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Ok, time for my 2 cents,

Honestly i dont think abaddon is as bad as people make out, well hes obiously insane and a genius as well as a heretical madman, but hes also a tactical genius, yes people moan about him taking 13 attempts collecting what he needs, but as far as he cares he has all the time in the universe since marines are invunrable to time, especially those that had the 4 gods of chaos on there side, as for all the lore ive read the forces of chaos and the imperium are at a stalemate on cadia, the ships in orbit have lost most of there fleet and are runnin low on munitions, and as for the planet its self, neither side can afford to destroy the cadia because of the simple fact of the pylons... which create the stable point in the eye, chaos because its there only (relative) safe route through, and the imperium because if they destroy cadia they loose there only major presence in that subsector and even the imperium cant afford to loose such a major force in one go dispite the population count of the imperium.

no matter what though Abaddon will never actually hurt the Imperium because it is to large

DarkAngelz wrote:no matter what though Abaddon will never actually hurt the Imperium because it is to large

Well, he currently does. The Imperium might be large but it is also enganged on all sides by the forces of chaos, by internal rebellions and the many various xeno empires within the galaxy.
Each Black Crusade draws precious ressources which could be utilised on other fronts, bringing the already fissured Imperium ever closer to it's final demise.

KingDeath wrote:

DarkAngelz wrote:no matter what though Abaddon will never actually hurt the Imperium because it is to large

Well, he currently does. The Imperium might be large but it is also enganged on all sides by the forces of chaos, by internal rebellions and the many various xeno empires within the galaxy.
Each Black Crusade draws precious ressources which could be utilised on other fronts, bringing the already fissured Imperium ever closer to it's final demise.

The IoM will never have a final demise. Everyone has the same threat of anniahlation except for maybe chaos, tyranids, and orks.

For actual information from GW about what actually happened in the 13th Black Crusade, see:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page

The WD results are posted verbatim. It is hard to have a discussion about a topic when there is so much apparent misinformation or misremembered information floating around.

Furthermore, if one refers to GW's Apocalypse rulebook, one can see that Abaddon once more has a functional Planet Killer and is out of the Cadian Gate, and is in the Thesus Sector.

Before anyone raises the point about the battle report not being canon, the battle report about the Battle for Cold Steel Ridge is also in that book and has been incorporated into the canon in both the latest SM and Tyranid Codex, thus there is precedent for the events described by these reports being made canon.

That is impressive, it would seem that Cadia is surrounded by a sea of chaos. And is well on it's way to falling.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:That is impressive, it would seem that Cadia is surrounded by a sea of chaos. And is well on it's way to falling.

I doubt Cadia will fall, it would be too hard for GW to market the Cadian IG.
Remember, they make their money off of models, book/fluff sales are less significant.
just because something makes sense in the 40k universe doesn't mean it will happen, GW will probably pick profit over quality story-telling on this one...

Well going off only fluff..... it will fall. I like to go with fluff more than business. It is much less boring.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Well going off only fluff..... it will fall. I like to go with fluff more than business. It is much less boring.

very true

I'm sure that if the Imperium tried to invade the Eye of Terror they wouldn't be able to tackle it on their first shot, just something to think about.

Nah, the Imperium isn't going to invade the Eye ot Terror.

They are just waiting for Creed to finish his plan to trick Ghazskull into looting the Eye of Terror for his Waaagh. With the Eye looted, Abbadabbadoosh won't have anywhere to launch his crusades from and he will be forced to relocate to China so he can use cheap labor to offset the costs of relocation.

KingDeath wrote:Destroying Cadia would also ( possibly ) destroy the largest stable route out of the Eye of Terror. While the Despoiler is most certainly insane he is not stupid.

Well, it'd just be empty space with a star. You can still go through it just no resupply depot on the way or defensible hard point. A situation much more in Abaddon's favor than in the Imperial's.

BrainDeleted wrote:

KingDeath wrote:Destroying Cadia would also ( possibly ) destroy the largest stable route out of the Eye of Terror. While the Despoiler is most certainly insane he is not stupid.

Well, it'd just be empty space with a star. You can still go through it just no resupply depot on the way or defensible hard point. A situation much more in Abaddon's favor than in the Imperial's.

Definitely his best bet. The only reason Cadiz is a problem is because it cuts off supplies from the eye. If be were to just blow the crap out of it. He guarantees that the IoM will never hold it again. Which would be perfect for him.

Pretty silly

At least he HAS led 13 black crusades already. Its a lot more than what the other daemon primarchs have done. All the rest of the daemon primarchs are content just warring amongst themselves within the eye of terror. And for all we know, he could be actually doing pretty well at Cadia. Its just that we are currently "frozen" in time until GW agrees to move the timeline forward again.

