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Rimmy wrote:GW will not only ban your recasts from the store, they can and will ban you. we also didn't let non GW models as proxies in the store unless it was part of a GW product.

I've always been more on the side of "Rule of cool" rather than "product must be 100% games workshop".
Its never been a problem at my local (well, closest GW store), and even less so at the FLGS.

It usually goes "Wow, nice models."
"Thanks, build this part, this part, and these parts from my own sculpting and molds!"
"Dude, awesome. Lets roll some dice."

what if you recast GW models but used them in something completley different liek D&D games or somthing

DISCLAIMER: I have not read the 4 pages of discussion on this, only the OP.

Legal? Only if YOU hold the copyright or a license to reproduce said copyrighted work. So if it's a model YOU sculpted, go nuts. Recasting Space Marine models is very illegal. That being said, if it's for personal use, the odds of you getting caught and subsequently prosecuted are slim to none.

Moral? Gray area. Morals are relative to each person, they are not universal.

Personally I don't have anything wrong with recasting OOP or rare items. A SM combi melta comes to mind. How many kits have them? 2? And on Ebay they are as much as $5 each at times. So when you run 7-10 sternguard you are looking at a $50 weapons option. In this case I would personally break the law. Keep in mind I'm not suggesting you do that, nor am I admitting to having done it. Just a hypothetical. Another instance could be something like OOP 6th edition Empire infantry. Worlds better than the current GW models, and increasingly hard to find NiB.

Another thing you have to consider with this is cost of production vs. cost of legally attaining said models. I can tell you right now that buying, setting up, and recasting a whopping 10 combi meltas is not worth the time or money unless you have rubber and resin laying around and have already taken the time to learn how to mold and cast.

That all being said, what GW doesn't know won't sue you. It is still the official stance of Dakka that recasting is illegal and topics detailing the process or discussion of actual recasts are prohibited.

Now, if anyone has comments on what I've said or would like to continue a discussion on such a topic, feel free to PM me and we can email or something. I respect the rules of this site.

EDIT: It's a common misconception that personal use recasting is legal. It is not. GW can still sue you for moneys lost by you not buying their product, they don't have to sue you for selling them and making profit. They then can also sue for the copyright infringement itself as you don't have permission to reproduce their intellectual property.

I'm really peeved that people keep spreading the word that personal use copyright infringement isn't illegal. Downloading music is illegal even if you don't sell it to anyone. Same frikking thing. PERSONAL USE RECASTS ARE VERY MUCH ILLEGAL.

Texas Instrument wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If you catch up with music sampling law you'll find it is extremely restrictive nowadays.

But we can still edit quotes from Tim Powers, right? (love that quote, btw)
^ This was going to be a stand alone statement at first, poking fun at people sampling things from music and books all the time.
But then I started thinking, what if you sculpted a reasonable facsimile of a GW model, taking heavily from the design, but changing it just a little bit?
For example, tac marine arms. If I sculpted an exact copy of the arm, using calipers to measure exact distances, but left out the elbow pad. Legal?

That's not recasting. I think it clouds the core issue to introduce a separate topic.

I'd also like to point out that I get my IP law info from IP lawyer Joe Escalante, who actually hosts a radio show about this exact topic: Copyright law and infringement as well as music industry law and how to protect ones own intellectual property.

Ask him if personal use infringements are illegal. I guarantee he'll agree with me.

Ouze wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:Sorry if I was not clear.
I don't really have a problem with people sharing their opinions. I have a problem with people stating their opinions as if they're fact.

Reasonable enough, surely.

I try to be. ; )

cordan123 wrote:So really as long as you are buying the originals from Gw they are most likely losing no money. And besides the merchandise they make themselves, they are entitled to jack as long you aren't making a profit off of their IP.

This is untrue.
In practice, they are not losing money. It's not like you took a physical model from them without paying for it. What you did, however, was deprive them of the funds they would have received for the model had you acquired it legally. In that respect, they are losing money. Lost sales = lost money.
Also, you can't say they aren't entitled to jack (and be correct). The law is against you on this. They are, in fact, legally entitled to the income from that (insert model here) that you copied. Since they're the only legal producer of the item, they're legally entitled to the income for all copies of said item.

