Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:

Damn I'm too easily bribed with decent female models, for the first time ever, Warmachine releases figures that have me considering the system.

Tree thing is nice too.

+1 to this. While I'm not really considering spending money on the system, all I can say is wow. That there is some quality model.

Definitely getting the eliminators. It'd be nice if they redid Kazazy Assassins with sculpts this nice.

malfred wrote:Okay, so you don't think they belong as per the fluff?

No, I don't think they belong as per the aesthetic.

NAVARRO wrote:What? You dont like either these cartoon monsters or the well sculpted ladies? Both are part of Warmachine and Hordes from the get go... I don't see why you say they don't fit its like saying spacemarinezzz don't fit 40k...

Again, it's not to say I don't think they fit the background. I just don't think that these two very widely divergent styles of sculpting seem like they go with the same system. Either it's ultra-realistic Eliminators or the completely-OTT Legion. Also, I did say the models were good in a genre-neutral sort of way, if they weren't produced for a specific line.

CT GAMER wrote:

Manchu wrote: How much sense do these sculpts make next to any sculpt of Vladimir, for example?

This is a very poor example to use to justify your argument.

Vlad's choice of armor and weaponry is meant to be sort of outmoded/outdated in the setting itself. He is part of the old guard and his appearance is symbolid of this fact.

He is in effect wearing old fashioned things by Khadoran standards.

Sort of like showing up to a Wild West showdown in a suit of platemail...

Don't let that get in the way of your ranting, but maybe choose an example that makes more sense...

So now stating a dissenting opinion is ranting? Just to clarify, no it is not.

Moving on to your substantive post: I am not surprised that you think I gave a poor example given that you totally misunderstood my point. I don't blame you as others (quoted above) also seem to have missed it. It does not matter at all that Vladimir is dressed in old-fashioned stuff. His sculpts do make sense next to other characters, for example Cygnaran, scultps, that are not supposed to be "vintage" at all. The question is one of aesthetics -- low fantasy ("realism") versus high fantasy ("romanticism"). In high fantasy, armor concepts do not need to "work" IRL. If I built a suit of armor from PP's model ranges, it wouldn't make sense. It would be unwearable. That doesn't matter to me -- it can still make for an awesome looking miniature. It's an aesthetic choice -- like I mentioned about SM: they aren't good models if you're looking for "realism" but thankfully, that's not what we're looking for. Same regarding WM/H. The Eliminators, as extremely realistic models don't make sense in a world with someone who wears pauldrons three times larger than his head (at least) or any of the other more "romantic" characters.

Now, you say that my example is poor and I guess you will now say that it was so poor that you could never get that point from it. Fortunately, I already gave another example of this same thing, although you did not bother to consider it in your rush to accuse me of ranting. I used the example of Constance Blaize, saying that while her model might not be as technically good (in terms of proportions or pose) as the Eliminators, it's a much better model for the WM line.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

George Spiggott wrote:

Manchu wrote:And just like with GW, there are other posters standing by to call you a troll if you dare to post that some models look like gak to you.

Aw diddums! Try writing better criticism, like you did later in the thread. I don't agree with any of what you wrote when you clarified your position but I have no problem with it.

"Diddums" doesn't really apply, does it? -- unless you are just trying to be ironic about calling me the troll here. As to "good" criticism, that seems to be premised on the whole Coke v. Pepsi approach. After all, I can right "I agree with OP, this is gak" and you call me a troll. Or I can write a paragraph explaining exactly what I don't like and CT GAMER can say I'm ranting. You can't please all the people all the time.

Manchu, if you think that the Eliminators don't fit in the
aesthetic, then you haven't really seen enough of the
aesthetic to make that judgment call. The setting isn't just
a steampunk setting, it's also a fantasy setting, and assassins
wrapped in cloth with dual daggers fit that aesthetic very well.

I have pored over the galleries on PP's site for years and watched their new releases with great interest over the same period. I have more than enough knowledge of this setting to make that judgment although I would never claim (and have never claimed) that my judgment applies to you or anyone else. It's not that they're wearing cloth or that they have dual daggers. It's that there is nothing more to them than that. They're just really boring for assassins, especially in a world next to Iron Fangs, Men-O-War, and Gun Carriages. They're just not very steampunk/high fantasy. Aside from being painted red and black, they're extremely generic. It's not a new problem by any means. This particular wave just highlights how schizophrenic PP's lines are.

