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Eldenfirefly wrote:Sigh, I don't know if its just my local scene. But everyone there is shooty crazy. Its like 6 dreadnaughts with all twin linked autocannons, or space wolf missile launcher spam, or IG with all their shooty vehicles and air force.

So, what are the tactics for this list against extreme shooty armies? Some shooting I am confident this list can handle. But like some of the examples I listed above ...

We do kinda lack the GK str 8 autocannon spam. However we do have Longfang spam, and a fair amount of Mech Guard. Honestly you need a hard list to counter, and the ability to roll good dice. Mix that with a decent strategy and a couple fallbacks, and you might do alright.

You need to properly utilize LOS and get some help with cover saves to even have a chance.

Kinda funny cause many used to be jealous of the csm oblits,

Like I've stated time and time again, we can't outshoot the shooty armies.

LOS blocking terrain is HUGE, just as JD said. Try to use large pieces of terrain to your advantage and limit your opponents lanes of fire. Advance in his blind spots, and try not to use smoke launchers unless you have to. Using Plague Marine rhinos to grant your Berzerker rhinos and Daemon Princes a cover save (or to block LOS completely) is another good tactic.

I tried advancing through blind spots before. But this is not so good for this army list. The issue is that your army then gets split up quite a bit, with some units taking longer to reach them.

And even if you keep some units out of LOS, you can't keep all. FOr a super shooty army. This makes it worse because they then just fire focus on the units which they CAN see, and try and totally wipe those out, before moving on to the units which are out of LOS.

And if you want to get into combat, or that 12 inch range, you eventually still have to get into LOS as well, because if you can see him, he can obviously see you.

But if you "trade" units, after he has already shot up and eliminated a few of your units earlier (those not completely out of LOS), then you are still going to fall behind and lose in the end.

I rather charge the entire mass army all charge straight in, even through terrain risking the difficult terrain roll, pop smoke if I have to. Then turn 2, the entire army hits him all at the same time. Then because of target satuation, there's no way he can kill off that many units within one turn.

The issue of course is that even with such a tactic, that 1 or 2 rounds of shooting from these shooty armies is going to really hurt. Its not that we do't have shooting, but ours don't start to really happen until turn 2 or 3. The extreme shooty armies can fire on all guns or missile launchers from the very first turn. And I am talking about over possibly over 20 strength 8 shots from such armies in one turn!

The board also can really mess up an army!

Eldenfirefly wrote:Sigh, I don't know if its just my local scene. But everyone there is shooty crazy. Its like 6 dreadnaughts with all twin linked autocannons, or space wolf missile launcher spam, or IG with all their shooty vehicles and air force.

So, what are the tactics for this list against extreme shooty armies? Some shooting I am confident this list can handle. But like some of the examples I listed above ...

Have him set up first and just go after half of his army and roll up on them.

Got 2 games in today.

First was against Grey Knights. MSU style with five 5-man strike squads with Daemonhammer and Psycannon in Psybacks, another identical squad in a Landraider Godhammer with Psybolt ammo, a brotherhood champion and 2 psyflenoughts. Game type was dawn of war with 2 objectives. He attempted to play a very shooty game against me (as GK usually should) which played perfectly into my armies advantages (t5-6, FNP). By picking my assaults carefully, and minimizing his long range firepower from turn 1, I was able to almost table him, even though I suffered some significant casualties.

Result- Win for Chaos, 2 objectives to none.

Game 2 was a rematch with JD's Orks (found on page 1). Same list, 2 5-man squads of lootas, 2 battlewagons full of boyz, 1 battlewagon full of nobz, 2 trucks (various shoota/slugga boyz), a grot squad and a deffkopta with twin linked rokkits and buzz saw. Dawn of war (again... sigh), 3 objectives. This game went for 6 turns, and was down to the wire. Both of our dice were kind of tempermental at times, but all things concerned were pretty average. This game was CLOSE, and one of the biggest slugfests I've ever played. Truly a great game, with a battle report coming up soon.

Result- Win for Chaos, 2 objectives to 1!

I am a long time CSM player and can also attest to this list as well as the idea of running a Defiler with 2 nurgle princes...they stop seeing the defiler as a defiler and see it as just another big monster....and flying DP's usually scare people more,,,hence the defiler lives. However I do want to disagree on one thing...the basic CSM is much better than a Space Marine...the basic CSM is completly tooled out with choice of mid range firepower or assault load out on the fly....as well as every grenade you need in the basic cost..I find them a very durable unit for their cost.

th3maninblak wrote:Got 2 games in today.

