legion had more to do with his lack of understanding when it came to the mind of Luther and those he sent back to Caliban. He sent them back not out of disgust or shame, but because it was necessary.

Those he sent back to Caliban viewed it as an insult.

- true, Lorgar came across as a brat; even so, Guilliman got punched in the face and I call that fanservice

Fanservice does not mean what you think it means. If it was Lorgar just randomly punching Guilliman in the face out of nowhere and it did nothing to really advance the story or showcase Guilliman's character like it did--then that'd be fanservice.

As it is, it showed how Lorgar behaves like a brat and Guilliman's a more stoic individual who understands the way things work. That's not really "fanservice" to the Ultramarine haters.

@Hulksmash: Sanguinius is another Primarch touched by Chaos (more literally than the Lion; approaching the level of Magnus) who is the paragon of filial love, whereas the Lion's reputation has always been shadowy.

And Russ' reputation was as a savage barbarian-king, yet what did we get of his true nature in Prospero Burns?
He's an educated individual who cultivates that reputation for a reason.
The Lion's reputation as "shadowy" has really only come about AFTER the Heresy. During the Heresy, he was a tactical mastermind whose warriors were known for their honor and courage.

The fluff you're thinking of (Guilliman's poisoned neck wound from Daemon-Fulgrim slowly healing) is in McNeill's first Ultra-novel but I don't know if it's original to McNeill.

@Manchu

You don't demand a peer attend you. Granted to be fair I'm thinking it's more along of the lines of Gulliman knowing just how loyal the Lion is and knowing he'll respond.

It wasn't just Dorn that threatened to go off the deepend when the idea was brought up. Russ was less than pleased. I wouldn't be surprised if Johnson had been around if he supported the idea honestly. It would have played well given the culture he came from.

Let's see, Gulliman got punched in the face, the Iron Hand dude got beat within an inch of his life (forget his damn name right now), and Dorn got the crap kicked out of him by Kurze who also laid a hurt on the Lion. It just seems to be a theme that the "good" primarchs got a bit roughed up by their bro's. I'm not seeing fan hate service here.

Regarding the chaos thing. Sanguinius had a mutation. All mutation is not indicative of actual chaos. However Sanguinius also wasn't alone on a chaos touched deathworld that had giant chaos spawn roaming it for the better part of a decade. Bit of a difference. The Lion grew up resisting chaos taint from day 1.

@Kanluwen:

Let's say you have a hundred thousand guys and I have ten thousand. You insist that we split our forces into groups of one thousand. What guarantee do I have that you're actually going to follow through with it?

If the UM splitting is non-effective, then neither is the splitting of the others. In effect, I still have my hundred thousand and you still have ten thousand. In other words, you're no better off and I'm no worse off. But this is counter-factual nonsense. We know that the Ultras did actually split up and that there was no conspiracy. The "what-if" game here is just more Ultra-hate (the older flavor or Ward-hate).

- Luther was supposed to be the closest person to Jonson: a mentor, a brother, a father -- that's why his betrayal means so much; and yet the question must arise -- why didn't the Lion see it coming? Also, you're right, he miscalculated with regard to the perception of his own Marines (viewing his commands as insults)? And yet he casts aspersions Guilliman's way . . .

- "Fanservice" has a technical meaning that doesn't exactly apply here (since it involves nudity) but I am using the term to highlight exactly what you mentioned: punching Guilliman in the face was gratuitous. It was not a necessary plot device to tell us something about Lorgar that we couldn't have been revealed in better ways. (Please distinguish this from me saying it made no sense, which is no part of the definition of fanservice.)

@Hulksmash:

- Only Dorn made such a stink that violence erupted. From what we currently know, some of the others were skeptical but only Dorn was ready to fight.

- All the instances you mention have been well-established milestones in the backgrounds of those Primarchs. Punching Guilliuman in the face, by contrast, is a throw-away incident that we'd never heard of before and will probably not matter in the future. I say probably because Guilliman doesn't seem the type to let something like that fester into a grudge but Lorgar will remember it and I'd bet Kor Phaeron will bring it up at Ultramar or Calth. Again: imagine a novel where Mat Ward got punched in the face -- that's the same principle.

