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ThirdUltra wrote:

On Johnson's paranoia remember he's been recently betrayed by a brother he trusted when he handed over all that lovely seige equipment. That being the case can you blame the guy for wondering at people?

And you know why he did that? To secure support from Perturabo to be Warmaster himself.....so it appears that maybe the Lion is projecting a bit in his suspicions of Guilliman yes?

Hahaha whaaaaaaaaaaat.

Hulksmash is referring to what happened at the end of "Fallen Angels". This was before the Istvaanian Drop Site Massacre, before when Perturabo was known to be in league with Horus.
He gave the equipment over because he knew the Iron Warriors were one of the Legions gathering to 'punish' Horus.

The call from Guilliman came after the Istvaanian Drop Site Massacre, and likely has Jonson in a bit of a funk because he handed over a weapon that will no doubt be used to kill further Loyalists and their fortifications to what were arguably at the time the ultimate besiegers.

Hulksmash wrote:You've obviously got an extreme....love...for Gulliman.

Yeah, I didn't use to like him because everyone who knew more about 40k than me didn't like him. But then I started to learn about 40k and realized that folks just didn't like him apparently because he was . . . really awesome? Too awesome? Really? He's actually a great character and very interesting. Whoever gets to do an UM novel, I hope they're up to the task. As for the Lion, I actually like him as well. I like all of them, really. What peeves me is the need to bash (sometimes literally, ADB) Guilliman in order to make the other Primarchs seem more interesting.


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BaronIveagh wrote:BTW: Guilliman goes on to not only be 'just' the leader of Ultramarines, but also the commander of the entire military might of the Imperium as one of the first High Lords of Terra. Tell me how that's a step down again?

Sorry, I just saw this. The answer is that I was already talking about this: Guilliman goes from Primarch of the XIIIth Legion to High Lord or Terra Regent of the Imperium really to *just* Chapter Master of the Ultramarines/Lord Macragge.

Manchu wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:You've obviously got an extreme....love...for Gulliman.

Yeah, I didn't use to like him because everyone who knew more about 40k than me didn't like him. But then I started to learn about 40k and realized that folks just didn't like him apparently because he was . . . really awesome? Too awesome? Really? He's actually a great character and very interesting.

I really hate to say it, but he's really not that interesting or great as it stands now. He wrote the Codex Astartes, but that's really his 'big claim to fame' right now.
Does this mean he's necessarily "boring"? No. But there's just not too much to get excited about that we know about now.

Whoever gets to do an UM novel, I hope they're up to the task. As for the Lion, I actually like him as well. I like all of them, really.

Now who's projecting. Guilliman, right now, has nothing too fascinating like the Lion or Corax do.

What peeves me is the need to bash (sometimes literally, ADB) Guilliman in order to make the other Primarchs seem more interesting.

I'm sorry, what? This is what, the third or fourth time Guilliman's been mentioned in the HH books.

-You have the Cabal talking about how Guilliman's vision is "too limited, and corrupted by his dream of a utopia" which makes him unsuitable for the role of 'saving the Imperium'.
-You have the mention of him in "The First Heretic", showing him as this incredibly trusted individual who the Emperor goes to, calling upon him to punish the freaking Word Bearers publicly and basically standing there and literally turning the other cheek when Lorgar throws a temper tantrum and attacks him.
-And now you have the triple stories from Age of Darkness, showing him in a new light where it's not unpossible to draw the conclusion that Guilliman is either preparing a way to seize power if he deems it necessary to ensure a "utopian Imperium"['Iron Within'](the way the Praetorian Guard of the Roman Empire behaved comes to mind here, you know where they'd kill anyone who they deemed "unfit" to rule) or is preparing to mount his own offensive against Horus, or if you chose to read it another way--he's preparing to secede and wants one of his most loyal and trusted brothers at his side to help him rule his own empire.

It's amusing you'd say this, because pretty much the whipping boy of the Primarchs isn't Guilliman. It's Dorn. All of the Primarchs seemingly look down upon him because he's withdrawn to Terra.

Isn't Dorn the Regent of Terra? I never got the impression he was despised because of this . . .

But about Guilliman being fascinating . . .

- His lack of ego sets him apart from all of his brothers.
- He thinks he should have been Warmaster and Horus's treachery is proof that he was right (unless the Emperor himself planned the Heresy, which I think is likely).
- He's the only Imperial commander that's actually interested in leaving the galaxy better than he found it (discounting re-joining the Imperium/completing xeno-genocide being the sole definition of "better").
- Guilliman is the embodiment of the ideals of the Great Crusade: a rational, efficient, self-sufficient utopian. It's no surprise that the ONLY place (including Terra) where the Great Crusade was a lasting success is Ultramar -- and, by the way, it was already like that before the Emperor got there. Talk about efficient!


