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Come on guys, let's give it a rest. We've had the PP vs. GW thread a million and one times, we're hardly going to tread new ground by turning this thread into the million and second.

Almost too many releases to keep up with. I'll be picking up some Gallows Groves in February, and maybe some Kayazy Eliminators.

Manchu wrote:Pile of new gak?

I find this thread to be aptly named.

You are aware that Frazzled stepping down and becoming a respectable poster once more didn't leave an opening for a new troll-mod on Dakka.

George Spiggott wrote:

Manchu wrote:Pile of new gak?

I find this thread to be aptly named.

You are aware that Frazzled stepping down and becoming a respectable poster once more didn't leave an opening for a new troll-mod on Dakka.

Just because you don't agree with me doesn't make me a troll or justify your name-calling. These models look like gak to me. It's well established that posters can say that models posted in N&R look like gak to them. Please look up any thread in N&R about GW models for a reference. There are no special rules that protect PP from criticism. Now, keep your personal attacks to yourself.

I'm pretty sure that the Eliminators are the best PP female sculpts I've seen - clean, with no exaggerated proportions. Definitely going to be picking them up next year.

Fortunately, none of the rest are releases for factions I play

Manchu - Are you seriously trying to claim that the Eliminators, at a minimum, are not good sculpts?

Dysartes wrote:Manchu - Are you seriously trying to claim that the Eliminators, at a minimum, are not good sculpts?

I think they are objectively good when judged in genre-neutral terms (as if they were random models on Hasslefree or something). They are good pieces of work in the sense that Space Marines are not so good. But that doesn't mean much to me. Space Marines are perfect for what they do -- OTT gothic sci-fi total war. Space Marines are above such petty considerations as "scale" and "realism." These Eliminators excel in those aspects but they don't fit well into the steampunk-fantasy world they're supposed to work in. How much sense do these sculpts make next to any sculpt of Vladimir, for example? Frankly, I find them really, really boring with regard to my expectations from the WM/H genre. I like Constance Blaize a lot better, although her sculpt may not be as good in technical terms. PP see-saws back and forth on these things. You can even see that in this wave -- you've got these very staid Eliminators and then the way OTT chunky, cartoon monsters to join the rest of the chunky, cartoon monsters for Everblight. It's really all over the place.

Manchu wrote:It's well established that posters can say that models posted in N&R look like gak to them.

When you are the one defining what is acceptable to post that will be the case.

Manchu wrote:Please look up any thread in N&R about GW models for a reference. There are no special rules that protect PP from criticism.

Stop pretending it is your criticism rather than your phrasing I'm objecting to.

Ah well, when in Rome and all that.

Marzillius wrote:PP does something, Dakkadakka goes YAAAAAY!

GW does something, Dakkadakka goes BOOOOOO!

There's a lot more that goes into it than that, but I guess oversimplifying the issue better supports your position, so let's just pretend people don't have valid reasons for thinking the way they do and say it's all blind hate/love.

I'm not even sure I get where this is coming from. I've seen a lot of negativity towards PP's various offerings lately in these threads, so I don't know how people can say "PP must be able to get away with anything, nyeeh!"...yeah, there sure is a lot of bias in this thread, but it doesn't seem to be blind PP love to me. We have a lot of people calling all of the sculpts "gak" as usual, and more still accusing PP of "ripping off" GW because a head on one of their beast models has tentacles. How does that say "GW does something, Dakka goes 'Boo!'"...hell, look at the thread title even, "Pile of New gak"...yeah, Dakka <3 PP alright.

George Spiggott wrote:When you are the one defining what is acceptable to post that will be the case.

Them were the rules long before I started enforcing them, as you well know.

George Spiggot wrote:Stop pretending it is your criticism rather than your phrasing I'm objecting to.

Okay, but you have to stop pretending that everyone who dislikes things you like are trolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sidstyler wrote:I'm not even sure I get where this is coming from. I've seen a lot of negativity towards PP's various offerings lately in these threads ...

It just might be because some people genuinely don't like PP stuff even though they would dearly love to since, after 40k, it is the most popular wargame in many areas. Don't get me wrong, I agree that it's more complicated than that. This site is mostly about GW stuff and so PP is bound to be held up as a comparison. A lot of what's written about PP on Dakka is motivated by Coke v. Pepsi sort of zero-sum-fandom. But not all of it. Sometimes, PP just makes stuff that some people sincerely find gakky.

Dysartes wrote:Manchu - Are you seriously trying to claim that the Eliminators, at a minimum, are not good sculpts?

They're not bad, but no better than, say, the GW Death Cult Assassins. While refreshingly free of the usual exaggerated female anatomical details, they're actually rather bland looking. Manchu is right about the other models - they're ugly, unintentionally cartoony, and the level of detail is GW circa 2nd Edition. Seriously, if GW had put them out, this thread would be (a) ten times longer and (b) filled with posters trying to top each other's invective about how rubbish they are.