- About Sanguinius: you're kidding,right? Yeah, he wasn't alone on Baal, but Baal is certainly not any better than Caliban and Sanguinus just had a tribe not an army to back him up. Furthermore, Sanguinius's mutation was indeed the result of Chaos. He was also a psyker beyond the skill of most other primarchs, especially regarding his ability to look into the future. I'd say Sanguinius was also resisting Chaos "from day 1" -- although this likely true of all the Primarchs is some way or another as Chaos was almost certainly a key part of their creation and was most assuredly mixed up with getting them lost. The Lion is hardly alone in being tested by Chaos. What makes him interesting is that he did not either entirely resist or give into corruption -- or so it is widely thought.

Manchu wrote:@Kanluwen:

Let's say you have a hundred thousand guys and I have ten thousand. You insist that we split our forces into groups of one thousand. What guarantee do I have that you're actually going to follow through with it?

If the UM splitting is non-effective, then neither is the splitting of the others. In effect, I still have my hundred thousand and you still have ten thousand. In other words, you're no better off and I'm no worse off. But this is counter-factual nonsense. We know that the Ultras did actually split up and that there was no conspiracy. The "what-if" game here is just more Ultra-hate (the older flavor or Ward-hate).
- Luther was supposed to be the closest person to Jonson: a mentor, a brother, a father -- that's why his betrayal means so much; and yet the question must arise -- why didn't the Lion see it coming? Also, you're right, he miscalculated with regard to the perception of his own Marines (viewing his commands as insults)? And yet he casts aspersions Guilliman's way . . .

Here's the simple problem.

You're looking at this with the "We know what happens later" aspect. There's still a lot of time between where we are in the books(even "Age of Darkness") and the end of the Heresy. We haven't even gotten to Calth yet.

Do you and I know that the Ultramarines split their Legions like they said to? Yes. But to Jonson, who's just been betrayed by his brothers, it looks like another of his brothers is getting ideas about doing the same thing and trying to drag him with.

You'll remember that the Dark Angels, following the Heresy, disbanded into Successors with no qualms about it. It's pretty clear that Jonson had no issues with Guilliman as time wore on.
But at the height of the Heresy? Can you really blame him for doubting Guilliman?

- "Fanservice" has a technical meaning that doesn't exactly apply here (since it involves nudity) but I am using the term to highlight exactly what you mentioned: punching Guilliman in the face was gratuitous. It was not a necessary plot device to tell us something about Lorgar that we couldn't have been revealed in better ways. (Please distinguish this from me saying it made no sense, which is no part of the definition of fanservice.)

Lorgar being a brat was revealed pretty well, what with him marring the aquila on Guilliman's armor.
Him punching Guilliman and Guilliman just responding with a quip shows more about Guilliman's character than you think it does. It shows that he considered such an insult beneath him to respond in force.

@Hulksmash:

- Only Dorn made such a stink that violence erupted. From what we currently know, some of the others were skeptical but only Dorn was ready to fight.

Dorn was the only one ready to fight, but many of the Legions didn't have their Primachs at that point.

- All the instances you mention have been well-established milestones in the backgrounds of those Primarchs. Punching Guilliuman in the face, by contrast, is a throw-away incident that we'd never heard of before and will probably not matter in the future.

You know what else we'd never heard of before? Pretty much everything in the Horus Heresy. We didn't know that Cypher was the title of the Chief Librarian of the Dark Angels until "Fallen Angels". We didn't know that Russ is essentially the Emperor's executioner, and that he cultivated the facade of barbarian king to put others off balance until "Prospero Burns".
When things get fleshed out, inevitably more comes to light.

I say probably because Guilliman doesn't seem the type to let something like that fester into a grudge but Lorgar will remember it and I'd bet Kor Phaeron will bring it up at Ultramar or Calth.

Which is kind of the point. Lorgar and the Word Bearers essentially manufacture the Heresy...because of an insult of their own making given to them by the Emperor.

Again: imagine a novel where Mat Ward got punched in the face -- that's the same principle.

