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insaniak wrote:

SgtSixkilla wrote:If it is actually illegal (something which seems to be disputed somewhat in the first place) surely the fact that GW packs too few pieces in their boxes is an extenuating circumstance. Take my issue as an example. I need 22 meltas for my IG army, and only a single box (the command squad box) contains one example of the weapon. (ignore for a second that the weapons can be bought in metal. That's not the case for so many weapons.)

GW has the right top package their products however they see fit.

If hotdogs come in packs of 8, and hotdog buns come in packs of 6, does that make it ok for you to steal the extra two buns, because you think they should have been in there in the first place?

What you personally feel entitled to and what the law says is ok are not the same thing.


(And before anyone chimes on on that point, no, I'm not saying recasting is exactly the same as stealing... legally, they're two distinct and different things.)

No but you could bake the extra buns.

If GW wont put extra bits in the package they should at least expand their line of bits. If anyone is stealing from GW it would be these bits sites that buy their kits and then part them out at huge profits which GW doesn't get. You could compare it t the used game trade which the game developers have been fighting to curb because o the profits they lose because of it.

keisukekun wrote:No but you could bake the extra buns.

Which would be fine, since doing that doesn't involve reproducing something that is covered by copyright.

Similarly, if you need extra parts for your miniatures, you can always sculpt your own weapons. You don't need to recast GW's parts.

If anyone is stealing from GW it would be these bits sites that buy their kits and then part them out at huge profits which GW doesn't get.

That's not stealing from GW, since the kits that are being split up are being bought from GW in the first place.

The second hand market and recasting are two very different issues... not least because one of them is potentially illegal and the other isn't.

Is it legal? Depends on your local law.

Is it moral? Depends on your conscious.

Regarding local law, which users live in countries where they think it is legal to recast for home use, and what is the basis for your belief?

To put it differently, can you point to the copyright laws of your own country which allow recasting?

@AesSedai
I have a lot of old models I have made complete again with Instamold and procreate. It is outstanding. To avoid the armchair IP police and armchair lawyers I dont post it on here. My replacement recasts usually are better than any forgeworld I have either purchased or seen from friends. Procreate is the way to go when using Insta Mold.

In the UK, it is illegal to reproduce someones copyrighted intellectual property, whereas in the US it is not, as long as it isn't sold.

Is there law on that?

I believe that is the copyright roughly, so yes. Reproducing something won't get you arrested though, but it could get you sued if you do it on a large enough scale for the company to take notice.

I'm facing the typical dark eldar player's problem: blasters. Your instamold and procreate may be just what I need.

Short answer: if you have to ask, probably better off not going ahead with it...

The legality of recasting is easily defined by this similar parallel.

Can you buy a fender guitar and modify it in any conceivable manner you can think of and is that mod allowed by the law? Absolutely.

Can you use that modded fender to play music, even Live shows, even make money with the use of that modded instrument? Absolutely, happens all day everyday.

Can you sell your modded fender for cash money representing to a private party that it is modded? Yup eBay baby.

Can you sell that modded fender in a guitar center acting as a retailer representing to a purchaser that it is a licensed brand new fender guitar? Nope

The moral of the story is personal use, gw cant keep you from casting models in the same way that it can't keep you from using a brick as a proxy for a Rhino.

What GW can and will do is protect themselves from you using there IP to make money without their direct and express permission.

I'm neither encouraging or discouraging recasting, personally I believe in WYSIWYG and only playing with painted armies, and fully support people buying their minis, (especially from their local store, support local biz).

On a more practical level however I liken those who would have no problem with recasting whatsoever to those who attempt to encourage the free sharing of information through illegal DL's, they more likely than not have never had their own business's success rely on a copyrighted IP.

I did some basic research into this and it really is a jungle not intended to be penetratet by the casual explorer.

In the European Union there is a thing called design protection which is as far as I understand it used to protect your specific design/pattern.

Design protection is in turn divided into two subcategories. Registered and unregistered, the first is something you apply for before you launch the new design and is valid for 25 years. The second is automatic and is valid for 3 years (there is no way to go back and make an unregistered registered afterwards).

