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This has probably come up before, but I didn't want to trawl through the thousand odd posts on casting. I seen loads of videos on you tube etc of people making moulds and recasting miniatures. My two questions are:

1) If you have a miniature is it legal to recast it? (or are you infringing on copyright etc?)
2) And if it is legal - is it morally right to do it? (or is it stealing from the original manufacturer?)

What are everyones thoughts and opinions on this?

1) Generally speaking... it is illegal and you are infringing on copyright. Like with all other things there's a certain amount you can get away with (Say using GS to cast more of a specific accessory bit or icon). But using silicon and resin to make more space marines instead of buying them... that's worse, and if you then sell those copies on E-bay, well now you're looking at a visit from Immigration and Customs Enforcement and a discussion on the laws reguarding the sale of counterfiet goods ...

2) Depends on your morals. If you buy some official GW greenstuff, use it to make a mold of the cadian command sprue gas masks and then use those molds to to make more gasmasks from more GW greenstuff.. what do you think? Your money is all going to GW. But You aren't buying 100 command squad boxes to get those gasmasks. Also there's the matter of if you think it's still illegal if you don't get caught.

Yes it's definately illegal. While any kind of recasting is illegal you can get away with minor stuff and no one will care.

No one can judge whether it's moral but you. Some people think it is and other don't. In the end the only morals you need to care about are your own.

Thanks for your thoughts - I think I'll just stick to buying the stuff on e-bay!

Legal? Yes. For personal use.
Legal to resell? No.

Moral? Only you can decide that for yourself. If I were making a, say, wraithguard army, I would not think twice about casting my models. Nor would I if I needed 16 blasters that sell from bits sites for $7 each.


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Ghostofman wrote:1) Generally speaking... it is illegal and you are infringing on copyright.

4M2A wrote:Yes it's definately illegal.

False.

Personally I dont think casting small things like weapons and shoulder pads is anything wrong at all. Say you've got your own chapter and decide to scuplt a custom Shoulder Pad outa green-stuff, whats easier to do. Cast your scuplt including shoulder pad or rescuplt the lot?

Dont think casting entire models is a good idea tho

I'm not a lawyer, and thus my comments are not informed by a comprehensive understanding of IP law. Rather, I have built my understanding by reading the weekly "is casting legal?" thread for the past several years. People will swear up and down that it is illegal and the blackest of sins. Others will say that as long as chant the correct verses as you pour the resin, you'll be in the clear. Recasting warnings always remind me of the warnings on mattress tags that boldly claim that snipping tags is an offence punishable buy law. If you aren't familar, see link:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090227001250AAMFFd5

Also, the morality is best determined by you. Personally, I look at it as whether my actions would cause any real harm to anyone. Not theoretical harm, but real harm.

ph34r wrote:Legal? Yes. For personal use.

There's a great big grey area in the law there... although it's less grey in some countries than others.

From what I've read over the years, a more accurate answer though would be that at least in most western countries, recasting for personal use is technically illegal but you are unlikely to ever be prosecuted for it.


In the US, people like to cite the 'fair use' clause of their copyright laws as justification for recasting... but I've read comments from a number of IP lawyers that point out that Fair Use doesn't actually apply to this sort of situation.

It's only really once you start turning them into commercial products that you get into definite illegal territory, but like the above poster said it's a bit of a grey area. There's nothing to stop you taking a cast of a figure for yourself, just don't try selling it otherwise you may find yourself in a world of .

I recast things all the time. more specifically things that are now out of print or have been gone for a LONG time. I also re-cast things I make myself.

if I DO cast a stock part, its usually so that it can be modified to create something different.