Again: it's not. Guilliman isn't the issue. The overabundance of Ultramarines in material and their prevalence on the tabletop is the issue. A fan service would have been to write out Guilliman and the Ultramarines and have the Raven Guard be the ones doing the insulting to the Word Bearers.

Putting it bluntly: anything that goes against the Ultramarines in the Heresy is going to be viewed by many as "Ultra-hate" or a "fan service". Will you be saying that the scouring of Calth is a "fan service"?

It really didn't come across as fan service, but appropriate for the situation. And for the record: I like the Ultramarines. I like Guilliman, but that doesn't mean he's not a pompous git in many circumstances.

- About Sanguinius: you're kidding,right? Yeah, he wasn't alone on Baal, but Baal is certainly not any better than Caliban and Sanguinus just had a tribe not an army to back him up.

Jonson didn't have an army until he was an adult. For his first 12-15 years on Caliban: he was alone in the wilderness. He's essentially "The Wild Child", a foundling stumbled across and nearly killed by those he'd come to lead.

Furthermore, Sanguinius's mutation was indeed the result of Chaos. He was also a psyker beyond the skill of most other primarchs, especially regarding his ability to look into the future. I'd say Sanguinius was also resisting Chaos "from day 1" -- although this likely true of all the Primarchs is some way or another as Chaos was almost certainly a key part of their creation and was most assuredly mixed up with getting them lost.

This is a bit of a copout. The psyker bit has never really been substantiated. You don't necessarily have to be a psyker to be given visions of the future in the 40kverse.

The Lion is hardly alone in being tested by Chaos. What makes him interesting is that he did not either entirely resist or give into corruption -- or so it is widely thought.

What makes him interesting is more that he actually is the only one who recognized Chaos as what it is. He actively purged Chaos and the mutant offspring it produced from Caliban. No other Primarch was really exposed to Chaos in such a way.

@Kanluwen

- I just don't see how anyone could look at the Codex Astartes and see Guilliman trying to bilk them and not at the same time bilking himself. It's nonsense.

- Great point about the DA being on-board with the Codex when the time came, however. That makes perfect sense, too. The DA knew first hand by that point how unwieldy and dangerous a legion-sized organization could be. This is something I am really excited about . . . but it's a long way off til BL authors sink their teeth into this, I'd guess.

- I really disagree about the "Word Bearer manufacturing the Heresy." That's giving Lorgar way, way too much credit. In fact, more credit goes to Erebus than Lorgar. In any case, Lorgar is ironically a sideshow everywhere but in First Heretic. The Ruinous Powers are interested in Horus, not Lorgar.

- Calth cannot be "fanservice" because it is a well-established element of the history of the Heresy. You're really over-extending you argument into absurdity. The punch is a throw-away nothing. There are better ways to show Lorgar is a brat, which ADB eventually gets down to. But while he had Lorgar and Guilliman on the same planet, ADB could not seem to resist mussing Guilliman's dignity. It's not really important to the story at hand, or the characters, or the overarching plot. Sure it has meaning but having it stand in for 'the point of the whole Heresy' is absurd. And for the record, fanservice is not necessarily 'inappropriate for the situation.'

- I wasn't implying that Jonson grew up with an army at his beck and call, just trying to say that Sanguinius didn't grow up with one, either.

- Yes, the psyker bit has been fully established. In 40k, there's no such thing as "magic visions" outside of Chaos/the Warp/psychic powers (this is all one category). Sanguinius foresaw in a vision the coming of the Emperor and met him on bended knee. Contrast to Konrad.

- There is no evidence that Jonson knew what Chaos was before any of the other loyalist primarchs. As far as he was concerned, he was just making Caliban better for the people of Caliban.

Manchu wrote: everything else we know about the post-heresy era

Which is what exactly ?

There's the "Scouring" as they chase the traitors into the Eye, a few events like the reign of Vandire and that's about it really.

Perhaps Guilliman's plans change once the HH is over, perhaps he never gets a chance to fully enact them owing to the interference of outside forces, such as the Alpha Legion, mysterious plot devices or even the ever reliable Fulgrim.