Manchu wrote:Divergent aesthetic. and how schizophrenic PP's lines are.

Some random examples for us to compare ok?



IMO would purely aesthetically fit just nice alongside these

















I will stop here. theres plenty more, not all PP stuff is Overthetop mate.

But I agree with you the line has many ups and downs overall... In this case its a up

Hold on, brother -- it's not just a matter of "ups and downs" in terms of skilled sculpting. Like I mentioned, the Eliminators are great models just in terms of models. The Everblight monsters aren't so good in any way to my eyes but I think there are good Everblight monsters in the line. By contrast, the Eliminators are great models but they just don't particularly "belong" to the Iron Kingdoms much less Khador. I'm glad you posted Sorscha, as she is the leading image for what Khador is like. There is a total disconnect between the Eliminators and her style or Irusk or Vladimir or the Butcher or ... you get the point.

Manchu wrote:Hold on, brother -- it's not just a matter of "ups and downs" in terms of skilled sculpting. Like I mentioned, the Eliminators are great models just in terms of models. The Everblight monsters aren't so good in any way to my eyes but I think there are good Everblight monsters in the line. By contrast, the Eliminators are great models but they just don't particularly "belong" to the Iron Kingdoms much less Khador. I'm glad you posted Sorscha, as she is the leading image for what Khador is like. There is a total disconnect between the Eliminators and her style or Irusk or Vladimir or the Butcher or ... you get the point.

There's a difference there because Sorscha and Butcher are military. Kayazy
Assassins, including Eliminators, aren't. I don't think they're that far apart in
style.

If these had been painted purple/white and labeled "Flame Knife Eliminators" or something, I doubt anyone would have said "just a tic, shouldn't those be Khador rather than Protectorate?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT: Even better, paint them with black hair and olive skin and call them "Idrian Assasins." There's nothing about them but paint that makes them Khador.

Well, they are Khador Allies, so looking like they would fit in with multiple factions kinda fits. They can be mercs afterall.

Mercs means something more specific than that in WM.

More specifically, the Ally rules means something more specific - unlike Mercenary models, which may be fielded in certain Faction armies, Ally units are Faction units which may be fielded in some Mercenary armies.

I kind of like the thought that not everything in PPs games are uniformed in appearance. Also, the models are not so out of place from their respected factions that you can't picture them in that faction...or at least affiliated with that faction.

malfred wrote:Manchu, if you think that the Eliminators don't fit in the
aesthetic, then you haven't really seen enough of the
aesthetic to make that judgment call. The setting isn't just
a steampunk setting, it's also a fantasy setting, and assassins
wrapped in cloth with dual daggers fit that aesthetic very well.

Just to clarify: The Iron Kingdoms are NOT "Steampunk". They are "Full Metal Fantasy" (small nitpick I know).

The company has and does make a distinction on this.

Is it hard to believe that in a nation as big as Khador that various fashion styles and practices might exist at the same time, just as they do in real life?

So what exactly shuld they have been wearing to look properly "khadoran"? Fur hats? That is easily fixed...

CT GAMER wrote:

malfred wrote:Manchu, if you think that the Eliminators don't fit in the
aesthetic, then you haven't really seen enough of the
aesthetic to make that judgment call. The setting isn't just
a steampunk setting, it's also a fantasy setting, and assassins
wrapped in cloth with dual daggers fit that aesthetic very well.

Just to clarify: The Iron Kingdoms are NOT "Steampunk". They are "Full Metal Fantasy" (small nitpick I know).

The company has and does make a distinction on this.

Is it hard to believe that in a nation as big as Khador that various fashion styles and practices might exist at the same time, just as they do in real life?

So what exactly shuld they have been wearing to look properly "khadoran"? Fur hats? That is easily fixed...

Hats might be a bit much..but a bit of fur trim might be just the thing.

Manchu wrote: Aside from being painted red and black, they're extremely generic.

They look like Kayazy to me. Which is of course what they're supposed to look like.