If you violate these rights and loose in a court you will probably pay penalties for any damage you might have caused to the company (by selling products, by damaging the reputation for showing off inferior products, etc.)

The big question here would be did GW apply for design protection back in 87? If they did well then the design protection expires next year and we will be free to produce Marines, Orks, Squats and Eldar (most other races are newer so we'll have to wait for those).

WolfTalon wrote:The legality of recasting is easily defined by this similar parallel.

Can you buy a fender guitar and modify it in any conceivable manner you can think of and is that mod allowed by the law? Absolutely.

Can you use that modded fender to play music, even Live shows, even make money with the use of that modded instrument? Absolutely, happens all day everyday.

Can you sell your modded fender for cash money representing to a private party that it is modded? Yup eBay baby.

Can you sell that modded fender in a guitar center acting as a retailer representing to a purchaser that it is a licensed brand new fender guitar? Nope

The moral of the story is personal use, gw cant keep you from casting models in the same way that it can't keep you from using a brick as a proxy for a Rhino.

What GW can and will do is protect themselves from you using there IP to make money without their direct and express permission.

I'm neither encouraging or discouraging recasting, personally I believe in WYSIWYG and only playing with painted armies, and fully support people buying their minis, (especially from their local store, support local biz).

On a more practical level however I liken those who would have no problem with recasting whatsoever to those who attempt to encourage the free sharing of information through illegal DL's, they more likely than not have never had their own business's success rely on a copyrighted IP.

This 'similar parallel' is completely misguided.

If you bought a fender guitar, you could measure it and create plans - then craft an identical guitar.

You could play the guitar, you could gig with the guitar, you could even sell the guitar - but not with a fender badge.

If you sold the guitar as 'a fender' then you're profiting from fenders intellectual property rights.


You're completely right on the brick as a rhino thing, mind. As long as you have bought the rule book, you're entitled to play the game with whatever gaming pieces you like.

There is nothing to stop you making all your gaming pieces out of greenstuff - whether you sculpt them or cast them yourself. You're only gonna run into problems if you want to use them in a GW/GW event or sell them to people.

If thay are GW models you are recasting I say go for it, the gready bastards dont deserve the money.

the legal issue is a least 90% of the time irrelevant (as long as your not selling them), scince nobodys coming to your house on a "model inspection". i think it is completely defendable to recast if: you are recasting something which isnt for sale anymore, a personal variant (like custom shoulder pads whit your own chapter badge) or single bits like meltaguns or blasters or whatever. as long as your not actually making more models nobody should ever argue whit you. you might argue that GW are greedy bastards that dont deserve your money ( you took the words right out of my mouth Kwapple) but thats upp to you.

AG. wrote:

WolfTalon wrote:The legality of recasting is easily defined by this similar parallel.

Can you buy a fender guitar and modify it in any conceivable manner you can think of and is that mod allowed by the law? Absolutely.

Can you use that modded fender to play music, even Live shows, even make money with the use of that modded instrument? Absolutely, happens all day everyday.

Can you sell your modded fender for cash money representing to a private party that it is modded? Yup eBay baby.

Can you sell that modded fender in a guitar center acting as a retailer representing to a purchaser that it is a licensed brand new fender guitar? Nope

The moral of the story is personal use, gw cant keep you from casting models in the same way that it can't keep you from using a brick as a proxy for a Rhino.

What GW can and will do is protect themselves from you using there IP to make money without their direct and express permission.

I'm neither encouraging or discouraging recasting, personally I believe in WYSIWYG and only playing with painted armies, and fully support people buying their minis, (especially from their local store, support local biz).

On a more practical level however I liken those who would have no problem with recasting whatsoever to those who attempt to encourage the free sharing of information through illegal DL's, they more likely than not have never had their own business's success rely on a copyrighted IP.

This 'similar parallel' is completely misguided.

If you bought a fender guitar, you could measure it and create plans - then craft an identical guitar.

You could play the guitar, you could gig with the guitar, you could even sell the guitar - but not with a fender badge.