Realistically I would suggest that even prior to the start of the HH series, we knew more key events and motivations of what happend during the HH than in pretty much any era in the game, with the exception of the 41stM of course.

Manchu wrote:@Kanluwen

- I just don't see how anyone could look at the Codex Astartes and see Guilliman trying to bilk them and not at the same time bilking himself. It's nonsense.

Because nobody saw the Codex Astartes while it was being worked on. There was no input from everyone else. There was just Guilliman doing it and then producing it, saying it had to be followed.

Can you not see how that is an issue?

- Great point about the DA being on-board with the Codex when the time came, however. That makes perfect sense, too. The DA knew first hand by that point how unwieldy and dangerous a legion-sized organization could be. This is something I am really excited about . . . but it's a long way off til BL authors sink their teeth into this, I'd guess.

Indeed.

- I really disagree about the "Word Bearer manufacturing the Heresy." That's giving Lorgar way, way too much credit. In fact, more credit goes to Erebus than Lorgar. In any case, Lorgar is ironically a sideshow everywhere but in First Heretic. The Ruinous Powers are interested in Horus, not Lorgar.

That's why I said the Word Bearers.

- Calth cannot be "fanservice" because it is a well-established element of the history of the Heresy. You're really over-extending you argument into absurdity. The punch is a throw-away nothing. There are better ways to show Lorgar is a brat, which ADB eventually gets down to. But while he had Lorgar and Guilliman on the same planet, ADB could not seem to resist mussing Guilliman's dignity. It's not really important to the story at hand, or the characters, or the overarching plot. Sure it has meaning but having it stand in for 'the point of the whole Heresy' is absurd. And for the record, fanservice is not necessarily 'inappropriate for the situation.'

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this point, because really I don't see how it's some kind of example of ADB "mussing Guilliman's dignity". Other stuff has been published that is far more "mussing Guilliman's dignity" than that.

- I wasn't implying that Jonson grew up with an army at his beck and call, just trying to say that Sanguinius didn't grow up with one, either.

I know, but still saying that Jonson had an easy time is a bit silly. The entirety of the world of Baal wasn't trying to kill Sanguinius from the day he landed.

- Yes, the psyker bit has been fully established. Sanguinius foresaw in a vision the coming of the Emperor and met him on bended knee. Contrast to Konrad.

Pretty much every Primarch had some kind of vision granted to them of the Emperor's coming.

- There is no evidence that Jonson knew what Chaos was before any of the other loyalist primarchs. As far as he was concerned, he was just making Caliban better for the people of Caliban.

Then explain why he made a point of ordering the texts seized from the last bastion of one of the opposing orders, which was harboring Beasts, to be destroyed.

Luther disobeyed him and had the texts preserved, but still.

The lead-up to the Second Founding, the epilogue to the HH, is an era that we know a lot (comparatively) about. For example:

- Guilliman held the Imperium together during the Scouring and beyond (as well as doing most of the Scouring)
- Guilliman promulgated Codex Astartes
- a shattered Dorn resisted this but eventually gave in when he saw that his actions would bring about another heresy
- Guilliman retreated from the enormous authority he was wielding to become *just* the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines

None of this squares with the Lion's cynicism. Kanluwen points out that the Lion couldn't have known what hadn't happened yet. Okay. But here's what it does demonstrate: With the benefit of 'hindisght,' we know about Guilliman's character and we have no reason to doubt that it was any different before or during the Heresy than it was afterward. We actually have evidence to the contrary from 'Last Heretic.' So the Lion's opinion is more revealing about the Lion than about Guilliman: Jonson either does not know his brother very well or is a paranoiac (or both). Maybe it was a good time to be paranoid -- but if you're going to subscribe to that, then why complain about the way that Guilliman 'summoned' Jonson?

