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Thanatos73 wrote:All factions in WM/H have many different looks within their factions.

We covered all that above. All these fluff arguments don't really address the point of these Eliminator models being technically well-executed but seriously bland compared to the rest of the visual world of WM/H (not just Khador). I mean, you can say "well, the fluff supports them looking boring" and maybe that's the case but who cares? They're still boring.

Manchu wrote:Factions are indeed diverse -- it keeps them interesting, of course. But they also need to have some consistency, some kind of connection that makes them work together visually. Again, the Cephalyx clearly wouldn't be paling around with Cygnarans. Anyone with eyes can tell you that, whether they know a thing about the setting or not. The Ogryn are a good example in this regard -- even though they don't look much like rank & file guardsmen, they are still obviously IG units.

So we can argue all night about whether these chicks fit in with Khador. I mean, they could fit in -- as I have hopefully demonstrated, they do so about as well as they fit in with the Protectorate. Maybe I should rephrase: you can look at it as them not being "Khador" enough but it's better to look at it as them not looking enough like anything except genre-neutral girls with knives.

As mentioned before, these models are civilians, so don't have to fit in that well with the main range (although the Morris dancing one is posed weirdly)

I know where you're coming from though. Make a cygnar army with Trenchers and Sword knights and try telling me that it's a coherent design aesthetic.

Manchu wrote:They're just really boring for assassins, especially in a world next to Iron Fangs, Men-O-War, and Gun Carriages. They're just not very steampunk/high fantasy.

God forbid that sneaky mafia assassins be less than flamboyant... personally I think it works... you don't pay attention to em, oh, two chicks with piddling knives.. and suddenly you find they're backstriking your caster...

So the models are boring so that you can bore your opponent into losing?

No, the models are not boring and again not all PP models are Overthetop so IMO they fit just fine in the range.

The vision of PP may not be for everyone, can we just agree to disagree and be done with it?

ProtoClone wrote:The vision of PP may not be for everyone, can we just agree to disagree and be done with it?

If you don't want to discuss the issue why bother posting? From the outset, I explicitly mentioned that I was expressing my opinion rather than anyone else's (which is obvious, one would think) so it's not like the point is to get everyone to agree. Thing is, just because you don't like a model doesn't mean (a) you shouldn't comment or (b) if you do comment you're either trolling or ranting. I guess we could all be "done with it" regarding any subject but then what would be the point of a discussion board?

Manchu wrote:

Thanatos73 wrote:All factions in WM/H have many different looks within their factions.

We covered all that above. All these fluff arguments don't really address the point of these Eliminator models being technically well-executed but seriously bland compared to the rest of the visual world of WM/H (not just Khador). I mean, you can say "well, the fluff supports them looking boring" and maybe that's the case but who cares? They're still boring.

I never said the fluff supports them looking boring, I just said they fit the range in looks and background and I don't think they look boring at all. I do also believe they fit the range and Khador specifically. You don't obviously, and that's fine, different opinions and all.

Thanatos73 wrote:I never said the fluff supports them looking boring, I just said they fit the range in looks and background and I don't think they look boring at all.

Okay, sorry, I'm using loaded terms from the get-go rather than explaining how I'm reaching that conclusion. It has been said of the Eliminators that they are supposed to be relatively simple looking (is that more acceptable than "boring" for this stage of the argument?) because of various fluff reasons: they are sneaky non-military gangster hitwomen. They wouldn't wear armor or anything else that would call attention to themselves. Is that the idea? Assuming it is, the models should look unassuming, right? So you tell that to a sculptor and he creates a model that doesn't stand out.

Now, I'm not saying this is what actually happened at PP headquarters. In all reality, I think what happened is that the concept artist unsuccessfully tried to split the difference between the established Kayazy "street cossak" and something more feminine, the result being that the Kayazy flavor is now missing. But I'm proposing the hypothetical as a response to all the fluff arguments I've seen ITT. In essence, folks keep telling me that these chicks are supposed to be very "under the top" (as opposed to over it) and I keep responding that, yes, fine, they're definitely bland compared to other PP models and that's my problem with them. It doesn't matter to me, for whatever background reason, whether they're not supposed to stand out or look interesting next to other PP models.

Manchu wrote:

ProtoClone wrote:The vision of PP may not be for everyone, can we just agree to disagree and be done with it?