The idea that you aren't making a profit off of their IP is debatable, as well. Presumably, recasting any models or bits is in lieu of purchasing an equivalent amount. Had you bought those models/bits, they'd have cost you money. OOP or not doesn't matter. To buy it, you'd have had to spend money. Now, by recasting this model, you've refrained from spending the money. That equates to more money in your pocket which, really, is no different than profit, since you can now do with that money whatever you'd have done with it if it was profit. If you'd bought the models, you wouldn't have that money to attain more stuff with. Profit.

To clarify... I don't care, morally or ethically, about recasting. What you do in that regard is up to you and I won't judge you for it. I've never recasted and, apart from (possibly) decorative bits, I doubt I ever will.
What I do care about, however, are misguided thoughts and beliefs about recasting.

You aren't entitled to free copies of something just because you bought one single copy of it. Even if it's OOP or "just a bit." The law isn't on your side. Don't try to claim that it is and don't try to justify it. Just say, "I'm recasting. I know it's illegal and I'm doing it anyway," and you're set. Any claims to the contrary are simply self-delusional.

Eric

I say cast the Chocolate 'Nids. Post a picture. If the Inquisition comes after you, simply eat the 'Nids and claim an Alfred E. Newman.

I can see it now.

Forget Finecast. GW's next new material is Chococast (internet meme nickname: Tastycast).

Think about the profit they'll make on people who have to return to buy a new Sternguard squad after every "You kill it you eat it" Apocalypse battle!
They could even use colored chocolate to meet the standard 3-color tournament requirement.

Do NOT leave them in your car for a "melt test." They WILL fail. lol

Eric

It's refreshing to see other people who understand the finer points of model IP laws. I get rather pissed off when people spout incorrect information to the tune of "personal recasts are legal".

Is it illegal? yes in every way

Will you get caught? only if you are flaunting them in front of GW or fanboys. Paint them up and none will be the wiser.


To me, ultimately I understand that recasting causes GW lost sales. I'm fine with this as they seem to gouge me at every turn anyway. If prices hadn't risen like they have in the last 10 years then I would be opposed to recasting. But GW have alienated those who collect and paint as the primary hobby by making it so damn pricey, especially when I could just as easily paint other models.

MagickalMemories wrote:
Also, you can't say they aren't entitled to jack (and be correct). The law is against you on this. They are, in fact, legally entitled to the income from that (insert model here) that you copied. Since they're the only legal producer of the item, they're legally entitled to the income for all copies of said item.

I'm calling shenanigans. The reason most people have listed that they recast is "because GW doesn't sell the item".

Say I recast 22 ig meltas, to cite a popular example. GW, for whatever reason, gets wind of it and their legal team takes me down for the cost they are out since I didn't buy it. Plus punitve blah blah blah...
So what am I paying for? 22 ig command boxes? I only recast the one arm, not the box that arm comes in. No civil court in the world would make that ruling.
So they charge me for what? 22 melts arm bits? Total comes to... Oh, they don't sell it. So they are out zero dollars.
Or would I get charged their cost to make 22 arms? Three bucks of plastic? And to get it they spent how much on lawyers?

the sales lost is not all they will sue you for. They will sue for punitive damages, as well as likely legal fees.

Keep in mind that the only reason they WOULD sue someone for recasting would be to make an example of them, as a certain lawsuit comes to mind. It's not that they want their money back, it's that they want to instill fear into potential infringers.

You forget that it's not really about WHAT you copy, it's about the ACT of copying without permission.

A record company could sue you for illegally downloading a single song. That doesn't mean they want their $.99 for the song, they want damages and that same fear put into potential downloaders.

Texas Instrument wrote: I'm calling shenanigans. The reason most people have listed that they recast is "because GW doesn't sell the item".

Say I recast 22 ig meltas, to cite a popular example. GW, for whatever reason, gets wind of it and their legal team takes me down for the cost they are out since I didn't buy it. Plus punitve blah blah blah...
So what am I paying for? 22 ig command boxes? I only recast the one arm, not the box that arm comes in. No civil court in the world would make that ruling.
So they charge me for what? 22 melts arm bits? Total comes to... Oh, they don't sell it. So they are out zero dollars.
Or would I get charged their cost to make 22 arms? Three bucks of plastic? And to get it they spent how much on lawyers?

Using this logic, which I believe to be correct, recasting is really no different than constructing aftermarket products.