Manchu wrote:The lead-up to the Second Founding, the epilogue to the HH, is an era that we know a lot (comparatively) about. For example:

- Guilliman held the Imperium together during the Scouring and beyond (as well as doing most of the Scouring)
- Guilliman promulgated Codex Astartes
- a shattered Dorn resisted this but eventually gave in when he saw that his actions would bring about another heresy
- Guilliman retreated from the enormous authority he was wielding to become *just* the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines

None of this squares with the Lion's cynicism. Kanluwen points out that the Lion couldn't have known what hadn't happened yet. Okay. But here's what it does demonstrate: With the benefit of 'hindsight,' we know about Guilliman's character and we have no reason to doubt that it was any different before or during the Heresy than it was afterward. We actually have evidence to the contrary from 'Last Heretic.' So the Lion's opinion is more revealing about the Lion than about Guilliman: Jonson either does not know his brother very well or is a paranoiac (or both). Maybe it was a good time to be paranoid -- but if you're going to subscribe to that, then why complain about the way that Guilliman 'summoned' Jonson?

Okay. Again:
Say you're Jonson. Say your previously (relatively) unimportant brother, who constantly tries to be a peacemaker, always made it clear that he considered the other Primarchs his "equals" and was always fairly aloof but ruled a huge sector of space, suddenly sends you a message while you are out of touch with Terra and unable to get to Terra either and 'summons' you to his side.

That kind of paranoia is definitely acceptable. If the Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and Salamanders had been a bit more paranoid--the Istvaan Dropsite Massacre may not have happened.

Manchu wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Guilliman sits in stasis until the right moment, and instantly has a force to rival anything in the universe when he awakes.

But this is not the case -- although almost all Chapters descend from the Ultras and revere Guilliman as an ancestor, they do not (seem to) have any formal relationship among them that would instantly "re-legion-ize" the Ultramarines. This conspiracy theory is one of the main pillars of Ultra-hate mythology.

Um, yeah, the only proof of that is fluff where Ultramarines seem to enjoy close ties with their successor chapters, much more so then any but the Blood Angels (insults against the honor of a successor seem to equate hate among all the successor chapters and the Ultramarines themselves, the Ultramarines just have to do some name dropping to get some of the successor chapters on board for a operation, only the most 'distant' and 'debased' such as the Mortificators requiring them to go through the trouble of sitting through a ritual). Oh, and it's nice to know that I can make a pillar of 'Ultra-hate' off the top of my head.

It's funny how I can be accused of being both a hater and a fanboy re: Space Marines (and Black Templars and Ultramarines in particular). Perhaps these terms get bandied about too much, or have they simply devolved into:


'Cult: The Church down the street from yours' - Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary.


BTW: Guilliman goes on to not only be 'just' the leader of Ultramarines, but also the commander of the entire military might of the Imperium as one of the first High Lords of Terra. Tell me how that's a step down again?

See to my mind we don't know what happened in that period, other than from certain perspectives or in somewhat vague detail.

For example Dorn resisted the Codex decree, I agree we're told that. Of course we don't really know why he resisted the plan. It could be, just as an example I'm just using this for arguments sake here, that he resisted as he saw that Guilliman was inded trying to take over or usurp the role of the Emperor, and was indeed then forced to back down when it became apparent he would have to fight over it if push came to shove. The legions who sided with Guilliman were all much reduced in strength.. did they agree out of principle or fear/ co-ercion ? And how would this be written or recorded years later by descendants who view them as nearly perfect.... ?

Now I don't agree or hold that Guilliman was a cruel tyrant. One might even go so far as to suggest it would have better for humanity if he had taken over fully -- Ultramar and it's regions is a veritable paradise compared to much of the setting. But no Primarch or legion wasn't prepared to get their hands dirty.. if needs be.

I read it all as Guilliman looked at the situation, realises that in all probability even if the Emperor survives or stops Horus the Imperium as it is, is finsihed. Whether or not he/his legion could have gotten there we don't know ( presumably until.. oohh.. next year IMO ). So he wouldn't have seen this as a betrayal, indeed it was just more of him following his father's orders to bring order to the cosmos and save humanity.

I think there's an interesting parallel between him and Alpharius ( again) which highlights the difference in the ways the two think. One wonders in fact what Guilliman would have done if it had been him who had been contacted by the Cabal and shown what Alpharius and Co. were shown.