First was against Grey Knights. MSU style with five 5-man strike squads with Daemonhammer and Psycannon in Psybacks, another identical squad in a Landraider Godhammer with Psybolt ammo, a brotherhood champion and 2 psyflenoughts. Game type was dawn of war with 2 objectives. He attempted to play a very shooty game against me (as GK usually should) which played perfectly into my armies advantages (t5-6, FNP). By picking my assaults carefully, and minimizing his long range firepower from turn 1, I was able to almost table him, even though I suffered some significant casualties.

Result- Win for Chaos, 2 objectives to none.

Game 2 was a rematch with JD's Orks (found on page 1). Same list, 2 5-man squads of lootas, 2 battlewagons full of boyz, 1 battlewagon full of nobz, 2 trucks (various shoota/slugga boyz), a grot squad and a deffkopta with twin linked rokkits and buzz saw. Dawn of war (again... sigh), 3 objectives. This game went for 6 turns, and was down to the wire. Both of our dice were kind of tempermental at times, but all things concerned were pretty average. This game was CLOSE, and one of the biggest slugfests I've ever played. Truly a great game, with a battle report coming up soon.

Result- Win for Chaos, 2 objectives to 1!

Awesome! I look forward eagerly to the battle reports. I don't mind reading the Grey Knights one too. I like to read how you deal with the shooty armies because that's the biggest problems I have, and the gamers at my local store all play very shooty armies.

th3maninblak wrote:Got 2 games in today.

First was against Grey Knights. MSU style with five 5-man strike squads with Daemonhammer and Psycannon in Psybacks, another identical squad in a Landraider Godhammer with Psybolt ammo, a brotherhood champion and 2 psyflenoughts. Game type was dawn of war with 2 objectives. He attempted to play a very shooty game against me (as GK usually should) which played perfectly into my armies advantages (t5-6, FNP). By picking my assaults carefully, and minimizing his long range firepower from turn 1, I was able to almost table him, even though I suffered some significant casualties.

Result- Win for Chaos, 2 objectives to none.

Game 2 was a rematch with JD's Orks (found on page 1). Same list, 2 5-man squads of lootas, 2 battlewagons full of boyz, 1 battlewagon full of nobz, 2 trucks (various shoota/slugga boyz), a grot squad and a deffkopta with twin linked rokkits and buzz saw. Dawn of war (again... sigh), 3 objectives. This game went for 6 turns, and was down to the wire. Both of our dice were kind of tempermental at times, but all things concerned were pretty average. This game was CLOSE, and one of the biggest slugfests I've ever played. Truly a great game, with a battle report coming up soon.

Result- Win for Chaos, 2 objectives to 1!

Was a really fun game, love the attention it attracted. Looking forward to a rematch later when I get the tactics a little better.

quickfuze wrote:I am a long time CSM player and can also attest to this list as well as the idea of running a Defiler with 2 nurgle princes...they stop seeing the defiler as a defiler and see it as just another big monster....and flying DP's usually scare people more,,,hence the defiler lives. However I do want to disagree on one thing...the basic CSM is much better than a Space Marine...the basic CSM is completly tooled out with choice of mid range firepower or assault load out on the fly....as well as every grenade you need in the basic cost..I find them a very durable unit for their cost.

This is one of the things I'm extensively writing about in my tactica. The comparison between Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines is a good bit deeper than just standard wargear. Though CSMs are better for a Multiple Small Units style strategy, since they can take a special weapon in a 5 man squad, all of their special and heavy weapons come at a higher price. Furthermore, our squads don't come standard with a sergeant/champion included in the cost, making the over all 10 man unit of CSM with special and heavy weapons 15-20 points more expensive than the loyalist counterpart. Furthermore, without the champion+IoCG upgrades, we don't have the luxury of such a powerful morale altering ability as And They Shall Know No Fear. Even with Ld10 and rerolls, we are only slightly ahead in that department.

This isn't to say that CSMs don't have their advantages. Being able to field a small unit with some combat presence and a special weapon is pretty big in today's meta, and the fact that we can take a 10 man squad with 2 special weapons is not to be scoffed at. Lastly, BP+CCW makes Chaos Marines great at torrenting in close combat.