If I own a "bitz" company for car parts, and I want to create an aftermarket Honda Civic exhaust, I need the dimensions of the factory component. I'm making a proprietary part for a single vehicle. Honda is losing out on the money that you didn't spend on THEIR buffed up exhaust, but aftermarket products are everywhere.

The only way that you're literally replicating the GW part is by casting the same part in the same medium. If your resin is different, it's not really the same thing that you've created is it? It looks the same, and performs the same function, but your resin might be 58% less likely to melt in a hot car.

We aren't talking about aftermarket products such as Chapterhouse. That is a whole different discussion. We are talking about 1:1 reproductions slogged as the original.

If Honda found out that you were producing 1:1 reproductions of a part they sell, lets say something unique like a door, they could very well sue you. If they have copyright on the door, and you make an exact replica of it thru whatever means, they can sue for infringement, loss of moneys and punitive damages.

EDIT: are people so desperate to feel guiltless that they have to rationalize in their heads on why they THINK it isn't or shouldn't be illegal?

Just admit it's illegal, just like speeding on the interstate, and continue doing it like you always have. No amount of self rationalizing will make recasting legal.

aerethan wrote:We aren't talking about aftermarket products such as Chapterhouse. That is a whole different discussion. We are talking about 1:1 reproductions slogged as the original.

If Honda found out that you were producing 1:1 reproductions of a part they sell, lets say something unique like a door, they could very well sue you. If they have copyright on the door, and you make an exact replica of it thru whatever means, they can sue for infringement, loss of moneys and punitive damages.

What exactly is "slogging"?

advertised or otherwise pushed as. In this case we'd be talking about someone on ebay OR at a game store pretending that their reproduction is an original.

I cannot stress enough that personal use is not a legal defense for copyright infringement.

aerethan wrote:advertised or otherwise pushed as. In this case we'd be talking about someone on ebay OR at a game store pretending that their reproduction is an original.

I cannot stress enough that personal use is not a legal defense for copyright infringement.

You would have to see what fits under fair use, though I don't think anyone is saying that selling recasts is legal.

If we're talking copyright infringement, then sculpting a "Space Marine" at all is infringing on GW's copyright.

the term Space Marine is trademarked for miniature models, so it would fall under trade mark law, not copyright.

Recasting does not fall under fair use at all. You aren't making back ups in case one breaks. You are making more of them so you don't have to buy them. Plain and simple that is viewed in IP law as stealing.

Again, people need to just accept that it's illegal, and if that really bothers them that much, don't do it.

Recasting doesn't bother me, but I don't have my head in the sand about the law regarding it. I accept the risk and consequences attached to it.

Is it MORAL to sell a pack of 3 killa kanz, and only sell 1 of each of the 4 arms with the kit, with no option to get more gun arms?!

It's a god damn crime that's what that is.... sons of bitches...

Hence why morals are relative.

Let me pose a different question to you all.

You see an auction on eBay that is a recast.
Lets say a seller that you have watched for a month or two and (s)he only lists items every tues/wed with a private seller&buyer restrictions and the auctions were 24hour listings. every week you see the same lot of 30 chaos terminators get sold, and you see the buyers leave positive feedback.

Would you buy the product? even though you know its a garage recast.

theunicorn wrote:Let me pose a different question to you all.

You see an auction on eBay that is a recast.
Lets say a seller that you have watched for a month or two and (s)he only lists items every tues/wed with a private seller&buyer restrictions and the auctions were 24hour listings. every week you see the same lot of 30 chaos terminators get sold, and you see the buyers leave positive feedback.

Would you buy the product? even though you know its a garage recast.

I likely would if it were the right product at the right price and the right quality. More likely that I'd end up casting the part myself though as I have the facilities to.

insaniak wrote:

SgtSixkilla wrote:If it is actually illegal (something which seems to be disputed somewhat in the first place) surely the fact that GW packs too few pieces in their boxes is an extenuating circumstance. Take my issue as an example. I need 22 meltas for my IG army, and only a single box (the command squad box) contains one example of the weapon. (ignore for a second that the weapons can be bought in metal. That's not the case for so many weapons.)

GW has the right top package their products however they see fit.

If hotdogs come in packs of 8, and hotdog buns come in packs of 6, does that make it ok for you to steal the extra two buns, because you think they should have been in there in the first place?

What you personally feel entitled to and what the law says is ok are not the same thing.


(And before anyone chimes on on that point, no, I'm not saying recasting is exactly the same as stealing... legally, they're two distinct and different things.)