RiTides wrote: especially considering how brittle and non-posable PP's plastic/resinish mix is.

It's not a resiny/plastic mix, it's a PVC plastic variety. It's just that GW has ingrained us to believing that their PVA variety plastics is what we think of when we think plastic models.

It's not surprising, really, since most people only interact with PVC when confronted with piping.




Or making boffers.

derek wrote:

Manchu wrote: Aside from being painted red and black, they're extremely generic.

They look like Kayazy to me. Which is of course what they're supposed to look like.

Sure they do, as they're painted red and black in that pic.

CT GAMER wrote:Just to clarify: The Iron Kingdoms are NOT "Steampunk". They are "Full Metal Fantasy" (small nitpick I know).

I like that phrase but isn't it just a piece of PP marketing rather than a genre? Sort of like "GrimDark"? Although TBH steampunk seems like it can mean anything as long as goggles are involved.

Is it hard to believe that in a nation as big as Khador that various fashion styles and practices might exist at the same time, just as they do in real life?

But, as I mentioned, that's completely beside the point ...

So what exactly shuld they have been wearing to look properly "khadoran"? Fur hats? That is easily fixed...

I dunno, PP doesn't pay me to design models and I'm not saying they should. See, that's a good question for PP and it happens to be the question at the center of my opinion. Also, saying it can be fixed implies that it's broken -- of course, I know you're just assuming my POV for a sec there, not actually admitting you think there is any problem. Anyway, I don't think anyone can gainsay me on giving them a Protectorate paintjob and sneaking them past fans (even fans!) as "Idrian Assassins." The fur hats are not a bad idea -- or, really, fur-lined something. When you look at the Idrians, for example, it's their turbans/wrappings that give them away. Design consistency can be interesting and it's not like PP has never done it before.

Idrians are technically mercenaries and protectorate models, too.

They don't quite fit the Protectorate (uncovered faces, shirtless
bodies, guns!!!), and yet they are allied to them. Thus, Allies.

Idrians are clearly desert nomads (you can tell just by looking at them) and the Protectorate is associated with the desert. So it's pretty clear what the connection is there. The Eliminators, IMO, look like nothing. Girls with knives. Just going by the sculpt, they could work for any faction that allows women to wear pants.

Manchu wrote:Idrians are clearly desert nomads (you can tell just by looking at them) and the Protectorate is associated with the desert. So it's pretty clear what the connection is there. The Eliminators, IMO, look like nothing. Girls with knives. Just going by the sculpt, they could work for any faction that allows women to wear pants.

Point is, allies represent groups that are not quite faction models.

Cygnar Precursor Knights are faction models because of a shared faith,
but since Cygnar isn't a religious state, they are also technically mercenaries.

Constance Blaize is also both Cygnar and Mercenary.

The Cryx Allies are the Cephalyx. These guys aren't any of the main
races for Cryx, either, yet they serve as faction models through the Allies
rule (just like every example in these posts). They make deals with
Cryx, but they aren't exactly Cryxian in nature.

Kayazy Assassins are urban fighters, essentially Russian
mafia hired by nobles. They're not ever going to look like the
military arm of Khador. Just think, what would a Khadoran street
thug look like? Kayazy Assassins. And what would an elite girl
Khadoran street thug look like? Eliminators.

It's like the various abhuman Imperial Guard. They don't look
like "stock" Imperial Guard because they're not. There's back
story that supports the aesthetic.

After staring and staring at these models, I can see where the sculptor tried but IMO, they failed. There is a kind of Cossack tunic called the tscherkessa. The hem falls to about the knee and it is worn with tight-fitting pants, as one might expect with riders. The feel of that iconic style is captured to some extent in the existing Kayazy (check out the officer) but the tunics of the Eliminators have been shortened to the point of being unrecognizable unless one goes about it like a detective.

But if you lengthen the tunic, how do you show off the knives?!

Manchu wrote:After staring and staring at these models...

Try not looking at them for a bit. That's what I did, and they've now grown on me now that I've looked again

malfred wrote:Just think, what would a Khadoran street thug look like?

Super generic? They are girls with tight-fitting clothes and knives. There's really not much more that can be said of them. Contrast that incredibly bland description with how you might describe the Cephalyx, to use one of your examples.