If you don't want to discuss the issue why bother posting? From the outset, I explicitly mentioned that I was expressing my opinion rather than anyone else's (which is obvious, one would think) so it's not like the point is to get everyone to agree. Thing is, just because you don't like a model doesn't mean (a) you shouldn't comment or (b) if you do comment you're either trolling or ranting. I guess we could all be "done with it" regarding any subject but then what would be the point of a discussion board?

I don't mind the issue and don't mind people expressing opinion.

Manchu wrote:

Thanatos73 wrote:I never said the fluff supports them looking boring, I just said they fit the range in looks and background and I don't think they look boring at all.

Okay, sorry, I'm using loaded terms from the get-go rather than explaining how I'm reaching that conclusion. It has been said of the Eliminators that they are supposed to be relatively simple looking (is that more acceptable than "boring" for this stage of the argument?) because of various fluff reasons: they are sneaky non-military gangster hitwomen. They wouldn't wear armor or anything else that would call attention to themselves. Is that the idea? Assuming it is, the models should look unassuming, right? So you tell that to a sculptor and he creates a model that doesn't stand out.

Now, I'm not saying this is what actually happened at PP headquarters. In all reality, I think what happened is that the concept artist unsuccessfully tried to split the difference between the established Kayazy "street cossak" and something more feminine, the result being that the Kayazy flavor is now missing. But I'm proposing the hypothetical as a response to all the fluff arguments I've seen ITT. In essence, folks keep telling me that these chicks are supposed to be very "under the top" (as opposed to over it) and I keep responding that, yes, fine, they're definitely bland compared to other PP models and that's my problem with them. It doesn't matter to me, for whatever background reason, whether they're not supposed to stand out or look interesting next to other PP models.

I don't know how the sculpting process works at PP but I do assume they sculpt based on quite accurate concept art, so there's not much room for creative sculpting.

I believe our divergence is only when you say "they're definitely bland compared to other PP models" because there are many more PP minis similar to these gals... you may not like it but its there.
I think its a very smart move to balance different concepts in the same range.

I agree completely about having different concepts in the same faction range, which I why I wouldn't complain about Precursor Knights in the Cygnar line. But the thing about Precursor Knights is that they still look very interesting to me. They're very high fantasy, which is suitable for the setting (which is just D&D with guns and robots, after all), because the Iron Kingdoms are bigger than steampunk. The Eliminators are not particularly anything. And sure, PP does produce other bland models -- I'm not saying everything else they produce is interesting. That's a different quanta than whether the miniature is "good." For example, in this same wave, the Cthulhu-esque Proteus isn't an especially good sculpt but at least it's interesting.

Manchu wrote:

Thanatos73 wrote:I never said the fluff supports them looking boring, I just said they fit the range in looks and background and I don't think they look boring at all.

Okay, sorry, I'm using loaded terms from the get-go rather than explaining how I'm reaching that conclusion. It has been said of the Eliminators that they are supposed to be relatively simple looking (is that more acceptable than "boring" for this stage of the argument?) because of various fluff reasons: they are sneaky non-military gangster hitwomen. They wouldn't wear armor or anything else that would call attention to themselves. Is that the idea? Assuming it is, the models should look unassuming, right? So you tell that to a sculptor and he creates a model that doesn't stand out.

Now, I'm not saying this is what actually happened at PP headquarters. In all reality, I think what happened is that the concept artist unsuccessfully tried to split the difference between the established Kayazy "street cossak" and something more feminine, the result being that the Kayazy flavor is now missing. But I'm proposing the hypothetical as a response to all the fluff arguments I've seen ITT. In essence, folks keep telling me that these chicks are supposed to be very "under the top" (as opposed to over it) and I keep responding that, yes, fine, they're definitely bland compared to other PP models and that's my problem with them. It doesn't matter to me, for whatever background reason, whether they're not supposed to stand out or look interesting next to other PP models.

That's understandable. Personally, I dig the the low key look of the Eliminators, and of other understated models they make, mostly from the IK liine.

Manchu wrote:

ProtoClone wrote:The vision of PP may not be for everyone, can we just agree to disagree and be done with it?