Just had to say it, but no, stealing the buns wouldn't be legal. Baking your own buns, however, for you to enjoy, using the ingredients list on the back of the bun bag, with a little trial and error, would be fine.

Anvildude wrote:

insaniak wrote:

SgtSixkilla wrote:If it is actually illegal (something which seems to be disputed somewhat in the first place) surely the fact that GW packs too few pieces in their boxes is an extenuating circumstance. Take my issue as an example. I need 22 meltas for my IG army, and only a single box (the command squad box) contains one example of the weapon. (ignore for a second that the weapons can be bought in metal. That's not the case for so many weapons.)

GW has the right top package their products however they see fit.

If hotdogs come in packs of 8, and hotdog buns come in packs of 6, does that make it ok for you to steal the extra two buns, because you think they should have been in there in the first place?

What you personally feel entitled to and what the law says is ok are not the same thing.


(And before anyone chimes on on that point, no, I'm not saying recasting is exactly the same as stealing... legally, they're two distinct and different things.)

Just had to say it, but no, stealing the buns wouldn't be legal. Baking your own buns, however, for you to enjoy, using the ingredients list on the back of the bun bag, with a little trial and error, would be fine.

Not if you are slogging those buns as being Wonder Bread buns. At that point it is infringement. And comparing buns and toy models is not accurate. A hot dog bun itself cannot be copyrighted. Companies use secret recipes to get around this, pushing their product as being superior as a result of said recipe. A model however very much can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alas, an analogy hit me. You are right. You are more than welcome to bake your own hot dog buns. The model equivalent of which would be sculpting your OWN designs to meet your needs. You can't use the same recipe as that would be infringement, but you are quite welcome to come up with your own design to fill the gap.

The above has it.
Chapterhouse got busted for what? Selling parts compatible with Space Marines. Not even recasts. Just using the GW brand without permission.

theunicorn wrote:
Not if you are slogging those buns as being Wonder Bread buns. At that point it is infringement. And comparing buns and toy models is not accurate. A hot dog bun itself cannot be copyrighted. Companies use secret recipes to get around this, pushing their product as being superior as a result of said recipe. A model however very much can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alas, an analogy hit me. You are right. You are more than welcome to bake your own hot dog buns. The model equivalent of which would be sculpting your OWN designs to meet your needs. You can't use the same recipe as that would be infringement, but you are quite welcome to come up with your own design to fill the gap.

Yeah okay but in that case wouldn't the point of it's not the same formula of plastic/resin/pewter/etc, that was mentioned earlier then absolve the illegal nature?

aerethan wrote:

theunicorn wrote:Let me pose a different question to you all.

You see an auction on eBay that is a recast.
Lets say a seller that you have watched for a month or two and (s)he only lists items every tues/wed with a private seller&buyer restrictions and the auctions were 24hour listings. every week you see the same lot of 30 chaos terminators get sold, and you see the buyers leave positive feedback.

Would you buy the product? even though you know its a garage recast.

I likely would if it were the right product at the right price and the right quality. More likely that I'd end up casting the part myself though as I have the facilities to.

Agreed on that issue.

But anyway I think if you recast plastic in plastic, and pewter in pewter, then don't brag about it in public and you should be fine.

Texas Instrument wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:
Also, you can't say they aren't entitled to jack (and be correct). The law is against you on this. They are, in fact, legally entitled to the income from that (insert model here) that you copied. Since they're the only legal producer of the item, they're legally entitled to the income for all copies of said item.

I'm calling shenanigans. The reason most people have listed that they recast is "because GW doesn't sell the item".

Say I recast 22 ig meltas, to cite a popular example. GW, for whatever reason, gets wind of it and their legal team takes me down for the cost they are out since I didn't buy it. Plus punitve blah blah blah...
So what am I paying for? 22 ig command boxes? I only recast the one arm, not the box that arm comes in. No civil court in the world would make that ruling.
So they charge me for what? 22 melts arm bits? Total comes to... Oh, they don't sell it. So they are out zero dollars.
Or would I get charged their cost to make 22 arms? Three bucks of plastic? And to get it they spent how much on lawyers?

That ("because GW doesn't sell the item") doesn't change the illegality of it, though.
Your example on Meltas was unfortunately incorrect, though. GW does sell them separately:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440277a&prodId=prod1400031
Granted, you'd have to convert your IG to carry these but, for legal purposes, they do create what you're casting.