I never sell anything I cast, and I never will unless its mine and I made it.

casting can be an excellent tool for making kit bash parts without destroying the origional, but its also messy, time consuming and pretty high cost by the time its all said and done.

quite honestly, for 16 weapons at $7 a piece, casting material is approx $25 for the trial size (adequate for a few marines or large weapons, the casting resin or material is about the same. you will need casting blocks and clay to do it properly, thats about another $15 at the right place. SO, now you're up to $65 in cost just to attempt to produce the parts.

whats your time worth? to buy them would cost you $122 including shipping. making them yourself assuming you have no errors producing the mold, will cost you $65 and roughtly 3 weeks to complete. (24 cure time per piece with 3 - 6 hours cure time for molds depending on what you buy etc etc)

granted, this is all an estimate. to me its worth it to make rare items that I can modify and spare the original a dismal fate if I mess up.

its all a perspective issue.

need 1000 marines? sure cast away and produce as many as you like. they are all going to be the same shape and stature and you'll look like a fool at any place I know of that we game.

in fact, while I was a red shirt, we had a kid that came in every day for about 2 months and asked to paint a demo piece. we didn't think anything of it. some kids can't afford the luxury and so we sat and taught him how to paint.

then we didn't see him for a while. 2 weeks later, he shows up with a couple nobs and some war trukks and ALL the demo pieces we let him paint. he was just abusing the demo pieces to have boyz he didn't have to pay for.

was it legal? absolutely. we gave them to him. no contest there.

was it moral, oh HELL no. and coming back into the store with them was just an insult to us and our good graces.

bottom line, I would suggest leaving duplicate items of the real thing at home for home use only if thats your plan, otherwise remember that people make a living on this. artists that sculpt the pieces, the writers etc etc.

this IS an industry as well. believe it or not, there isn't as much overhead on the models as you might think. from an insiders perspective into the GW structure, I can tell you they do not make as much profit as a company as you would think.

all just food for thought, YMMV.

happy gaming!

insaniak wrote:In the US, people like to cite the 'fair use' clause of their copyright laws as justification for recasting... but I've read comments from a number of IP lawyers that point out that Fair Use doesn't actually apply to this sort of situation.

Really? I have only ever heard internet IP lawyers say that fair use does indeed apply to the recasting of models for personal use.


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Rimmy wrote:quite honestly, for 16 weapons at $7 a piece, casting material is approx $25 for the trial size (adequate for a few marines or large weapons, the casting resin or material is about the same. you will need casting blocks and clay to do it properly, thats about another $15 at the right place. SO, now you're up to $65 in cost just to attempt to produce the parts.

whats your time worth? to buy them would cost you $122 including shipping. making them yourself assuming you have no errors producing the mold, will cost you $65 and roughtly 3 weeks to complete. (24 cure time per piece with 3 - 6 hours cure time for molds depending on what you buy etc etc)

I am buying a mini casting kit from alumilite. I have used their kits before, for casting custom greatcoat legs for my Imperial Guard.

I plan to cast additional blasters and reaver bike helmets for my Dark Eldar trueborn.

The kit costs me $30. I know how to use it, and it contains everything that I need. The pieces do not take 24 hours to cure, rather they take about a half hour.
I will save myself $90 in completely pointless bits site costs, as well as however much the reaver bike helmets cost (likely around the area of $50, they seem impossible to find on the internet anyway). In the process, I avoid inflating the already ridiculous aftermarket for 40k bits.

Now, when recasting models straight from GW, it's a bit worse, because it's not like there is some crazy lack of supply.

I think I'll take my $100-150 savings on my 3 ounces of tiny plastic rare guns and heads. Technical legality or grey areas be damned.

ph34r wrote:

insaniak wrote:In the US, people like to cite the 'fair use' clause of their copyright laws as justification for recasting... but I've read comments from a number of IP lawyers that point out that Fair Use doesn't actually apply to this sort of situation.

Really? I have only ever heard internet IP lawyers say that fair use does indeed apply to the recasting of models for personal use.


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Rimmy wrote:quite honestly, for 16 weapons at $7 a piece, casting material is approx $25 for the trial size (adequate for a few marines or large weapons, the casting resin or material is about the same. you will need casting blocks and clay to do it properly, thats about another $15 at the right place. SO, now you're up to $65 in cost just to attempt to produce the parts.

whats your time worth? to buy them would cost you $122 including shipping. making them yourself assuming you have no errors producing the mold, will cost you $65 and roughtly 3 weeks to complete. (24 cure time per piece with 3 - 6 hours cure time for molds depending on what you buy etc etc)

I am buying a mini casting kit from alumilite. I have used their kits before, for casting custom greatcoat legs for my Imperial Guard.

I plan to cast additional blasters and reaver bike helmets for my Dark Eldar trueborn.