If he has failed that badly, by right, he should have been reduced to a mewling chaos spawn by now. Fact that he hasn't, and actually has a mark of chaos ascendent which combines all 4 marks of chaos shows that he has to be doing lots of things right by the chaos gods. Also, to be able to lead the other chaos factions, all the cult troops, and such, you have to be truely powerful. If he was such a wimp, he should have been replaced or killed by some other aspiring chaos champion by now already.

Do the chaos gods actually want him to just stomp the imperium into the ground? Its possible they thrive on continued chaos, so they actually enjoy all the to and fro and constant wars with the imperium. They don't want imperium to win decisively, which was why they all ganged up together on the emperor (the one person who was capable of enabling the imperium to win). But they may not necessarily want the imperium to be utterly destroyed either (regardless of what the rest of their underlyings want).

I mean, Nurgle is about creation and plague. Kind of hard to do if everyone is dead. And if Khorne loves eternal battle and more skulls. Khorne doesn't care for victory actually. Slanaash needs people to adore him, to have lots of vile excess and extreme emotion. You need an imperium to corrupt. And Tzeentch is never about total domination. Tzeentch thrives on many layered plots and subplots.

So, the chaos gods may seem to be on Abaddon's side, but they may not really "want" him to totally win either. He's great in their book because he's strong enough not to die to rivals and charismatic enough to get all the chaos space marines to launch big nasty black crusades out of the eye of terror and during these crusades, there are lots of death, decay, plague, corruption and mass destruction!That's probably good enough for the chaos gods already! lol.

Or the simple answer, GS needed someone totally badass which can have all cult troops in his armies, so that people can combine different cult troops together in an army fluff wise, and so they made Abaddon. lol

It's likely that the gods don't want the Imperium gone, but Abaddon also doesn't give a gak what the gods want. He's all about revenge. And from one of the few Chaos inputs on the events, Abaddon has refused daemonhood twelve times, each time after a black crusade.

DarkAngelz wrote:no matter what though Abaddon will never actually hurt the Imperium because it is to large

That means Horus couldn't possibly have shattered the Imperium either. Congratulations, you've proved the Heresy never happened.

With the Imperium gone, the Chaos Gods would be able to secure the fall of humanity because there would be no order uniting the species (this would also happen if the Emperor died and the astronomicon went out). The pomises of the Chaos gods would be a releif from the anarchy of the post-imperium universe. It's most likely that the Gods want the Imperium gone... badly.

A for effort.

Squidmanlolz wrote:With the Imperium gone, the Chaos Gods would be able to secure the fall of humanity because there would be no order uniting the species (this would also happen if the Emperor died and the astronomicon went out). The pomises of the Chaos gods would be a releif from the anarchy of the post-imperium universe. It's most likely that the Gods want the Imperium gone... badly.

Cept it was a rumor that the gods and sage/emprah and the ruinous powers were connected for awhile so the theory ws if the emprah died so would the tzeentch, khorne and nurgle. Can't speculate on Slaanesh since it's the eldars fault there. My personal opinion I dont think the ruinous powers really care as long as people continue to die in their name. In more then a few sources Khorne laughed at his own followers destroying themselves ie Daakari(spelling could be off).

No for all the chaos gods to die we would have to be extinct as they live off of our emotions. I remember reading somewhere that the big E is using the multitude of wars to fuel him so when he starts pushing up the daisies, he can able up to the gods and say "haha, No" and smite em good

The Crusader wrote:No for all the chaos gods to die we would have to be extinct as they live off of our emotions. I remember reading somewhere that the big E is using the multitude of wars to fuel him so when he starts pushing up the daisies, he can able up to the gods and say "haha, No" and smite em good

That's a pretty stupid idea if true. Every war fuels the gods as well, and the last god to emerge from a race devoured the entire races' souls, and that was still only enough power to get into the four.

Yeah it is but it is a theory none the less

Durza wrote:

The Crusader wrote:No for all the chaos gods to die we would have to be extinct as they live off of our emotions. I remember reading somewhere that the big E is using the multitude of wars to fuel him so when he starts pushing up the daisies, he can able up to the gods and say "haha, No" and smite em good

That's a pretty stupid idea if true. Every war fuels the gods as well, and the last god to emerge from a race devoured the entire races' souls, and that was still only enough power to get into the four.

Except its an official theory called the "Star Child"


The Emperor eventually builds enough power to become a chaos power and is able to stomp the chaos gods out of existance and ensure the continued existance of humanity. after his physical body dies of course.


The Emperor scares the out of the Chaos Gods. There is a reason they call him the Anathema. He is able to openly oppose them from the physical universe, the last thing they want is him to enter the warp.

Grey Templar wrote:

Durza wrote:

The Crusader wrote:No for all the chaos gods to die we would have to be extinct as they live off of our emotions. I remember reading somewhere that the big E is using the multitude of wars to fuel him so when he starts pushing up the daisies, he can able up to the gods and say "haha, No" and smite em good

That's a pretty stupid idea if true. Every war fuels the gods as well, and the last god to emerge from a race devoured the entire races' souls, and that was still only enough power to get into the four.

