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Miguelsan wrote:

shasolenzabi wrote:Squats-discontinued space dwarves, the guy who sculpted the molds and minis worked for an allied company, when GW went big, he asked for a job, got turned down and went home with the molds. But another race that was Tolkien/DnD based mixed with Hell's Angels/Miners/trench warfare

This sounds interesting, do you have a source for further info?

M.

Agreed.

First I have heard of this.

I think we'll find that everything is inspired by something. Nothing is born out of a vacuum. The only way to change this would be to lock a newborn into a darkroom with wires hooked up to it to provide it food and water and then interrogate it when it turns 18 and see what it says... too bad that (if it survives) it probably won't be able to communicate in any intelligible manner... (and that doing that may or may not be considered torture of the worst possible kind by the hippy media )

SgtSixkilla wrote:
Tons of things aren't necessarily ripoffs, even though they look or seem the same. Tons of things are just a natural extensions of other things. If you want war in space, you need space army dudes, and who are loosely considered (by themselves at least) to be the most badass army dudes we have on earth? The US Marines. Short leap to make the baddest army dudes in space "Space Marines". It's a natural extension. The world is full of stuff which has been "invented" several places around the world at virtually the same time, with no obvious connection between them. What does connect them is history.

You know other countries have Marines right? The US isn't even remotely close to being the first country to have Marines for that matter, and pretty much every countries Marines consider themselves to be 'the most badass army dudes we have on earth'. For that matter, US Marines are hardly 'the most badass army dudes we have on earth'.

AvatarForm wrote:

Miguelsan wrote:

shasolenzabi wrote:Squats-discontinued space dwarves, the guy who sculpted the molds and minis worked for an allied company, when GW went big, he asked for a job, got turned down and went home with the molds. But another race that was Tolkien/DnD based mixed with Hell's Angels/Miners/trench warfare

This sounds interesting, do you have a source for further info?

M.

Agreed.

First I have heard of this.

True about GW legal denying things.

They even denied any knowledge of GW hit with C&D order by 20th Century/Dark Horse when AVP came out and the quickly produced 4th ed Nid dex arrived.

Oh that was so long ago, But way back, GW was a involved with Citadel Miniatures(their sculpt guys and Marauder minis(allies) Maruader made the squats along with Citadel, and there were some metal Giants they made for WHFB. When GW went big and public traded for max profits and to stay alive, they and Marauder went their separate ways as I recall, remember this was back in the early/mid 1990's now. Since that happened the squats suddenly disappeared and they were never to be spoken of on the old GW forums when they had them until 2002.(I was up for mod status at that forum back then).

That is sadly all I can tell you about this. all the rest is likely to be whatever GW decides to tell us as they now are the victors, and the victors write the history books.


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http://www.solegends.com/marauder/index.htm


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a 1999 computer page, old image I know
http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt03spacedwarfs.htm


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http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt302spacedwfcommand.htm


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http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt303spacedwarfheavies.htm


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Here they finally mention the term "Squat"
http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt304thuddgun.htm

Whats even worse is in Iron Man 2 the movie, he is chased by these robots that look very similar to the tau, and the numbers on their shoulders even say VX-88 (don't exctly remember the numbers but i do remember its VX, shockingly similar to the tau's XV designation)

http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt305squatbikes.htm

Notice all were introduced in 1988, back when I was buying stuff, and they were listed in this "archive" as it were in 1999, but they had stopped being made before that time. But they were still blisters on sale at that time of 1999 stocks left over, maybe it was poor sales, or limited likes that contributed looking back, so maybe, if the issues were a dispute, the mold makers did not have a strong enough case. No matter what what it was, the Squats were erased as it were from the fluff in further editions such as 3rd edition.


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The IG lost a lot of stuff as well,
http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt503imperiallandspeeder.htm

http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt7mercenaries.htm

http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt505imperialrapier.htm

RT509 - Guards on Motorbikes


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Space Minotaurs
http://www.solegends.com/citrare/40kminotaurs.htm


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Original Jokearo
http://www.solegends.com/citrare/gyrinxjok.htm


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A history that does not ever mention marauder miniatures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_Workshop

Most of this is Tolkien Influenced.

GW IP is totally original and nothing has been inspired by prior sources

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx5buLXy8N0&feature=related

M.

Iron Gryphon wrote:Whats even worse is in Iron Man 2 the movie, he is chased by these robots that look very similar to the tau, and the numbers on their shoulders even say VX-88 (don't exctly remember the numbers but i do remember its VX, shockingly similar to the tau's XV designation)

The US Navy has been using the VX prefix for developmental and experimental stuff since around 1940. VX-9 would have probably been the appropriate number, as it's used for evaluating airborne special weapons. As they established in 1951, the chances they stole the name from the Tau XV-9 are slim at best with our known technological limitations re: time travel.

