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That's the same as it was on the 30th.

where does it say that only one player can achieve the mission and be the only one to receive the 500 vps?? i would think that both players can do it the way the mission is written for scenario 1.

@julnlecs: It doesn't. Either or both can get it.

Then why is everyone fighting about having to go 1st. Im using blood angels and im just planning to move fast on my 1st turn and moving my tank into his deployment. It really is a dumb scenario.

Julnlecs wrote:Then why is everyone fighting about having to go 1st. Im using blood angels and im just planning to move fast on my 1st turn and moving my tank into his deployment. It really is a dumb scenario.

Because the person who goes first pretty much automatically gets it. The person who goes second could be stopped depending on army build*. That leads to a 500 point advantage based on the first turn roll. That's tough to come back from.

* Let's look at your example. You get second turn against space wolves with drop pods. They place their guy on the line. You place yours in a fast RB pretty far forward. Turn 1 happens. They move theirs over the line. 3 Drop pods fall around your guy, pop the RB and either kill or pin the squad. You are now down by 500 vp plus whatever the cost of the RB and squad. Or you face DE, they fly Vect and a Wych squad over to your RB surround and kill it or pop and kill you. Etc, so on. You're now down 500 vp. That's why first turn is important.

I doubt i would have my rb all by itself waiting for my opponent to just shoot it up. There is cover and i can surround my tanks around mine to cover it up. And if i had a all drop pod player in the semis on round one id be loving life. I just think the mission is dumb and easy to manipulate for both players. Concentrate on wiping out your opponent and you will probably win.

Julnlecs wrote:I doubt i would have my rb all by itself waiting for my opponent to just shoot it up. There is cover and i can surround my tanks around mine to cover it up. And if i had a all drop pod player in the semis on round one id be loving life. I just think the mission is dumb and easy to manipulate for both players. Concentrate on wiping out your opponent and you will probably win.

It is Dawn of War with amendments. You have to deploy one unit of troops (the one with the messenger) and can deploy UP TO one additional troop (or a Dedicated Transport) and one HQ total.

Your messenger has to be on the board turn one. How are you going to surround your messenger squad on turn one? The best you can do is deploy the messenger squad and one other to surround it with an HQ or messenger squad and transport with HQ inside. Still easy meat for an alpha strike.

Assault armies are going to have a fairly substantial advantage imo for this first mission, after having played a practice game against Templar last night. especially going first...All together this is a strange mission. I just wish it wasn't dawn of war...

Julnlecs wrote:Concentrate on wiping out your opponent and you will probably win.

It isn't the simple.

You both have 2500 VP. If your messenger doesn't survive or get into your opponent's DZ, your opponent has a possible 3000. That makes the margin of victory much harder to get. Remember that the win conditions are 'more than your opponent'. Even if you table your opponent, you still need to win by 1126 to 2500 to get a massacre. That 500 is quite the albatross around your neck.

Mission 2 is the same. Even if you table your opponent, you need 5 scoring units to massacre.
Mission 3, you need to hold at least 3 points (or win by 5 kps). Tabling may not get you that.

ToI wrote:Assault armies are going to have a fairly substantial advantage imo for this first mission, after having played a practice game against Templar last night. especially going first...All together this is a strange mission. I just wish it wasn't dawn of war...

Dawn of war is the only thing saving player 2 from losing there messenger on turn 1. Or atleast night fight is.

ToI wrote:Assault armies are going to have a fairly substantial advantage imo for this first mission, after having played a practice game against Templar last night. especially going first...All together this is a strange mission. I just wish it wasn't dawn of war...

Exactly, a lucky pop on their transport, or a fast moving army could assault your messenger first turn. Not to mention the chance that that unit gets pinned if their transport blows. Ugh. I like the concept of the two messengers passing in the dawn and leading to an escalated engagement.

Where does it say my troop messenger has to be one of the 2 that you deploy from dawn of war? It just says you pick a messenger from a troop unit and it has to deploy on the board. Wouldnt you then be able to choose a third unit to deploy on the board according to the scenario?

No. Troop Messenger must be deployed. Dawn of War only ALLOWS you to deploy 2 and 1 HQ. No specific exemption is given to the DoW deployment rules.

pretre wrote:

ToI wrote:Assault armies are going to have a fairly substantial advantage imo for this first mission, after having played a practice game against Templar last night. especially going first...All together this is a strange mission. I just wish it wasn't dawn of war...

Exactly, a lucky pop on their transport, or a fast moving army could assault your messenger first turn. Not to mention the chance that that unit gets pinned if their transport blows. Ugh. I like the concept of the two messengers passing in the dawn and leading to an escalated engagement.