It's like the various abhuman Imperial Guard. They don't look like "stock" Imperial Guard because they're not.

Factions are indeed diverse -- it keeps them interesting, of course. But they also need to have some consistency, some kind of connection that makes them work together visually. Again, the Cephalyx clearly wouldn't be paling around with Cygnarans. Anyone with eyes can tell you that, whether they know a thing about the setting or not. The Ogryn are a good example in this regard -- even though they don't look much like rank & file guardsmen, they are still obviously IG units.

So we can argue all night about whether these chicks fit in with Khador. I mean, they could fit in -- as I have hopefully demonstrated, they do so about as well as they fit in with the Protectorate. Maybe I should rephrase: you can look at it as them not being "Khador" enough but it's better to look at it as them not looking enough like anything except genre-neutral girls with knives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RiTides wrote:

Manchu wrote:After staring and staring at these models...

Try not looking at them for a bit. That's what I did, and they've now grown on me now that I've looked again

I never stopped thinking they are fine models -- for nearly any game and, incidentally, PP games if you want. A little conversion (as CT GAMER pointed out) and you could even use them for Khador.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

malfred wrote:But if you lengthen the tunic, how do you show off the knives?!

The assassin officer has some nasty looking ones tucked into his belt. Maybe it's the stems more than the knives, eh fellas?

Platuan4th wrote:It's not a resiny/plastic mix, it's a PVC plastic variety. It's just that GW has ingrained us to believing that their PVA variety plastics is what we think of when we think plastic models.

Sorry, but that's rubbish. Injection-moulded polystyrene kits existed many, many years before GW started producing miniatures in this medium, and have always been known as plastic kits. GW adopted it precisely because it was well established as the best medium for kits, and because they worked out that it's also far better suited to wargaming than metal or resin. However, it requires a bigger outlay in costs than metal or resin, because of the high quality moulds needed. PP have gone for a cheaper option, and the result is distinctly inferior in terms of detail, customisability and practicality. PP may call it 'plastic', but for most people that word means (in the context of this hobby) injection-moulded polysterene.

PP have gone for a cheaper option, and the result is distinctly inferior in terms of detail, customisability and practicality.

Being inferior in terms of detail is a subjective statement. GW makes beautiful plastics, but I think the PP kits are detailed as well.

The vast majority of PP players don't customize anything, they build stock kits: a byproduct of the fact that all models/units have set weapons/wargear. You don't choose loadouts and wargear like you do in 40K, so the need to customize is not integral to the kits.

Also PP gives you parts in the warjack kits to build multiple warjacks (which can be magnetized to get multile uses from same kit) and all pieces to build a unit. It would be like getting the parts to build all the land raiders in one kit.

How are they not practical exactly?

CT GAMER wrote:The vast majority of PP players don't customize anything, they build stock kits: a byproduct of the fact that all models/units have set weapons/wargear. You don't choose loadouts and wargear like you do in 40K, so the need to customize is not integral to the kits.

Even if you don't need to change wargear loadouts, the lack of variants per squad is still a problem. Unless they're marching in formation, you shouldn't need to have two or three clones in one unit.

AlexHolker wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:The vast majority of PP players don't customize anything, they build stock kits: a byproduct of the fact that all models/units have set weapons/wargear. You don't choose loadouts and wargear like you do in 40K, so the need to customize is not integral to the kits.

Even if you don't need to change wargear loadouts, the lack of variants per squad is still a problem. Unless they're marching in formation, you shouldn't need to have two or three clones in one unit.

But that's not because of the plastic. PP has always been like that. All their old metal units are like that too. I think its just a design decision.

Manchu wrote:Mercs means something more specific than that in WM.

Quite aware of that, seeing as I own a Merc army. They are Allies, so they can be taken in Merc agendas, and looking like they fit in with several armies fits them. All factions in WM/H have many different looks within their factions. Khador has everything from Man O Wars in steam powered armor, to Kossites, to Winterguard to Widowmakers to Assault Commandos. The factions look varied, and have since Prime Mk I. Khador may have the market on heavy jacks, but they have lots of themes in their infantry.