The kit costs me $30. I know how to use it, and it contains everything that I need. The pieces do not take 24 hours to cure, rather they take about a half hour.
I will save myself $90 in completely pointless bits site costs, as well as however much the reaver bike helmets cost (likely around the area of $50, they seem impossible to find on the internet anyway). In the process, I avoid inflating the already ridiculous aftermarket for 40k bits.

Now, when recasting models straight from GW, it's a bit worse, because it's not like there is some crazy lack of supply.

I think I'll take my $100-150 savings on my 3 ounces of tiny plastic rare guns and heads. Technical legality or grey areas be damned.

all depends on your casting materials. I have not used the alumlite products (though I intend to) and was only reffering to the poly resins that I have been using to cast my minis in the past.

there is no doubt in my mind you could or even should do it.

its just a matter of whats your situation look like. some people don't have the time, space, or energy to cast parts and duplicate them.

trust me, i'm on your side here.

ph34r wrote:

insaniak wrote:In the US, people like to cite the 'fair use' clause of their copyright laws as justification for recasting... but I've read comments from a number of IP lawyers that point out that Fair Use doesn't actually apply to this sort of situation.

Really? I have only ever heard internet IP lawyers say that fair use does indeed apply to the recasting of models for personal use.

Interestingly enough, I've heard that from a number of poeple on the internet, but so far as I can recall the actual lawyers have always said the exact opposite.

Fair Use applies to things like making backup copies of CDs, or copying a book onto your kindle. Format shifting, or preserving the original. Not making copies of something that you want multiples of so that you don't have to go out and buy more of them.


And in much of the rest of the world, there is no 'Fair Use' clause. Up until a couple of years ago, there was actually no legal way in Australia to put music onto an ipod.

insaniak wrote:

ph34r wrote:

insaniak wrote:In the US, people like to cite the 'fair use' clause of their copyright laws as justification for recasting... but I've read comments from a number of IP lawyers that point out that Fair Use doesn't actually apply to this sort of situation.

Really? I have only ever heard internet IP lawyers say that fair use does indeed apply to the recasting of models for personal use.

Interestingly enough, I've heard that from a number of poeple on the internet, but so far as I can recall the actual lawyers have always said the exact opposite.

The only actual lawyers I can recall just popped in to say how they were indeed lawyers but couldn't really tell us whether or not it was in fact legal.

I'm also going to put my mod hat on for a moment, and ask that people keep away from the specifics of casting GW's (or anyone else's) miniatures. Whether or not you personally believe it's legal, the Dakka management prefers to not encourage specific discussion of recasting to avoid potential legal issues.

Can do, insaniak.

Ph34r- as with every law question it depends where you are however in the UK (where the OP is) it is definately illegal to recast miniatures so you don't have to buy more.

4M2A wrote:Ph34r- as with every law question it depends where you are however in the UK (where the OP is) it is definately illegal to recast miniatures so you don't have to buy more.

a valid point. legality is relative.

but to the OP's question, is morality relative?

its someone elses work. to duplicate it without paying homage to them is still stealing their work.

like I said, I only recast my own items, or things you simply cannot buy anymore. (of date, only Ral Partha models who had the original molds destroyed)

As long as you're not selling it or making a stink about them being your recasts, nobody ever needs to know, and it's up to you to decide.

I am a recaster. I have been doing it for quite a short time, but it has become a rather enjoyable part of my hobby.

For me, casting lets me stay active in the hobby. I have three kids and a wife in nursing school... Neither of us has an income atm, we pay our bills with student loans and the state helps me buy food. I have a stunningly vast collection of figures from years of gaming and as a GW employee. I am able to cast up bits that let me do things that would otherwise be prohibitively expensive, like the squadron of thunderwolf cavalry I am working on using recast juggernauts.

Does this hurt GW's bottom line? No, I wouldn't have bought those juggernauts, or all those meltaguns, or those other bits I have crafted. I would have proxied them, or done without, but the quality of the game I enjoyed would not be as good. Nor would it be as good for the community in which I play. Enthusiastic hobbyists with good looking armies are a driving force in this hobby, and GW knows it. Maybe I can't spend money on minis now, but maybe the guys I game with can. Better game and hobby experiences encourage folks to sink more dollars into this stuff.