Even if they didn't, however, the fact is that GW still owns the rights to that bit. It is their legal option to make it available or simply "sit" on the copyrighted piece (like car manufacturers do with technology to improve MPG). Just because they are not producing it, that does not give you a legal option to make copies of their piece, regardless what you intend to do with it.

aerethan wrote:the sales lost is not all they will sue you for. They will sue for punitive damages, as well as likely legal fees.

Keep in mind that the only reason they WOULD sue someone for recasting would be to make an example of them, as a certain lawsuit comes to mind. It's not that they want their money back, it's that they want to instill fear into potential infringers.

You forget that it's not really about WHAT you copy, it's about the ACT of copying without permission.

A record company could sue you for illegally downloading a single song. That doesn't mean they want their $.99 for the song, they want damages and that same fear put into potential downloaders.

Agreed 100%.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:The only way that you're literally replicating the GW part is by casting the same part in the same medium. If your resin is different, it's not really the same thing that you've created is it? It looks the same, and performs the same function, but your resin might be 58% less likely to melt in a hot car.

This is false logic. You are replicating the item because you're copying it exactly. The medium you copy it in is irrelevant. It's still a copy.
The Choco-Nid we discussed earlier is a good example of this. It is a different medium than GW produces theirs in but, if the molds for the Choco-Nid were made from direct copies of GW IP, then it's still breaking the law. There is no legally correct justification for it.

Disarray wrote:Is it MORAL to sell a pack of 3 killa kanz, and only sell 1 of each of the 4 arms with the kit, with no option to get more gun arms?!

It's a [explicative edited] crime that's what that is....

There is no immorality or illegality about it.
GW is making available what they want to. It is not a moral decision. They did not choose that option because they wanted you to have an annoyance whilst trying to outfit your Kans.
It's definitely not a crime, either.

Texas Instrument wrote:The above has it.
Chapterhouse got busted for what? Selling parts compatible with Space Marines. Not even recasts. Just using the GW brand without permission.

CHS did not get "busted." They got sued. There was no "busting" involved.
As for the lawsuit, however, if you're keeping up with that thread, you see that they're doing quite well in the case & GW has an uphill battle. That's because GW has not been able to prove any of their vague claims yet. What CHS does is VERY different than making a mold of a particular GW piece and, really, has zero bearing on a discussion about recasting.

As has been said before, it's illegal. Just acknowledge that it is and keep on your merry way. Don't try using specious (at best) excuses to justify why you're not breaking the law.
It's like speeding. You know it's illegal. You're going to do it anyway. Just do it with the knowledge that it's illegal.


Eric

IANAL but knowing one that is a war gamer they told me that you can in fact recast your own miniatures you purchase with your own money but the second you make over 100 of them it is considered manufacturing. You are allowed to make duplicates as a back up so to speak, and of course for personal use. You are never allowed to resell them, and you can never produce more than 99 of a single model. He says it falls under some copyright laws passed back in the day that protected VHS and Cassette tapes. Where you can copy a record or CD to cassette all day long as long as you own it, but you are limited to making 99 copies of it. Once you hit 100 the courts viewed that as manufacturing.

This of course was years ago I was told this. Who knows how IP law has changed. I am sure it has changed a ton given the giant push of technology and how easy it is to pirate things these days.

After reading through the thread I get the feelling that those who are saying it's legal to recast for personal use are assuming this to be true based on the laws regarding backing up your music.

Although I do respect the law, I do think it's cruel that GW sometimes sells their kits with a less than ideal amount of parts. It's intentionally done by them so you buy more kits. Sorry, I'm not spending $50 for 2 more psycannons!

Infreak wrote:After reading through the thread I get the feelling that those who are saying it's legal to recast for personal use are assuming this to be true based on the laws regarding backing up your music.

Actually, the law is always behind technology. The DCMA didn't come out until 1999 and had so many pages mentioning cassette tapes. A lot of copyright laws are very vague and are meant to cover a broad spectrum. You can technically reprint a piece of art you purchase for your personal use, as long as you paid for it. Same thing with images. Models/sculptures/miniatures fall under that clause, which is why a lot of people say you can recast for personal use.

Like I mentioned earlier this is coming from a lawyer who was also a war gamer, though it was a long time ago and I cannot validate how accurate they were. They could have been talking out their butt for all I really know.