Then explain why he made a point of ordering the texts seized from the last bastion of one of the opposing orders, which was harboring Beasts, to be destroyed.

Easy:

Beasts = Bad

People Who Harbor Beasts = Bad

Books Written By People Who Harbor Beasts = Bad

No need for any understanding of Chaos here, much less a sophisticated one.

Other points:

- The others knew something about Codex Astartes before Guilliman demanded it be followed. How could they oppose it otherwise?

- The Word Bearers did not manufacture the Heresy.

- I did not say Jonson had it easy; I said Sanguinius did not have it easy.

- No, every Primarch did not have a vision of the Emperor. In fact, only Sanguinius, Lorgar, and Konrad Curze did. (Indeed, it is not clear that the figure in Lorgar's vision was even the Emperor. Lorgar has his own doubts.) Magnus met him in the Warp, however, which is not the same thing as a precognitive vision.


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Kanluwen wrote:That kind of paranoia is definitely acceptable.

Then so is the paranoia that occasioned the 'summoning.'

What "paranoia" justified the sudden talking down to of a brother Primarch?

Doing that is just asking for trouble.

@BaronIveagh: There are no formal ties between all or even most of the Ultramarine successors. You're not the first person to think of the "ultra-legion" conspiracy and I didn't accuse you of making it up. It has no basis in fact. The only faction that still has formal alliances that preserve their common organizational descent are the Dark Angels.


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reds8n wrote:I read it all as Guilliman looked at the situation, realises that in all probability even if the Emperor survives or stops Horus the Imperium as it is, is finsihed. Whether or not he/his legion could have gotten there we don't know ( presumably until.. oohh.. next year IMO ). So he wouldn't have seen this as a betrayal, indeed it was just more of him following his father's orders to bring order to the cosmos and save humanity.

I think that is the reasonable conclusion and have been arguing as much. So the next logical step is realizing that Jonson's opinion of Guilliman doesn't tell us anything about Guilliman; rather, it tells us about the paranoia of the times and about Jonson's own character.

So wait, you can hate on Jonson but Guilliman's offlimits?

I call shenanigans!

Kanluwen wrote:What "paranoia" justified the sudden talking down to of a brother Primarch?

See, this is the equivalent of the "necron brofist" criticism of Mat Ward. Or the GK "blood bathing" argument. You're taking something, putting your own spin on it, and then using the spinned argument as if it were a fact. Ward never wrote anything even close to a brofist or a blood bath and Guilliman did not talk down to Jonson. Guilliman told Jonson to come to a certain place. Now, things can be taken in various ways. For example, if I say "Kanluwen, give me your argument as to why you think Guilliman is being condescending" you could think "Manchu is asking that I give him my argument" or you could think "Manchu is ordering and demanding that I give him my argument." The way your interpret what I say is indicative of something about you and NOT of something about me. Now, the phrase I used says something about me. In the case we're discussing, Guilliman phrased it in a pragmatic way. "Come to X, there is trouble." And the Lion interpreted it as an upstart order? Fine. Next time, Guilliman should say "The Primarch of the Ultramarines humbly requests the illustrious presence of his honor and magnificence the esteemed and well-loved Lion El'Jonson, Primarch of the wonderful, beautiful, adorable Dark Angels. RSVP."

As I said, it's no wonder the Sons of the Lion wear dresses.


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Kanluwen wrote:So wait, you can hate on Jonson but Guilliman's offlimits?

I call shenanigans!

Call it all you like. It's okay to criticize someone for a sensible reason. But no one ever criticizes Guilliman for sensible reasons. Again, same goes for Mat Ward.

My point was: if Jonson's paranoia is justiifed because of the big picture then so is Guilliman's/

And just like the "blood bathing" and "necron brofist" we don't actually have any details of the summons, outside of the Lion's statement of: "Knowing we have been unable to reach Terra, it seems the Lord of Ultramar wishes us at his side instead".

And his final statement of "It seems Horus is not the only soul to believe he is heir to the empire".

That's all we have to go by, outside of the quotation that he makes of an old Calibanite proverb.

Does it mean that Guilliman might have couched it the way you're talking about? Sure.
Does it mean that it might have been couched the way I'm talking about? Sure.