Playing against Grey Knights actually isn't as hard as it seems. Yes, they are a very shooty army, but unlike Melta or Plasma Vets in IG, their shooting doesn't deny my armor saves. Hug cover in case of rends from Psycannons, but for the most part let your T5 and FNP endure. Pick your assaults carefully: a successful charge from Daemon Princes or Berzerkers on small or weakened squads will turn the tides.

Edit: Definitely a good game, Bex! I should also mention that I lost both Princes, my defiler, Berzkerkers, a squad of Plague Marines and most of my rhinos during the course of the game. It was a win, but a hard fought one!

@the OP

Would you mind elaborating on your thoughts of small plague units vs. small noise marine units (both decked out for 12" shooty damage).

Haeslich wrote:@the OP

Would you mind elaborating on your thoughts of small plague units vs. small noise marine units (both decked out for 12" shooty damage).

-5x Plague Marines (170 points)
2x Melta Gun
Rhino

-5x Noise Marines (195 points)
4x Sonic Blaster
Blastmaster

The Noise Marine squad brings something to the table that Chaos Lacks, which is long range firepower, but a BS 4 small blast isn't terribly accurate or reliable for damaging vehicles. Plus, almost 200 points for a single small blast crack missile doesn't seem terribly efficient. However, being able to fire lots of shots on the move is pretty damn good.

All things considered though, you cant beat the efficiency of the PM squad. 5 fearless dudes with 2 melta guns in a transport is hard to beat. Maybe 4 PM Squads to 2 Noise Marine squads in a list wouldnt be too bad of an idea...

Congrats on your wins, looks like Saturday man be a very successful day for you!

th3maninblak wrote:

quickfuze wrote:I am a long time CSM player and can also attest to this list as well as the idea of running a Defiler with 2 nurgle princes...they stop seeing the defiler as a defiler and see it as just another big monster....and flying DP's usually scare people more,,,hence the defiler lives. However I do want to disagree on one thing...the basic CSM is much better than a Space Marine...the basic CSM is completly tooled out with choice of mid range firepower or assault load out on the fly....as well as every grenade you need in the basic cost..I find them a very durable unit for their cost.

This is one of the things I'm extensively writing about in my tactica. The comparison between Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines is a good bit deeper than just standard wargear. Though CSMs are better for a Multiple Small Units style strategy, since they can take a special weapon in a 5 man squad, all of their special and heavy weapons come at a higher price. Furthermore, our squads don't come standard with a sergeant/champion included in the cost, making the over all 10 man unit of CSM with special and heavy weapons 15-20 points more expensive than the loyalist counterpart. Furthermore, without the champion+IoCG upgrades, we don't have the luxury of such a powerful morale altering ability as And They Shall Know No Fear. Even with Ld10 and rerolls, we are only slightly ahead in that department.

This isn't to say that CSMs don't have their advantages. Being able to field a small unit with some combat presence and a special weapon is pretty big in today's meta, and the fact that we can take a 10 man squad with 2 special weapons is not to be scoffed at. Lastly, BP+CCW makes Chaos Marines great at torrenting in close combat.

I am trying one list which has one squad of 10 man CSMs with 2 meltas and an icon of chaos glory, in the Rhino of course. That's 215 points only, but with a lot more choppy power and shooty power than the typical 5 man plague marine squad. I find that its the champion with power fist that makes CSM sqads expensive. But honestly, if we are comfortable with a basic 5 man plague marine squads, then we should be fine with a 10 man CSM squad also with no champion. The icon of chaos glory effectively makes them quite close to fearless and is cheap for just 10 points. Mathematically, a reroll on a leadership 9 is better than a single roll on leadership 10.

A 10 man basic CSM squad without a champion stilll means 30 stregnth 4 attacks on the charge. That is not something to be sneezed at. Yes, it might have problems with special charecters, but the plague marine squad would face the same problems too. At just 45 points more in total for substantially more choppy and shooty power, its an option to consider. Just my 2 cents of course.

Four ten man squads of CSM, the way you kit them out (which is probably the best way, possibly with a Champ) will run 860 points. Four PM squads will run 680 points. That's a pretty substantial difference.

However, I will say that CSM definitely have their uses. I debate the merits of small PM squads vs big beefy CSM units with a fellow dakka-ite regularly, and he has some good points.

Four might be overkill. But one might give a lot of flexibility and add overall choppy and shooty. My list still has 3 squads of plague marines with the 2 special weapons and nothing else. But it has a khone berserkers, like yours, and then, I replace the 4th plague marine squad with a 10 man CSM squad. That's a 45 points difference, which I can live with.