If you sold the guitar as 'a fender' then you're profiting from fenders intellectual property rights.


You're completely right on the brick as a rhino thing, mind. As long as you have bought the rule book, you're entitled to play the game with whatever gaming pieces you like.

There is nothing to stop you making all your gaming pieces out of greenstuff - whether you sculpt them or cast them yourself. You're only gonna run into problems if you want to use them in a GW/GW event or sell them to people.

Fenders are bought and modded then used alllllllll the time and they still retain the fender "badge". On the professional level most musicians mod their guitars to the point where they are more mod and less brand name, they are still considered that "particular brand. ". The guitar company doesn't care as long as John Mayer gets up there and says, "yeah I play a fender strat."

Who cares, GW is the worst.

honetly this is more a moral issue with some technical bits.

for instance, its morally ok for personal use, the general populace has agreed on that thus far. Legally? from a personal perspective, yeah there may be laws and regulations. but who is going to enforce them? unless your putting a major dent in a companies profits i can bet the most you would get is a fine and a slap on the hands, if that.

Do i think recasting is OK? to a certain extent yes. i would recast weapons or make mods to cast, i would not recast a factory model and duplicate them. even though with PP Products that would be easy. only time i would learn to cast is to make bits i may need. and it would be for personal use. i believe in promoting the hobby and FLGS.

This brings up the question that is it still illegal to sell a recasted model even if its out of print?
My nopinion is that if you have the supplies, then go for it. Its not THAT bad, seeing as youll still need to buy some things from GW, so as long as youre not selling the recasted models i think its fine.

Legal? Seems that opinions vary. If you ever find yourself in a situation that involves subpoenas and lawyers you'll have your answer.

Moral? Know thyself.

And just because I feel like saying it, I feel that eBay is more of a financial blow to the GW bottom line that recasting ever possibly could be. I got back into the hobby in Oct 2009 and since that time I've spent around $1,000 on various items of GW terrain, vehicles, troops, etc. Not one cent of that made it back to GW. Even my FLGS isn't really cashing in on me because my purchases are limited to peripherals (paints, GS, etc). The economy is in the tank and eBay is a buyers market right now.

Not trying to derail the thread, just sayin'. Recast? Whatever. eBay? Killing GW.

*Edited for date I got back into this. It's been one big long blur ever since.*

Skalk Bloodaxe wrote:Legal? Seems that opinions vary. If you ever find yourself in a situation that involves subpoenas and lawyers you'll have your answer.

Moral? Know thyself.

And just because I feel like saying it, I feel that eBay is more of a financial blow to the GW bottom line that recasting ever possibly could be. I got back into the hobby in Oct 2009 and since that time I've spent around $1,000 on various items of GW terrain, vehicles, troops, etc. Not one cent of that made it back to GW. Even my FLGS isn't really cashing in on me because my purchases are limited to peripherals (paints, GS, etc). The economy is in the tank and eBay is a buyers market right now.

Not trying to derail the thread, just sayin'. Recast? Whatever. eBay? Killing GW.

*Edited for date I got back into this. It's been one big long blur ever since.*

But everythings from Ebay comes from GW anyways, so although it hasnt gone directly to GW it gets there.

Another aspect of the moral issues is now that GW is doing Finecast it is even less identifiable that someone is doing resin castings...

Morally speaking, having something go unnoticed should decrease the chance of being caught so to speak... which would then decease the moral issues, which would then encourage resin casting.

Another vaguery in US copyright law is that "personal use" has limits, one of them being quantity. For example, doing a few plasma pistols may be fine but re-casting 500 plague monk staves for your Skaven plague-themed army is not.

In the US, I don't think you can successfully make a fair use argument unless you are a teacher, and are recasting to teach a class to play 40k. I'm not a lawyer, but the relevant statute is not particularly long, riddled with loopholes, or otherwise ambiguous.

If you think it does, I'd like you to explain what basis you think there is for recasting works of sculpture.