You have to remember that every other time where there's been a case of "dignified contact" between the Primarchs, it's always been face to face contact or by messengers actually being sent. What amounts to a verbal "Hey, you. Do this" is an insult.

So . . . the Lion's feelings are hurt. I can imagine the conversation:

Jonson: "You used the wrong letterhead! How dare you!"

Guilliman: "Have you noticed there's a crisis going on?"

Jonson: "Yes! I just said so, didn't I? I mean, look at your handwriting on this invitation! Tsk tsk!"

No one is criticizing Guilliman for the sake of criticizing him here. You're interpreting persecution which is not present (at least not from me).

To give an example: say you and I work together. Say we have the same job, same pay, same title, same everything. We get along well and go out of our way for the majority of our interaction to make sure that it's clear there's a mutual respect.

Then half of our fellow employees go nuts and try to seize control of the company, shaking things up and setting everyone at each other's throats.
You don't know who's doing what, everyone's flipping out, and paranoia runs rampant. Now you suddenly have a voicemail 'requesting' your presence in my office.

Would you not be the least bit suspicious?

@Manchu

-Gulliman already gave into a baser need for vengeance/power before. He talks about it in the story and states that he's gone to lengths to purge himself of it. Doesn't mean it's not still there and that's by his own word.

-How is growing up with a tribe to teach you/protect you from infancy on a pretty hardcore world anywhere near the same as growing up on a deathworld from infancy by yourself for the first 10 years of your life?

@Thread in general

The way I read the Gulliman story was that Gully, instead of marshalling and marching on his foes spent his time running training "scenarios" to develop a tactical tome that centered around his domain being invaded (funny that since he's also training his men to fight even loyal chapters).

At the end of it he realizes it's got a gaping flaw. Tie that in with a call to Johnson who (if he'd been better at reading people in general) would have ended Horus's march on Terra before it started and maybe you'll see more of the Lion's hand in "Gulilman's Great Work".

On Johnson's paranoia remember he's been recently betrayed by a brother he trusted when he handed over all that lovely seige equipment. That being the case can you blame the guy for wondering at people?

@Hulksmash: Hold up, the point is that Baal was no picnic either and that Jonson wasn't unique in being confronted by Chaos. Jonson fought Chaos externally -- Sanguinius faced Chaos on the inside, in himself.

@Kanluwen & Hulksmash: Was Jonson justified in his paranoia? Yes, to the extent that it was directed against any other Primarch but not to the extent that it was directed at Guilliman specifically. Also there is a difference between saying "he might be a traitor" and "he wants to replace the Emperor." Jonson is implying the latter. The argument in this thread has been that he's implying the latter because Guilliman presumptuously 'summoned' him. That's a bit of a stretch. If the Lion thinks so, then that says something about Jonson and his view of Guilliman. It doesn't tell us anything about Guilliman.

Check out the articles on Dakka: DarkLordSeanron's last work portrays Guilliman in a very interesting light. Obviously non-canon, but reflects some of the arguments here about his intentions.

You've obviously got an extreme....love...for Gulliman. Gulliman presents himself poorly in his story. Ignoring the galaxy going to hell to write a book. You also don't seem to care for the Lion at the same time. No one is gonna sway you so further discourse is silly. Agree to disagree buddy.

I still contend that we'll see some of the Lion's influence on the codex: astartes. It would be stupid to not include one of the top 2-3 Tactical minds among the Primarchs.

The way I read the Gulliman story was that Gully, instead of marshalling and marching on his foes spent his time running training "scenarios" to develop a tactical tome that centered around his domain being invaded (funny that since he's also training his men to fight even loyal chapters).

Funny that considering half of the trators were once 'loyal' legions, one might as well train to fight them all if they turn too.

On Johnson's paranoia remember he's been recently betrayed by a brother he trusted when he handed over all that lovely seige equipment. That being the case can you blame the guy for wondering at people?

And you know why he did that? To secure support from Perturabo to be Warmaster himself.....so it appears that maybe the Lion is projecting a bit in his suspiscions of Guilliman yes?