If you don't want to discuss the issue why bother posting? From the outset, I explicitly mentioned that I was expressing my opinion rather than anyone else's (which is obvious, one would think) so it's not like the point is to get everyone to agree. Thing is, just because you don't like a model doesn't mean (a) you shouldn't comment or (b) if you do comment you're either trolling or ranting. I guess we could all be "done with it" regarding any subject but then what would be the point of a discussion board?

there does come a point when after you have stated the same thing 10 or twelve times that it is best to just agree to disagree and move on.

This thread has been going around in circles for a good while now, and I get the sneaking suspicion you arent going to budge, so yes what is the point of discussing this further?

Not to mention if you as the primary person take your side of the argument weren't a mod this would have already been closed for that very reason as history has shown...

So the thread devolved into trying to convince Manchu how to like PP models when he just won't? Let me know how that turns out.

CT GAMER wrote:there does come a point when after you have stated the same thing 10 or twelve times that it is best to just agree to disagree and move on.

This thread has been going around in circles for a good while now, and I get the sneaking suspicion you aren’t going to budge, so yes what is the point of discussing this further?

Not to mention if you as the primary person take your side of the argument weren't a mod this would have already been closed for that very reason as history has shown.

+1 to this.

Manchu wrote:

derek wrote:

Manchu wrote: Aside from being painted red and black, they're extremely generic.

They look like Kayazy to me. Which is of course what they're supposed to look like.

Sure they do, as they're painted red and black in that pic.

So in other words obvious Troll is obvious. Gotcha. Cause being dressed in the same manner as previous Kayazy has nothing to do with their look, it's all just a paint scheme.

CT GAMER wrote:I get the sneaking suspicion you arent going to budge, so yes what is the point of discussing this further?

The value of a discussion isn't getting everyone else to agree with you. I'm not trying to convince you not to like something you do or trying to make you feel stupid for liking it (I even explained why I think the models are good, in a sense). I'm just trying to explain why I have the "sheer audacity" not to like it -- and, no, it's not because I'm trolling everyone who does. Rather than addressing me with personal attacks and alleging that the thread is pointless, you could just address the actual points -- you know, participating in a discussion. And, if you no longer want to participate in the discussion, there's really no need to chime back in about how "there's no point" to the thread going forward considering that is just spam.

Kurgash wrote:So the thread devolved into trying to convince Manchu how to like PP models when he just won't?

Actually, as I have mentioned several times, there are plenty of PP models that I like. But if someone dares to say they don't like a model they must OBVIOUSLY (see below) be some kind of troll or, at the very best, be a "hater." In other words, I don't like them for what I think are good reasons rather than I "just won't" like them.

derek wrote:So in other words obvious Troll is obvious. Gotcha. Cause being dressed in the same manner as previous Kayazy has nothing to do with their look, it's all just a paint scheme.

Wow, please read the thread. I already have gone into detail as to how they are not, in fact, dressed like previous Kayazy AND why, if they were painted differently, they could have easily been sold as belonging to another faction. Calling someone a troll, especially when you haven't bothered to address their points, is just a personal attack.

Why is everyone trying to convince someone that they're wrong for not liking something? Opinions! Subjective! Visual appeal is not something that can be argued!

I think Manchu's got a good point. I really like the miniatures myself, but I don't think that they're particularly in keeping with the overall look of the Khador army. But I don't play Khador, so lucky me.

Manchu wrote:I agree completely about having different concepts in the same faction range, which I why I wouldn't complain about Precursor Knights in the Cygnar line. But the thing about Precursor Knights is that they still look very interesting to me. They're very high fantasy, which is suitable for the setting (which is just D&D with guns and robots, after all), because the Iron Kingdoms are bigger than steampunk. The Eliminators are not particularly anything. And sure, PP does produce other bland models -- I'm not saying everything else they produce is interesting. That's a different quanta than whether the miniature is "good." For example, in this same wave, the Cthulhu-esque Proteus isn't an especially good sculpt but at least it's interesting.

Speaking of my personal experience, if they only explored the jacks concepts I would not be a PP collector anymore... collected Khador and donated all of them because I could not stand for more machines with different arms, all to samey and that, yes to me, its boring... So when Hordes introduced some of the coolest factions for any wargame ( troolbloods) I was really back on board.
I can even tell you that even if I don't find some of the concepts for other factions interesting for me personally I cannot deny that they are pushing things forward concept wise. Back to these gals, I don't find them bland and they should be really fun to paint up... thats good enough for me.