Ouze wrote:

Iron Gryphon wrote:Whats even worse is in Iron Man 2 the movie, he is chased by these robots that look very similar to the tau, and the numbers on their shoulders even say VX-88 (don't exctly remember the numbers but i do remember its VX, shockingly similar to the tau's XV designation)

The US Navy has been using the VX prefix for developmental and experimental stuff since around 1940. VX-9 would have probably been the appropriate number, as it's used for evaluating airborne special weapons.

Don't think so, the only drones that could fly were air force.

In any case, I've been browsing pics, and couldn't find a single one with a VX code on it.

The connection between Blizzard and GW as I've heard it said here before: GW wanted to put out real time strategy versions of Warhammer Fantasy and 40K for the PC since Space Hulk did well. They talked to Blizzard about it because they were doing well with Diablo. Blizzard developed the game and so forth and then GW decided to pull the plug and focus on selling miniatures.

Blizzard had done all of the hard work on the games and thought it would be a hit, so they changed the design of the models enough so GW couldn't sue them and released Starcraft and Warcraft.

Elves, orcs, insectile alien killbeasts, and people in power armor are staples of science fiction. A person can't write a truly original work of any sort without some references or ideas from another piece.

TSR got sued by Tolkienn's people in the 70's for using the term "orc" until TSR figured out that Tolkienn got the term from mythology. The Lord of the Rings is based Anglo-Saxon legends (the Ring of the Niebelungs and the Kalevelah in particular). Darth Vader's helmet is based on samurai helmets, Star Wars is based on Akira Kurosawa movies. 40K is heavily influenced by Judge Dredd, the first Imperial bikes were copies of the Judge Dredd motorcycles, Citadel had the rights to the Judge Dredd game. In one of the Rogue Trader books, there's a picture of a Space Marine that used a Dalek's undercarriage, Citadel had the license to Dr. Who at the time and used the bitz off one.

It all started out as homages, it wasn't foul play until GW started threatening to sue people for doing the same things they did back in the day.

Also worth noting is that way back when (80s) WHFB had night elves...

What is interesting about the number of claims of GW theft is the lack of actual cases of GW being bought to book for it - its almost as if allot of the claims are simply made up on the internet? Hmmm can't be, that only leaves - ITS A GW CONSPIRACY!1!!

wittzo wrote:... They talked to Blizzard about it because they were doing well with Diablo... so they changed the design of the models enough so GW couldn't sue them and released Starcraft and Warcraft.

Does not compute. Diablo came after Warcraft.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

wittzo wrote:... They talked to Blizzard about it because they were doing well with Diablo... so they changed the design of the models enough so GW couldn't sue them and released Starcraft and Warcraft.

Does not compute. Diablo came after Warcraft.

It's always been a persistent rumour however, with there being clues allegedly being dropped in the games ("This Warhammer cost me 40k" anyone? ) In an interesting (if true) sidenote, supposedly this is where the concept for Tyranid Raveners came from as a swipe back at Blizzard with GW "stealing them back" from Starcraft...

All I was saying is that the story given but wittzo doesn't make chronological sense - they couldn't have gone to Blizzard in 1996 (when Diablo was out), about a potential game, and then had Blizzard go back in time to 1994 to release Warcraft: Orcs & Humans.

And yes, the Griffon Rider saying that in Warcraft II was funny.

notprop wrote:What is interesting about the number of claims of GW theft is the lack of actual cases of GW being bought to book for it - its almost as if allot of the claims are simply made up on the internet? Hmmm can't be, that only leaves - ITS A GW CONSPIRACY!1!!

Or they weren't giving a feth, because back then GW was practically nonexistant and completely irrelevant.
It basically wasn't worth the hassle and it still wouldn't be now. IP lawsuits tend to become long and complicated when the matter is as abstruse as this.

If you follow that logic then why does GW issue legal notices to 2 Bob outfits like Chapterhouse and not-for-profit (i'm guessing) fansites?

(It's because if you don't you'll probably end up not having a defensible IP anymore by the way - a quirk of UK IP laws as George Lucas has so recently found).

The real reason is that GWs artists are (like everyone else) influenced by other artists and whatever forms popular culture at the time. They don't hide this fact and I can remember GW artists listing their influences in WD.

notprop wrote:(It's because if you don't you'll probably end up not having a defensible IP anymore by the way - a quirk of UK IP laws as George Lucas has so recently found).

Actually what got Lucas is that they weren't able to establish that the design of the Stormtrooper stuff was 'art'. The court agreed with the modeler/sculptor that the Stormtrooper kit was, in fact, an industrial design, mass produced for utilitarian purposes. This put it into a completely different context where Lucas' copyrights didn't hold as much/any sway.

In the US, which is originally where the case was presented, the courts actually upheld the Lucas copyright. But the sculptor/modeler didn't have any US holdings, so it had to go to UK courts.