I'm willing to admit that this may be viewed as cynical rationalization for cheapskate behavior, and on some levels that is true. But my recasting isn't costing GW a red cent, and may be contributing indirectly to their bottom line.

Does this make recasting okay? No. It makes what I am doing okay. Legally, I'm not sure if what I am doing is protected or not. Morally, I believe I am in the right: we have no obligation to facilitate GW's profiteering, but we do have an obligation to our game and hobby communities. I am able to stay active and competitive, produce inspiring and exciting models, and provide fun experiences for my friends.

If it is actually illegal (something which seems to be disputed somewhat in the first place) surely the fact that GW packs too few pieces in their boxes is an extenuating circumstance. Take my issue as an example. I need 22 meltas for my IG army, and only a single box (the command squad box) contains one example of the weapon. (ignore for a second that the weapons can be bought in metal. That's not the case for so many weapons.)

I sculpt, cast, and recast as I need to. recasting to sell is way in the black. If i recast an OOP piece to complete an eBay model, then I feel no bad feelings. When I modify existing models and the cast/recast the legs, again no bad feelings. Also casting can be done very cheaply now, approximately $20.00. My blog in my sig goes into more detail on mold making materials and casting mediums.

Selling recasts is illegal. Immoral to recast for personal gaming purposes? Well...

Why would it be immoral? Because the company who owns the IP is hypothetically losing money. However, I've seen plenty of gamers use models converted from ranges outside the game in question. In this case, the owner of the IP isn't getting any money either.

I don't see how casting up a bunch of meltaguns or whatever for yourself hurts a company any more than converting a bunch of them for the same purpose. Morally speaking, I have no problem with recasting for personal use. If they included sufficient bitz in the boxed set in the first place, you wouldn't even be considering it.

I am not a lawyer but have a little knowledge of UK copyright law. My understanding is that recasting is always illegal in the UK, however, it would be considered a civil offence, not a criminal offence. This would generally mean that GW would have to actively sue you for damages and prove that you've cost them money. If you're making stuff for yourself and not being too loud about it they're not going to bother doing that - it's not worth it. If you start selling it to others, though, it suddenly becomes in their interest to stop you.

Morality is much more personal. You may think that it's immoral to gain things without giving GW the money for them or you may think that the prices they charge are immoral in the first place. Nobody but you can answer that question.

Rimmy wrote:

its someone elses work. to duplicate it without paying homage to them is still stealing their work.

So if I "pay homage" to Jes Goodwin by praying daily to him at a shrine constructed on the corner of my workbench I could recast his stuff?

AS long as it's for your use it is perfectly LEGAL. It is illegal to give them away or to sell them, obviously.

Morality perfectly fine I wouldn't feel bad. It is a form of art/craft so why not. Does GW present immoral business, sure why not. Finecast is a good example. Personally I do not have problems with people molding casting models. It helps less fortunate people as well if they are interested in the hobby.

I could be way off but but that's just me

AS long as it's for your use it is perfectly LEGAL. It is illegal to give them away or to sell them, obviously.

I guess it needs to be repeated- while it's legal in some places this isn't always the case. In the UK it certainly is not legal.

When asking about casting, you should make it clear what country you are planning to be in when you pour the resin. Laws in different countries control casting/recasting in different ways. What may be fine and good in one may be punishable by fines, etc., in another.

@ Theunicorn

This was really interesting: http://warfrog.blogspot.com/

It's the first time I've seen a good two part mold using IM.

SgtSixkilla wrote:If it is actually illegal (something which seems to be disputed somewhat in the first place) surely the fact that GW packs too few pieces in their boxes is an extenuating circumstance. Take my issue as an example. I need 22 meltas for my IG army, and only a single box (the command squad box) contains one example of the weapon. (ignore for a second that the weapons can be bought in metal. That's not the case for so many weapons.)

GW has the right top package their products however they see fit.

If hotdogs come in packs of 8, and hotdog buns come in packs of 6, does that make it ok for you to steal the extra two buns, because you think they should have been in there in the first place?

What you personally feel entitled to and what the law says is ok are not the same thing.


(And before anyone chimes on on that point, no, I'm not saying recasting is exactly the same as stealing... legally, they're two distinct and different things.)