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he's preparing to secede and wants one of his most loyal and trusted brothers at his side to help him rule his own empire.

That is preposterous.

Manchu wrote:Isn't Dorn the Regent of Terra? I never got the impression he was despised because of this . . .

Not the Regent, the Seneschal. The defense of Terra was his responsibility.

But about Guilliman being fascinating . . .

- His lack of ego sets him apart from all of his brothers.

Corax had no ego. Jonson had no ego. Mannus had no ego.
There's plenty of members of the Primarchs who "lacked an ego".

- He thinks he should have been Warmaster and Horus's treachery is proof that he was right (unless the Emperor himself planned the Heresy, which I think is likely).

I'm not sure why this is "proof that he was right". He didn't think he should be Warmaster because Horus was going to start a Heresy.

- He's the only Imperial commander that's actually interested in leaving the galaxy better than he found it (discounting re-joining the Imperium/completing xeno-genocide being the sole definition of "better").

Again: Corax, Jonson, Alpharius*Omegon.

- Guilliman is the embodiment of the ideals of the Great Crusade: a rational, efficient, self-sufficient utopian. It's no surprise that the ONLY place (including Terra) where the Great Crusade was a lasting success was Ultramar -- and, by the way, it was already like that before the Emperor got there. Talk about efficient!

And Caliban, while in a Dark Age, was well on its way to becoming a utopia before the Imperium started to stripmine the place for resources.
Deliverance was a utopia following Corax's rebellion.

he's preparing to secede and wants one of his most loyal and trusted brothers at his side to help him rule his own empire.

That is preposterous.

So is the idea that Jonson "sat out the Heresy and waited to see who would win".

It doesn't stop people from thinking it to be true though, now does it?

I posted one simple potential reading that isn't too far fetched given the context of "Rules of Engagement" and "Iron Within"(Y'know, where Guilliman has sent an envoy to the Loyalist Iron Warriors and instructed them to hold out and deplete Horus' forces),

Manchu wrote:
- He thinks he should have been Warmaster and Horus's treachery is proof that he was right (unless the Emperor himself planned the Heresy, which I think is likely).

He you had me until this one.

I will go into an apoplectic rage for the ages if this is ever revealed to be the case.

I will go into a slightly smaller apoplectic rage for the ages if the other rumored 'shocking truth' is...er, true!

Manchu wrote:Isn't Dorn the Regent of Terra?

> Malcador

Dorn got the duty of any military affairs, like fortifying the palace ( which perturabo wanted to do ), commanding the Legions in the Emperors
absence ( busy in his dungeons ), facing the traitors at the siege.

Manchu wrote:
- He thinks he should have been Warmaster and Horus's treachery is proof that he was right

How many aren't thinking to become Warmaster is their right? 3 of 18 deem themselves worthy as far as we know yet.

But Gullyman wanted more. His tome had the subtitle Imperium Secundus. Written after Calth...

Heresy

Manchu wrote:(unless the Emperor himself planned the Heresy, which I think is likely).

Honestly there is a lot left to be revealed but Gully isn't pure as the driven snow. I find it hilarious that the idea that the Lion might have ulterior motives for not making it to Terra is acceptable cause he's "shadowy" but heaven forbid people question Gully and think that writing a book is a good reason not to head out to save the galaxy and his father.....

@Thirdultra

That's just silly. Since it was already well known that the Salamanders at that point were on the right side and were nearly wiped out. But he's still training to fight them. One thinks he thinks everyone might not agree with him.

Guilleman is preparing for all possible eventualities, hence squaring his men off against Legions both traitorous and loyal. It could be that he is foreseeing how the march on Terra will go and that he is preparing the the period known as the Scouring, when the Ultras were everywhere putting out fires and keeping the Imperium together. Mind you, this is just me thinking out loud.

One thing to keep in mind with the info found in Angels of Darkness, it's being recounted by a Fallen Angel, something the author himself has pointed out vaguely as "it could be true, he could be lying his head off" to keep the readers guessing. Or in some cases, arguing.

At first, I read "Magnus had no ego." Fortunately, I caught my mistake before my head exploded!

@BrookM

I personally don't doubt that he is preparing for the aftermath of the seige of terra. However no one really knows why he completely sat it out. He didn't even have the excuse of warpstorms (as far as we know so far) that kept him away like the Lion did. From appearances he didn't even try though I'm sure it will be explained.