There's an excellent website showing off all the products available outside the US.

http://www.sdsprops.com/

All this clip does is say: Necrons - The Arnold Wannabes.
Everyone steals from everything, makes the world go round.

notprop wrote:If you follow that logic then why does GW issue legal notices to 2 Bob outfits like Chapterhouse and not-for-profit (i'm guessing) fansites?

(It's because if you don't you'll probably end up not having a defensible IP anymore by the way - a quirk of UK IP laws as George Lucas has so recently found).

The real reason is that GWs artists are (like everyone else) influenced by other artists and whatever forms popular culture at the time. They don't hide this fact and I can remember GW artists listing their influences in WD.

Nice that you bring it up.
It's because usually 2-Bob Companies and fansites will fold in like a carton if a bigger company even so much as waves the prospect of a lawsuit at them.
In short: Because they know they won't fight back. Hence why the act like a headless chicken when somebody does NOT fold before the mighty company.
It's also why GW doesn't even think about trying to pull the same gak like the Lammasu with bigger companies.
The days where they admitted stealing are long gone.
Remember, GW invented orcs and elves now.

Korraz wrote:Remember, GW invented orcs and elves now.

RIP Tolken

xlEternitylx wrote:

Korraz wrote:Remember, GW invented orcs and elves now.

RIP Tolken

...who at least was honest about grabbing a lot of stuff from mythology.

Yea, but there's a difference between general mythology and specific ideas. References to the Greek gods? Well, we can call that stealing the Greek's ideas, but its so common knowledge that it really isn't a specific theft. The uncanny resemblance of StarCraft Zerg and Tyranid, Terran and SM, that is a little closer to IP theft. But, as I said earlier, everyone stealing each other's ideas makes the world go round.

xlEternitylx wrote: The uncanny resemblance of StarCraft Zerg and Tyranid, Terran and SM, that is a little closer to IP theft. But, as I said earlier, everyone stealing each other's ideas makes the world go round.

RiP Dune and Starship Troopers!

chaos0xomega wrote:

Ouze wrote:

Iron Gryphon wrote:Whats even worse is in Iron Man 2 the movie, he is chased by these robots that look very similar to the tau, and the numbers on their shoulders even say VX-88 (don't exctly remember the numbers but i do remember its VX, shockingly similar to the tau's XV designation)

The US Navy has been using the VX prefix for developmental and experimental stuff since around 1940. VX-9 would have probably been the appropriate number, as it's used for evaluating airborne special weapons.

Don't think so, the only drones that could fly were air force.

In any case, I've been browsing pics, and couldn't find a single one with a VX code on it.

I'm not sure if we're taking about Iron Man 2 or the actual US Navy anymore. If we're talking about Iron Man 2, then the only number on the Naval Drones would have been 961, and indeed, I don't think they flew, from my memory.

If we are talking the actual US Navy, then they only have a few VX squads left, but they do, indeed, exist.

Ouze wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Ouze wrote:

Iron Gryphon wrote:Whats even worse is in Iron Man 2 the movie, he is chased by these robots that look very similar to the tau, and the numbers on their shoulders even say VX-88 (don't exctly remember the numbers but i do remember its VX, shockingly similar to the tau's XV designation)

The US Navy has been using the VX prefix for developmental and experimental stuff since around 1940. VX-9 would have probably been the appropriate number, as it's used for evaluating airborne special weapons.

Don't think so, the only drones that could fly were air force.

In any case, I've been browsing pics, and couldn't find a single one with a VX code on it.

I'm not sure if we're taking about Iron Man 2 or the actual US Navy anymore. If we're talking about Iron Man 2, then the only number on the Naval Drones would have been 961, and indeed, I don't think they flew, from my memory.

If we are talking the actual US Navy, then they only have a few VX squads left, but they do, indeed, exist.

Clearly we were talking about Iron Man 2, you just wanted an excuse to post a pic of VX-9s tail art

Released in early 2000's...




Film released in 1986...

...

Released in early 200's



Film released in 1984...



...Of course GW steals IP.

Speaking of, god help Games Workshop if whoever owns the Terminator franchise now sued them, and an image of a T-800 appeared before a jury next to a picture of a Necron Warrior.

True about GW legal denying things....[.]

Oh that was so long ago, But way back, GW was a involved with Citadel Miniatures(their sculpt guys and Marauder minis(allies) Maruader made the squats along with Citadel, and there were some metal Giants they made for WHFB. When GW went big and public traded for max profits and to stay alive, they and Marauder went their separate ways as I recall, remember this was back in the early/mid 1990's now. Since that happened the squats suddenly disappeared and they were never to be spoken of on the old GW forums when they had them until 2002.(I was up for mod status at that forum back then).

That is sadly all I can tell you about this. all the rest is likely to be whatever GW decides to tell us as they now are the victors, and the victors write the history books.

Marauder were founded by Ally and Trish Morrison, who sculpted for GW/Citadel. They became part of Citadel in the early nineties.

GW most probably decided that Squats had no place in the streamlined 3rd ed 40k.