Except its an official theory called the "Star Child"

And every member of the cult following that theory was murdered by the Inquisition.

The Emperor eventually builds enough power to become a chaos power and is able to stomp the chaos gods out of existance and ensure the continued existance of humanity. after his physical body dies of course.

Except that's not going to happen. Slaanesh ate the entire Eldar empire after being fed by them for millenia. And they're far more psychically powerful than humans. The only way the Emperor would get enough power to defeat one, let alone all of them, would be to devour the human race, kind of defeating the purpose.

The Emperor scares the out of the Chaos Gods. There is a reason they call him the Anathema. He is able to openly oppose them from the physical universe, the last thing they want is him to enter the warp.

They called him the Anatheme because he tasted bad and was trying to stamp out religion. And the Chaos gods are able to openly oppose him from the psychic universe, so I don't really se your point there. The gods never manifest physically.

Emprah is still kinda kicking inside each and every gk.

In all fairness though the Big E has been fueled by billions of humans a day for the last 10,000 years


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ish

Durza wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Durza wrote:

The Crusader wrote:No for all the chaos gods to die we would have to be extinct as they live off of our emotions. I remember reading somewhere that the big E is using the multitude of wars to fuel him so when he starts pushing up the daisies, he can able up to the gods and say "haha, No" and smite em good

That's a pretty stupid idea if true. Every war fuels the gods as well, and the last god to emerge from a race devoured the entire races' souls, and that was still only enough power to get into the four.

Except its an official theory called the "Star Child"

And every member of the cult following that theory was murdered by the Inquisition.

Yes, but the Sensei still remain to be found, IIRC. They can always gather new supporters like they have done for ten millenia and being the sons of the Emperor, they cannot "die".

The Emperor eventually builds enough power to become a chaos power and is able to stomp the chaos gods out of existance and ensure the continued existance of humanity. after his physical body dies of course.

Except that's not going to happen. Slaanesh ate the entire Eldar empire after being fed by them for millenia. And they're far more psychically powerful than humans. The only way the Emperor would get enough power to defeat one, let alone all of them, would be to devour the human race, kind of defeating the purpose.

But still, the human race was able to create three of the most powerful gods, and they are more numerous than Eldar ever were. Who says they need to be incredibly powerful? Their collective power should be enough.

The Emperor scares the out of the Chaos Gods. There is a reason they call him the Anathema. He is able to openly oppose them from the physical universe, the last thing they want is him to enter the warp.

They called him the Anatheme because he tasted bad and was trying to stamp out religion. And the Chaos gods are able to openly oppose him from the psychic universe, so I don't really se your point there. The gods never manifest physically.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:

Durza wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Durza wrote:

The Crusader wrote:No for all the chaos gods to die we would have to be extinct as they live off of our emotions. I remember reading somewhere that the big E is using the multitude of wars to fuel him so when he starts pushing up the daisies, he can able up to the gods and say "haha, No" and smite em good

That's a pretty stupid idea if true. Every war fuels the gods as well, and the last god to emerge from a race devoured the entire races' souls, and that was still only enough power to get into the four.

Except its an official theory called the "Star Child"

And every member of the cult following that theory was murdered by the Inquisition.

Yes, but the Sensei still remain to be found, IIRC. They can always gather new supporters like they have done for ten millenia and being the sons of the Emperor, they cannot "die".

The Emperor eventually builds enough power to become a chaos power and is able to stomp the chaos gods out of existance and ensure the continued existance of humanity. after his physical body dies of course.

Except that's not going to happen. Slaanesh ate the entire Eldar empire after being fed by them for millenia. And they're far more psychically powerful than humans. The only way the Emperor would get enough power to defeat one, let alone all of them, would be to devour the human race, kind of defeating the purpose.

But still, the human race was able to create three of the most powerful gods, and they are more numerous than Eldar ever were. Who says they need to be incredibly powerful? Their collective power should be enough.

The human race did not create the three most powerful gods, they already existed before, they were merely "awakened" or made self aware by humanity. Actually I'm not even sure if it was humanity who did it.

Isn't it written somewhere that the warp used to be a relatively benign place and was only made hostile during the War in Heaven (Crons & Old ones)? Could that have anything to do with the formation of the first three?

The Chaos gods were inadvertantly created by the Old Ones when they created the Eldar and Orks.

BrainDeleted wrote:

KingDeath wrote:Destroying Cadia would also ( possibly ) destroy the largest stable route out of the Eye of Terror. While the Despoiler is most certainly insane he is not stupid.

Well, it'd just be empty space with a star. You can still go through it just no resupply depot on the way or defensible hard point. A situation much more in Abaddon's favor than in the Imperial's.

Not quite. It is assumed that the Cadian Pylons are what keeps the warproute out of ( and into ) the Eye of Terror stable. It is therefore unwise to outright destroy Cadia.