It's a cool concept but gameplay wise it just has so many balance issues...as it stands I'm probably re-tooling my list to be a little more gankyface than it previously was. Also assault armies are going to have a certain advantage when it comes to the 2nd mission as well, That cluster feth in the center near the objective is just going to make assault armies giggle. All together the armies are going to HAVE to be highly mobile to an extreme to do well in these missions.

I dont really see whats so hard in this scenario. Most likely both players will receive the 500 vps and it will depend on who inflicts the most damage.

That is where divination comes in. If Eldar go first the Eldar can deploy anywhere at first, being offensive/defensive/stupid let oppnent deploy in where he wants (or where you baited him to). Eldrad divination get to redeploy within 18 iches or 12 out of LoS. Mind war lets you pick the messanger out without having to kill the squad. A sugrical strike of sorts. Daemons can do as well with GoC, but GK assasins are not invited to this party as that character will be walking in from the edge. Since Eldar messenger was in the WS it is 500 VPs to eldar + 1 for dead messenger on turn one. This assumes the oppnent messenger squad is on foot (nids) or in a AV10-12 vehicle. If in a venicle the ton of S6 are used to crack them out. AV 14 is an issue but with DoW cracking AV 14 at a distince is an issue for everyone. AV 10-12 not so much. Guard/Marines get to put a rhino/Chimera within 18 inches of enemy messenger spotlight the vehicle and destroy if from afar. A blunt approach but they are not eldar.

ToI wrote: All together the armies are going to HAVE to be highly mobile to an extreme to do well in these missions.

That's 5th edition for you.


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Julnlecs wrote:I dont really see whats so hard in this scenario. Most likely both players will receive the 500 vps and it will depend on who inflicts the most damage.

Nothing is hard about it, but figuring out how to prevent your opponent from getting their messenger across is pretty key to victory.


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Icon720 wrote:That is where divination comes in. If Eldar go first the Eldar can deploy anywhere at first, being offensive/defensive/stupid let oppnent deploy in where he wants (or where you baited him to). Eldrad divination get to redeploy within 18 iches or 12 out of LoS.

Divination does not allow you to ignore the DOW 18" restriction. Edit: Nm, you got the transport and night fight part.

Julnlecs wrote:I dont really see whats so hard in this scenario. Most likely both players will receive the 500 vps and it will depend on who inflicts the most damage.

It's not what is hard about the mission, it's what is imbalanced about the mission. First turn pretty much guarantees you the 500 VP while going second you are pretty much hosed against any army that WANTS to go first. The biggest problem is that you can't keep him off the board to walk on. If you could then it would change the scenario dramatically and make it more balanced

I am so looking forward to the semi finals. With DE and GK countering some of the armies I have issues with opens an oppurtunity for mechdar. I am not a great player but both DE and GK armies I have faced have issues with volume of S6 shooting (DE) and/or eldar mobility (GK). Yeah Eldar.

The only real problem with the first mission is that Victory points gives the advantage to the player that wins the dice off (and gets to choose either 1st/2nd). The bonus points merely makes it even MORE of an advantage to win that roll.

Polonius wrote:The only real problem with the first mission is that Victory points gives the advantage to the player that wins the dice off (and gets to choose either 1st/2nd). The bonus points merely makes it even MORE of an advantage to win that roll.

THAT's why I'm including both Vect and the Baron in my DE list... plus, VP conditions are very favorable for MSU armies...

whembly wrote:

Polonius wrote:The only real problem with the first mission is that Victory points gives the advantage to the player that wins the dice off (and gets to choose either 1st/2nd). The bonus points merely makes it even MORE of an advantage to win that roll.

THAT's why I'm including both Vect and the Baron in my DE list... plus, VP conditions are very favorable for MSU armies...

Inherently favorable, however I feel like MSU has the disadvantage in the deployment for this scenario as your units are easier to kill. Just my thought

ToI wrote:

whembly wrote:

Polonius wrote:The only real problem with the first mission is that Victory points gives the advantage to the player that wins the dice off (and gets to choose either 1st/2nd). The bonus points merely makes it even MORE of an advantage to win that roll.

THAT's why I'm including both Vect and the Baron in my DE list... plus, VP conditions are very favorable for MSU armies...

Inherently favorable, however I feel like MSU has the disadvantage in the deployment for this scenario as your units are easier to kill. Just my thought

I actually already have a build thrown together for DE now because of this mission. Vect steals the init and I charge your messenger on turn 1 with a host of wyches at my back. Vect can kill off just about any squad in the game almost single handedly let alone a pack of angry witches at his back and an army of lances shooting at the enemy vehicle/survivors. Also if I blow the enemy vehicle up good luck with that obsidian grenade!