--

You also asked about the moral element. Well, that's a little different. I myself do recast small bits for use with my bases and scenery. I've never recasted an entire model, just things to break up for scenery. I don't think I have some god-given legal right to do so, I just don't care. Your morality may be less flexible. If I felt the need to rationalize it (I don't) I suppose I could say that no one is getting hurt, because forgeworld isn't losing a sale anyway: If I could not recast, I would not buy Rhino doors to cut up and use on bases, and the models never leave my house (unless I take them somewhere to play a game, which really never happens anymore). I suppose I could also say that, in my opinion, GWS has lost a great deal of moral authority making an argument it's wrong to rip off their IP (a right that they didn't feel extended to Michael Moorcock, or James Cameron, or Robert Heinlein, or any of the other many people they have ripped off in years past) and that what goes around comes around. My recasting a bolter that I glued to a base to use to a counter isn't making me millions of dollars, as opposed to say, the symbol of chaos undivided, or the image of a current t-800 necron warrior, etc etc etc....

But at the end of the day, those rationalizations are irrelevant. I just don't care. If that makes me a terrible person, I guess I'm a terrible person.

I believe if I use the models just for Scenary and when I say this like 1-5 men in total its ok but thats it

Legal? Yes if you DO NOT resell the casts. If you sell them as GW product your commiting a crime. insaniak though your example is wrong, your not taking two extra buns from another package in this, in fact the closest comparison would be buying the bread mix, a bread maker, and making two more hot dog buns at home on your own time.

That said if you attend a GW event with recast minis and are found out, they do have the right to not allow you to use those figures, and can even ask you to leave, so if you do recast then recast metal as metal and plastic as plastic.

Now onto the moral issue, as someone who has worked for a toy and hobby store and Hobbytown USA I can tell you morally I find it perfectly A-okay to recast. Especially when I worked at the independent store we had the stuff to make casts BESIDE the model kits. The other issue I have personally with GW is thier enormous mark up, when compared to other mainstream kits. Compareing scale to scale you can buy high end quality tanks, soldiers, and aircraft ESPECIALLY the aircraft for 10 to 20 dollars less then a GW kit. I mean a Stormraven is what close 70 bucks? A same 'close to scale' F-4 Phantom will run you 25-35 bucks max. And be just as if not more detailed.

winnertakesall wrote:I believe that is the copyright roughly, so yes. Reproducing something won't get you arrested though, but it could get you sued if you do it on a large enough scale for the company to take notice.

Anyone can commit as many crimes as they like without being prosecuted until they get caught. It doesn't make the crimes legal.

What I mean is, can you point me to the US Copyright Office's web pages which say it's legal to recast stuff as long as you don't sell it? Everything is online.

I would be tempted to recast if only get hold of Meltaguns and Servo arms. The former can only befound in singles or perhaps doubels in the official kits and are stupidly expensive to get from bits sites.

The latter are impossibel to get hold of as separate bits. I have never seen one on a bitz site...ever.

I would have no qualms abotu re-casting these bits for example (assumign i had the equipement or ability). I think i would draw the line at casting entire minis though.

Praxiss wrote

I think i would draw the line at casting entire minis though.

Why stop there? It's all the same to GW. If you decided to circumvent buying products from GW by casting them yourself it seems arbitrary to decide that one bit is better or more ethical to cast than another. Unless it is to lower the chances of getting noticed, I don't get it. I saw a great truescale army here on dakka once upon a short time ago that recasted tons of terminator legs. It thought it was awesome. It seems to have vanished in the night. A metlagun or 30 terminator legs, there is no difference.

What if GW do not stock the part that i am after?

I will accept that you can buy a it of melta guns, fair enough.

To calrify - i am tryign to get hold of servo arms for conversion on my iron Warriors Asp. Champions (for purposes of fluffiness). I cureently have 2 metal ones that are leftover from a different project whcih involved usign the body and other bits form the metal DO Techmarine. Currently, the only way for me to get more servo arms is to buy more techmarines, which seems stupid. if i have bought the basics, and only want copies of the specific part, which GW (or any other company as far as i have been able to find) will not produce/sell separately, what is the alternative?