Tailgunner wrote:Seriously, if GW had put them out, this thread would be (a) ten times longer and (b) filled with posters trying to top each other's invective about how rubbish they are.

That is a fact. And, getting to Sid's question, it contributes to why there is a perception that Dakka is pro-PP. I use Dakka almost exclusively for my wargaming forum needs (shocker, I know) but when I do venture to other sites (usually for WM/H info) I am often shocked to see posters complaining there about PP as bitterly as Dakkanauts complain here about GW. I think it's like family. When you're in your living room with just your parents and siblings everyone feels comfortable saying "Uncle Kirby's a right donkey-cave; I sure wish Matt Wilson was our uncle instead." And that's even the case if you actually like Uncle Kirby. But if you overheard the other family talking, they might say Uncle Matt is a douchebag among themselves. Thing is, as Sid points out, there are plenty of Dakkanauts who don't have good things to say about PP. But it's not even as close to as bitter, hateful, and malicious as the anti-GW invective. And just like with GW, there are other posters standing by to call you a troll if you dare to post that some models look like gak to you.

The eliminators are the best of the bunch by far. Kind of disappointed with the Legion releases. Didn't like the original metal beasts and was hoping for something different when they were done in plastic. Oh well, at least they're cheaper now..

The tree is nice but as far as I can tell there's no variation in them. I know its just a tree, but a little variation would be nice for something that's FA:4 imo; so you don't have so many duplicates if you max out on them.

Manchu wrote:

Dysartes wrote:Manchu - Are you seriously trying to claim that the Eliminators, at a minimum, are not good sculpts?

I think they are objectively good when judged in genre-neutral terms (as if they were random models on Hasslefree or something). They are good pieces of work in the sense that Space Marines are not so good. But that doesn't mean much to me. Space Marines are perfect for what they do -- OTT gothic sci-fi total war. Space Marines are above such petty considerations as "scale" and "realism." These Eliminators excel in those aspects but they don't fit well into the steampunk-fantasy world they're supposed to work in. How much sense do these sculpts make next to any sculpt of Vladimir, for example? Frankly, I find them really, really boring with regard to my expectations from the WM/H genre. I like Constance Blaize a lot better, although her sculpt may not be as good in technical terms. PP see-saws back and forth on these things. You can even see that in this wave -- you've got these very staid Eliminators and then the way OTT chunky, cartoon monsters to join the rest of the chunky, cartoon monsters for Everblight. It's really all over the place.

Okay, so you don't think they belong as per the fluff?

The world of Warmachine and Hordes is bigger than just golem
powered combat, just as 40k is bigger than Space Marines vs.
the Universe.

Kayazy are a glorified version of the mafia/yakuza/street gangs,
and so they're going to look like dagger wielding ruffians of one
sort or another.

Hmmm, some decent points here, on both sides. I guess the best way to avoid friction in the community is to moderate your comments and refrain from saying anything too over the top in the name of entertaining posting. (I found Manchu's post entertaining, and I'm a PP fan).

On the topic of GW/PP love and hate, well, I dunno. It's pretty obvious to me that PP have their share of stinkers when it comes to models. They can be a pain to put together, or look really really stupid, especially some of the older models. But even newer ones look pretty bad in my eyes- such as the scythean. I like the ravagore and the carnivean, but the sythean is really dopey looking as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather a GW carnifex any day. There are dumb ass models in every PP faction and they do charge premium prices. I think it's fair that if GW is getting flak for that, then PP should too.

On the releases, Kazays look decent, Proteus is cooler in concept than execution (they shouldn't have used the carnivean chassis for that concept IMO), plastic beasts look better than expected, but I am wondering if those pictures are actually the plastics and not the metals- they look identical. Gallows tree is absolutely stupid looking. Skeletons don't look right in PP's bulky style. Way too cartoony. Urgh.

I would guess that the photos taken are of the metal proofs or whatever you wish to call them. This is based only on the fact that the Desecrator that was shown around at WMW was metal, but was said to be coming out in plastic.

Those Eliminators make the tragedy that is Anastasia di Bray all the more tragic.

Great sculpts all around, and I love the tentacle-faced Legion beastie. It will be interesting to see if those kits are actually the plastic versions. They're the identical pictures from the metal models. Still, plastic warbeasts is a Good Thing (tm).

The couple gals sculpts are very very well executed and a step forward... calling it gak is errr biased...

Marzillius wrote:PP does something, Dakkadakka goes YAAAAAY!

GW does something, Dakkadakka goes BOOOOOO!


Seriously, this GW hate is getting silly. PP is even more expensive than GW when you consider price per model, and yet you keep whining about GW prices. The irony is massive.

Manchu wrote:

Dysartes wrote:Manchu - Are you seriously trying to claim that the Eliminators, at a minimum, are not good sculpts?