As for this debate, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything just having a chat with users that disagree on some points and agree on others... and thats the point of a forum.

Sorry, my post was not targetting at you Navarro. I always find your posts to be well written and worth reading.

I absolutely agree with you on the concepts thing. As a whole, they've produced a very tangible and unique theme, something that many wargames companies fall short of in my opinion. However, I don't think that every miniature is a success. Whilst I like the Eliminators models, they don't have that Khador feel for me, if you see what I mean.

One thing that has always drawn me to PP is the big model v. small model dynamic of the game. Whether we're talking beasts or 'jacks, I like the tactical potential of this principle -- and it doesn't really exist in GW's games, either, so no one can claim that PP didn't offer something new to the market. Model-wise, this also makes collecting the lines fun because a force looks good with some uniformity (a gaggle of trenchers, for example) broken up by something big and impressive (like Ole Rowdy). The key, IMO, to making this dynamic work aesthetically is consistency. I can't have a big cartoonish 'jack and a bunch of incredibly realistic support soldiers. So you can see that the Trenchers are not realistic. They're WWI doughboys cosplaying renaissance men-at-war. It works great next to a 'jack. Also, you can't go too generic. A lot of what holds the aesthetic together, the "brand image" you might say, is how everything is high rather than low fantasy. Those trenchers may be inspired by WWI troops but they are clearly Cygnaran. Trenchers are a great example of how you can have something slightly off-faction (in this case, there's no lightning bits) and still maintain faction coherency.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This wave of releases, IMO, shows how PP can slip up in both respects. The new Legion monsters are just more of the same for all intents and purposes. You could imagine one body kit with slightly different heads and arms -- a la GW's Carnifex, which makes the Tyranid comparison even more valid. By contrast, the Eliminators certainly aren't mere copies of what's come before in the Khador line. To the contrary, they're so generic they could fit in elsewhere.

Manchu wrote:The new Legion monsters are just more of the same for all intents and purposes. You could imagine one body kit with slightly different heads and arms -- a la GW's Carnifex, which makes the Tyranid comparison even more valid.

Just to raise a point here, Manchu, but with the exception of Proteus (a character upgrade kit), the Legion beasts previewed are the PP plastic versions of existing heavy warbeasts. AS far as I'm aware, they'll be packaged like the existing Heavy Warjack kits, which is why they look like the same body with the different arms and heads. Proteus builds off the same kit, but with a metal tentacle face (and possible some other bits).

I find it disappointing that the everblight "carnivean chassis" beasts are so similar, given Everblight has the potential to have the most diverse warbeasts since he designs them himself and they don't have to make "sense".

Hey, when you find a base chassis that is brutally effective (Carnivean), varying too far off it is inefficient...

Dysartes wrote:Just to raise a point here, Manchu, but with the exception of Proteus (a character upgrade kit), the Legion beasts previewed are the PP plastic versions of existing heavy warbeasts.

Yeah, I'm aware -- but could you still not have head/arm swaps in one box? Legion is probably my current favorite faction (I especially love the Teraph) and agree with DaBoss that their beasts are best when they have a bit more variation.

Manchu wrote:Yeah, I'm aware -- but could you still not have head/arm swaps in one box?

There are. The Plastic beast can be assembled as one of the 3 or magnetized to swap. It's not 3 kits.

Platuan4th wrote:

Manchu wrote:Yeah, I'm aware -- but could you still not have head/arm swaps in one box?

There are. The Plastic beast can be assembled as one of the 3 or magnetized to swap. It's not 3 kits.

In for more plastic warbeast kits!

Dysartes wrote:Hey, when you find a base chassis that is brutally effective (Carnivean), varying too far off it is inefficient...

Amazing sorcerous power... Terrible imagination?

whitedragon wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Manchu wrote:Yeah, I'm aware -- but could you still not have head/arm swaps in one box?

There are. The Plastic beast can be assembled as one of the 3 or magnetized to swap. It's not 3 kits.

In for more plastic warbeast kits!

Huzzah!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Balance wrote:Amazing sorcerous power... Terrible imagination?

TBF, there are a fair few "shapes" (I'd say four: bipedal, winged, multi-headed, and quadraped) considering the overall number of big models (twelve). I think the real trouble is that most of the models (seven of them) fall into the bipedal category.