Eldenfirefly wrote:Four might be overkill. But one might give a lot of flexibility and add overall choppy and shooty. My list still has 3 squads of plague marines with the 2 special weapons and nothing else. But it has a khone berserkers, like yours, and then, I replace the 4th plague marine squad with a 10 man CSM squad. That's a 45 points difference, which I can live with.

I like this idea a lot.

Its definitely worth tesing. Another way I have seen them run is as a backfield objective holder. Keep them as cheap as possible and give them a long range gun.

-10x chaos space marines (215 points)
autocannon
IoCG
rhino

That's too expensive, and it doesn't fit the theme and play style of your army. Your army list likes to get in close and personal. That magical 12 inch range as you quoted. Once we do this, we are turning the playstyle into one that emphasizes a more long distance approach.

And that's a heck of a lot of points to pay for just one autocannon. I tried this before, even without the Rhino. Because there is always one objective I can place in my home field and this squad would start the game permanently camped there, and firing that long range weapon throughout the whole game.

In the end, CSM just doesn't do long range as efficiently as some of the other armies out there.

I agree with Elden

I was just discussing other uses and merits for standard Chaos Space Marines.

I think I've tested the list enough, or at least I hope I have. Just a couple days till the tournament!

I used your list last night (but swapping Plasma Plagues for 5 Chosen with Meltas) (Hope you don't mind) in two games.

Firstly I played Daemons, was a bit of a mixed army with Kugath, Blue Scribes, Tzeentch Chariot, 8 Horrors (without Bolt), 13ish horrors, 12/3 Demonettes, 12/13 Seekers, 6 Fiends and a Tzeentch Daemon Prince. Was one objective each, spearhead. The terrain and his deepstriking (as well as everything coming on turn two) mean't I had limited space to move around in, and while nothing much died in the first 3 turns I didn't seem to do much in return. Was a pretty even game, and I made a few mistakes with it. Ended up with a draw, 1-1.

Second game I played a Vulkan list, with two Land Raiders. Turn five, I was winning 3-0 on objectives, he then had a great turn 6 and 7 and killed all but one of my troop squads so ended 1-0 to me. He got very lucky with Vulkan and two Terminators to be honest, made loads of inv saves on Vulkan especially.

Its a nice list, I might use it a bit more but hopefully for Christmas I will be getting some new stuff to play my Red Corsairs list.

Just to add a little more detail:

Deamon Princes did a great job, against the Deamons it was a killing then distracting job, killed Kugath and got in the Seekers way, which then allowed me to charge them and wipe them out with the Zerkers. Second game it was a similar situation, although a bit less killing, mainly taking out Razorbacks and a couple of terminators. But they have killing power, and are a great distraction and pretty durable.

Defiler did a great job, not at killing anything. But the distraction that provides gives the Deamon Princes and Rhinos a little more time to do things.

Chosen worked well, especially against Marines. They killed a Land Raider that was on one half of the table with just one of 4 objectives, if I didn't have outflanking Chosen I would have just ignored it, but they blew it up, then died to 10 man tactical squad. But then the Rhino tank shocked them and they ran off the board . But an extra squad of plagues would be nice, will have to try it both ways and decide which works best.

I have seen the Plague Marines run in great quantity and they always seem to cause all kinds of turmoil all over the board!

Well, the tournament is in about 10 hours.

Wish me luck everyone! Thank you all for your ideas and support!

Death to the false Emperor!

I love this list and pretty much run a similar one atm. But at my LGS we normally play 2000 points and i was wondering how you would fill this list to 2000 points.

I figured the more the better and threw in another plague marine squad of 5 with 2x melta and ofc rhino and upgraded a few rhinos with havoc launchers.

Or would you go for more ranged fire power and throw in two more obliterators and extra armour the rhinos with last points?

Another melta plague marine squad is a perfect way bring this up to 2,000 points, and Combi-weapons/Havoc Launchers are perfect for filling in the spare points. You have all the right ideas! :-)

Came in 2nd out of about a dozen people, so not bad! Faced Space Wolves, Chaos Daemons, and Space Marines. Full battle report on the Chaos Daemons Match coming soon (great fricken game, btw, complete slug fest), with descriptions of the other two matchups as well.

Missed 1st place by less than 200 victory points, because me and the winner were tied on battle points. Btw, Daemons won it. Epic day.

That is a great result well done

Excellent! I await the battle report and your tactics article too!