I think they are objectively good when judged in genre-neutral terms (as if they were random models on Hasslefree or something). They are good pieces of work in the sense that Space Marines are not so good. But that doesn't mean much to me. Space Marines are perfect for what they do -- OTT gothic sci-fi total war. Space Marines are above such petty considerations as "scale" and "realism." These Eliminators excel in those aspects but they don't fit well into the steampunk-fantasy world they're supposed to work in. How much sense do these sculpts make next to any sculpt of Vladimir, for example? Frankly, I find them really, really boring with regard to my expectations from the WM/H genre. I like Constance Blaize a lot better, although her sculpt may not be as good in technical terms. PP see-saws back and forth on these things. You can even see that in this wave -- you've got these very staid Eliminators and then the way OTT chunky, cartoon monsters to join the rest of the chunky, cartoon monsters for Everblight. It's really all over the place.

What? You dont like either these cartoon monsters or the well sculpted ladies? Both are part of Warmachine and Hordes from the get go... I don't see why you say they don't fit its like saying spacemarinezzz don't fit 40k...

Manchu wrote: How much sense do these sculpts make next to any sculpt of Vladimir, for example?

This is a very poor example to use to justify your argument.

Vlad's choice of armor and weaponry is meant to be sort of outmoded/outdated in the setting itself. He is part of the old guard and his appearance is symbolid of this fact.

He is in effect wearing old fashioned things by Khadoran standards.

Sort of like showing up to a Wild West showdown in a suit of platemail...

Don't let that get in the way of your ranting, but maybe choose an example that makes more sense...

Marzillius wrote:PP does something, Dakkadakka goes YAAAAAY!

GW does something, Dakkadakka goes BOOOOOO!


Seriously, this GW hate is getting silly. PP is even more expensive than GW when you consider price per model, and yet you keep whining about GW prices. The irony is massive.

It depends on your perspective. Most of the PP-haters simply stay clear of the PP threads. Personally, I just don't like their World of Warcraft aesthetic and all the Warjack models that look the same. The Cthulhu-nid makes me just hear a 'pbbbpbbbpbbb' raspberry noise in my head.

On the other hand, this forum is mostly for GW fans so everyone reads the GW threads and the haters are more vocal. Plus, GW oftentimes actually makes the occasional really good sculpt and their plastics are amazing.

Manchu wrote:Okay, but you have to stop pretending that everyone who dislikes things you like are trolls.

I see you've got the 'not reading what I posted' part of the troll-mod role sorted as well.

Manchu wrote:And just like with GW, there are other posters standing by to call you a troll if you dare to post that some models look like gak to you.

Aw diddums! Try writing better criticism, like you did later in the thread. I don't agree with any of what you wrote when you clarified your position but I have no problem with it.

Absolutionis wrote: The Cthulhu-nid makes me just hear a 'pbbbpbbbpbbb' raspberry noise in my head.

Now imagine that noise coming from the belly of a 20 foot tall dragon monster and tell me it isn't unsettling to some degree.

edit: Incidentally, it is a common phenomena "in these parts" to wiggle the fingers in front of the mouthparts (like tentacles) and intone in a suitably cyclopean and menacing tone "WOULD YOU LIKE A STICKY BUN?"

I have no idea why, but i fear I started it.

Absolutionis wrote:
The Cthulhu-nid makes me just hear a 'pbbbpbbbpbbb' raspberry noise in my head.

So did you have the same thoughts about the lictors and Y genestears?

Good looking girls, but they do not fit the Khador theme, very well.

I might see them first, then decide on picking them up. Simple fact of the matter is that they won't be worth adding to an army for any price, because they will get wiped out without doing anything other then looking good...

Grot 6, they seem to fit it with the other Kayazy we're seen reasonably well.

Sure, they're not going to fit in with a wall of Men-o-War or Iron Fangs, but neither are the Kossite Woodsmen - or one of the most recognisable Khador units, the Doom Reavers.

And at 3pts for a pair of 5 damage stealthed duellists with Gang and a Combo Strike, I can seem myself running them - if nothing else, they should be fun in a Four Star MacBain list...

Dysartes wrote:
And at 3pts for a pair of 5 damage stealthed duellists with Gang and a Combo Strike, I can seem myself running them - if nothing else, they should be fun in a Four Star MacBain list...

Indeed, plus Def 17 in HTH is nothing to sneeze at. Though if you want to take the piss even further just cast Iron Flesh on them... They're definitley going to find a home in both my eVlad and Old Witch non-theme lists.

I wasn't a huge fan of the Eliminators at first, but they've grown on me...

Unfortunately, it's not in this thread, but I LOVE the new troll war wagon . Takes the cake of all the sneak peaks, and beats all prior Battle Engines for pure sexiness, imo!

CT GAMER wrote:Sort of like showing up to a Wild West showdown in a suit of platemail...

Wouldn't be a bad idea, really. I'd trust metal plates more than I would a leather duster to stop bullets.

You know that bullets contributed greatly to plate armor going out of use, right?

Yeah. Still better than nothing!

Except not really because you can't even attempt to run or dodge in plate armor.

I dunno, I was trying to be funny but now I'm just confused.