As for all scenarios maybe. But he's basically running invasion scenarios for his little empire while leaving all the real fighting after Calth to the other kids.

@Manchu

There we are in agreement....Magnus's ego was enormous. "I've conquered Chaos!" "I do what I want! I'm totally important!" I can't think of many more Primarchs that have a greater ego (outside of Fulgrim, Perturbo, and Horus).

He could've used the Word Bearer assault as a reason to stay put.

Hulksmash wrote:I find it hilarious that the idea that the Lion might have ulterior motives for not making it to Terra is acceptable cause he's "shadowy" but heaven forbid people question Gully and think that writing a book is a good reason not to head out to save the galaxy and his father.

For the sake of argument, let's say that both the UM and the DA sat Terra out on purpose. What are the motivations?

UM: Persevere in order to swing around and either (a) fortify the victorious but depleted loyalists (i.e., what actually happened) or (b) become a backup for Terra and the Imperium. Please note that (a) and (b) come to much the same thing.

DA: Become catatonic in the face of their internal civil war and loss of their Primarch (i.e., what actually happened).

So even if we measure their actions with this assumption, Guilliman turns out to be playing what the Baron called the "Long Game" while the Lion is just the victim of tragedy. Guilliman, in contrast to the Lion, is in control. Also, have you ever thought of what Guilliman's purpose might be? Russ, for example, was designed to serve a purpose: as an attack dog to keep traitorous Astartes in line. What might Guilliman's purpose have been?

. . . a backup Imperium -- so that the Emperor's vision would survive in part even in the case all went to gak (i.e., what actually happened)?

The Lion does strike me a bit as a naive opportunist. He did trade the super siege guns in return for Perturabo's vote for Warmaster when everything was over.

Another thing about the Lion . . .

He's kind of like the Emperor inasmuch as he has to deal with his own personal "Horus Heresy."

The question we all ask is "Why didn't the Emperor see it coming?" The idea that Horus was his favorite son doesn't seem completely convincing to me.

Similarly, why didn't Jonson notice Luther's treachery? Instead, the Lion suspects Guilliman. He ends up looking for the traitor in the completely wrong place -- the traitor isn't some other Primarch far away, but the serpent in his bosom.

The Emperor at least had no reason to be paranoid before Horus's treachery was revealed. But you'd think the Heresy would make each of the Primarch's take a hard look at their own legions.

In fact, that'd make a great UM HH book -- especially given what we found out (or seemed to find out?) in First Heretic.

The much-despised (not by me though) Dark Angel novels do a great job of laying those first seeds of heresy within the First Legion. It also didn't help that the Lion personally shipped home those he deemed "suspects" of treason, putting them under the command of someone who, while a close friend, had tried to kill him.

**Forgot we're not gonna change each others mind so I'm good, I'll just read this for now**

Regarding his "suspicions" I think this is getting blown up a little. I don't think he thinks Gulliman is another Horus. He's simply stating that his brother also sees himself as an Heir to the throne. And to show even more proof of a lack of suspicion he actually responds to the "summons". Don't think he would do that if he truly suspected Gully of being another Horus.

Regarding the seige weapons. While the Lion might have asked for Perturbo's support for the next position of Warmaster he would have handed those weapons over anyway. They were going with the legion that could make the best use of them in crushing Horus. Don't make it sound like he was gonna hold on to them if Perturbo said no.

BrookM wrote:The much-despised (not by me though) Dark Angel novels do a great job of laying those first seeds of heresy within the First Legion. It also didn't help that the Lion personally shipped home those he deemed "suspects" of treason, putting them under the command of someone who, while a close friend, had tried to kill him.

You know, I've always kind of felt that the reasoning that the Fallen gave was such a half-arsed one.

"He sent us home because he doesn't trust us!".

Remember, the only person who was aware of Luther's supposed 'treachery' during "Descent of Angels"...was Luther himself and the Librarian whose name eludes me.
Luther suspected the Lion knew, but it all strikes me as being much like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Luther felt he betrayed the Lion and was being punished, when in actuality the Lion was rewarding him with the ultimate trust of stewardship of Caliban.
Luther feels slighted, and actually goes to the point of betraying the Lion.

Luther is just jealous of the Lion, that's it. Just look back at the big battle on Calliban with the last beasts in the castle. Luther deals a massive blow to the last beast and probably slays it, but the Lion deals a quick blow himself as the beast dies, everybody cheers on the Lion, the librarian to be sees Luther shed a manly tear of rejection.

Zahariel El'Zurias? Or do you mean Israfel, the one who recruited Zahariel Kanluwen?