I know the 1st mission isn't very clear but I think you have to have the messenger alive and escorted into the other deployment zone by turn 6. If you go first and move into your opponents deployment zone great, you have escorted him there but he still has to be in the area by turn 6 and alive. Otherwise it doesn't count.

Now that being said who knows what these guys meant but I tihnk everyone can agree that this is a huge joke of a touranment now.

The way it is worded implies that the messenger needs to make it to the other zone before turn 6. Not, be in there on turn six. This mission is the joke. The other ones are completely fine...with the exception of typos.

Darkwynn wrote:
Now that being said who knows what these guys meant but I tihnk everyone can agree that this is a huge joke of a touranment now.

Sigh. No, we can't agree on that.

This is the same thing that comes up every time they release scenarios for 'AB. Yes, they are not balanced. Big deal. I remember GW's Gladiator tournaments when the scenarios were intentionally broken and you got called a sissy for complaining. Those were the days.

Seriously, man up and play or don't. Just don't complain about it.

Darkwynn wrote:I know the 1st mission isn't very clear but I think you have to have the messenger alive and escorted into the other deployment zone by turn 6. If you go first and move into your opponents deployment zone great, you have escorted him there but he still has to be in the area by turn 6 and alive. Otherwise it doesn't count.

No, "by turn 6" doesn't mean "on turn 6." Consider "I have to pay my credit card bill by September 15" - so long as the task (escort the messenger into the other deployment zone/pay my credit card bill) is done no later than the deadline (by turn 6/by Sept. 15), I've fulfilled the conditional statement.

pretre wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:
Now that being said who knows what these guys meant but I tihnk everyone can agree that this is a huge joke of a touranment now.

Sigh. No, we can't agree on that.

This is the same thing that comes up every time they release scenarios for 'AB. Yes, they are not balanced. Big deal. I remember GW's Gladiator tournaments when the scenarios were intentionally broken and you got called a sissy for complaining. Those were the days.

Seriously, man up and play or don't. Just don't complain about it.

Pretre, I am not talking about the balance of the scenarios. Considering I won Ard boys before I think I have a pretty good understanding of the tournament. The last year after I won the tournament went downhill from there. The scenarios always look like they are done last minute. No graphic design work or professionalism is put into it. They split the finals into three regions (which means they are not finals) and lowered the prize support/ effort into the end tournaments.

It's presented as half ass work to me and on top of that the scenarios are clear as mud. That is my issue with it.



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Janthkin wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:I know the 1st mission isn't very clear but I think you have to have the messenger alive and escorted into the other deployment zone by turn 6. If you go first and move into your opponents deployment zone great, you have escorted him there but he still has to be in the area by turn 6 and alive. Otherwise it doesn't count.

No, "by turn 6" doesn't mean "on turn 6." Consider "I have to pay my credit card bill by September 15" - so long as the task (escort the messenger into the other deployment zone/pay my credit card bill) is done no later than the deadline (by turn 6/by Sept. 15), I've fulfilled the conditional statement.

I know Janthkin and by RAW I agree with you. The mission doesn't make a lot of sense from a players or a TO's viewpoint about the mission. I can only assume they meant what I mentioned before hand but the way its written or till they change it you play it like you said above.

Hey, with a free army on the line I'd play a scenario that included - "roll a D6 each turn, on a 6 you win." What do I have to lose? HOWEVER, I'd still want to try to figure out how to do as well as possible in the event neither player rolled a 6. Not sure how to maximize my chances in this one. The wound allocation issue a big one for a messenger in a terminator squad...


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I actually kind of like the "Gladiator" Concept. When you're someone with a sub optimal army who doesn't play that often, anything that throws people's "perfectly tuned for the standard scenarios beatstick armies" off is fine.

I don't care for the "go first = win" part of this, but it doesn't really hurt the event for me, except perhaps on a philosophical level, in that less skilled players (such as myself) are more likely to win...

All I can say is , welcome to 'Ard boyz. The missions are never clear and to be honest, at 2500 points the games starts to have more and more issues in regards to match ups between codices.

I do agree that they should at the very least proof read these things, but it would be my assumption that the purpose of posting these things so far in advance is to use the public as a huge R&D team, I mean there is know way they could brain storm these missions or scrutinize them as well as the ENTIRE general public.

Now, that being said, if by 9/15 at latest they haven't at least clarified these things then I would say resume the bitch fest.

AB is put on be the sales department, like Janthkin said previously stated I believe, so from a business perspective it only makes sense to lend an advantage to the latest armies that you are trying to sell.

I am not trying to jump on GK more then they have been, but they currently are the easiest army to play.... until Necrons are released ; ) When you have played since 1st like I have you notice these patterns, after all there aim is to make money not just give away free crap...