Well, the we've threadjacked poor Red's BL N&R discussion. So I made it official: those looking for the BL N&R discussion can find it here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/373580.page

iproxtaco wrote:Zahariel El'Zurias? Or do you mean Israfel, the one who recruited Zahariel Kanluwen?

I think it might be Zahariel. I don't have my copy of DoA/FA readily handy(they're on loan to a friend who's devouring the HH series after playing Dawn of War 2).

Remember, the librarian I'm referring to helped Luther defuse that whole 'situation' and things went from there.

I'm personally thrilled with how the good primarchs look in the HH series so far... especially Guilliman, Russ, and Dorn (they're not perfect, I wouldn't say flawed, but still just awesome).

I think its clear that Russ and Guilliman have two sides. The side they show around outsiders (read also: not their Legion) and the side they show to their own.

All three (Russ, Dorn, Guilliman) are clearly playing a longer game than the crusades.

I see Guilliman being too heavy handed with his brothers, but being too caught up in his Legion, his problems, his goals, his planet(s) to see how it reads to others (just like the Lion, Magnus, Lorgar, and, dare I say, the Emperor).

I think its clear that Guilliman knew there was no way to trust any of the Legions other than a select few, so even after reports of Horus' Heresy and the Drop site Massacre make their way to him, he has no way to know what's true and how everyone will react/act after the dust settles. But he knows that someone will need to be prepared for the "after" and feels it needs to be him.

I think its reasonable for him to already see that when the "after" rolls around, the Legions need to be split and he wants a solid primer for his successor chapters and commanders of his own operating away from his lines of communication.

Come on, what primarch isn't concerned about his legacy after the Crusades are over (and then after the Heresy is over)?

...and we already know that Horus sets up the Word Bearers/Ultramarine clash, so to think RG held back is silly, since we already know he was bushwacked by Horus and then has to defend against a WB attack that Horus was sending his way.

Kanluwen wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Zahariel El'Zurias? Or do you mean Israfel, the one who recruited Zahariel Kanluwen?

I think it might be Zahariel. I don't have my copy of DoA/FA readily handy(they're on loan to a friend who's devouring the HH series after playing Dawn of War 2).

Remember, the librarian I'm referring to helped Luther defuse that whole 'situation' and things went from there.

Manchu wrote:@BaronIveagh: There are no formal ties between all or even most of the Ultramarine successors. You're not the first person to think of the "ultra-legion" conspiracy and I didn't accuse you of making it up. It has no basis in fact. The only faction that still has formal alliances that preserve their common organizational descent are the Dark Angels.

And the Blood Angels. Less formal organizations seem to exist for the Imperial Fists (based on Phalanx and the Deathwatch core book) and the Ultramarines (based on Rites of Battle and the various BL novels where the Ultramarines interact with successor chapters). Given the level of primarch worship in many chapters, frankly, if he were to return, he'd probably just have to order them to form up on him.


I hate to say it, but.. if more then a handful of people think of something when looking at what little evidence is on hand, and independently come up with the same thing, odds are it's fact. Or at least true from a certain point of view.

No ones mentioned Jonson's conversation at the end of Fallen Angels about he could have been warmaster but for a quirk of fate and could he rely on support when the time came?
He has so far came across as very arrogant and I think it's implied that all he's interested in is his own agenda. Not have read the latest can't comment on those but wanted to remind people of that little convo

Vermillion wrote:No ones mentioned Jonson's conversation at the end of Fallen Angels about he could have been warmaster but for a quirk of fate and could he rely on support when the time came?
He has so far came across as very arrogant and I think it's implied that all he's interested in is his own agenda. Not have read the latest can't comment on those but wanted to remind people of that little convo

But to be fair, every Primarch seems to think he might have been Warmaster.

Kanluwen wrote:

Vermillion wrote:No ones mentioned Jonson's conversation at the end of Fallen Angels about he could have been warmaster but for a quirk of fate and could he rely on support when the time came?
He has so far came across as very arrogant and I think it's implied that all he's interested in is his own agenda. Not have read the latest can't comment on those but wanted to remind people of that little convo

But to be fair, every Primarch seems to think he might have been Warmaster.

Yeah seems to be true of most
Never saw any hint of it in dorn, Alpharius or Mortarion thus far in my interpretations though, but Jonson has come right out with it

Dorn and Mortarion have both said as much.

Dorn though is more content to serve. "Duty" pretty much describes him.

Got to admit up to propero burns its mainly the primarachs set to fall that are the most sympathetic to the reader. Just started Prospero Burns so will see how Russ turns out to me.
Jonson though just comes across as arrogant, blinkered and power hungry.