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Goliath wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Goliath wrote:

A Kvlt Ghost wrote:Except that one is a dangerous mental illness

I agree wholeheartedly, it is a sexual perversion that ought to be rooted out and stopped.

I for one support the death penalty for these freaks, but even if that isn't supported by law, then chemical castration should suffice, as these freaks are an abomination and should be destroyed.

Was I talking about paedophilia or a historical view of homosexuality there?

Because before recently people had many of the punishments proposed in this thread for paedophiles inflicted upon them for homosexuality, and even today there are many countries where these punishments are still meted out.

Just something for everyone to think about.

Are you suggesting that pedophilia is not a sickness and will one day be accepted?

No, but I am suggesting that the people recommending these punishments maybe take a step away from the computer and calm down, because they seem to forget that not all paedophiles will act on their urges.

If the punishments are being proposed only for people that actually commit child rape then I am fine with that, but suggesting that they should be extended to anyone with the slightest sexual attraction to children would imply some sort of secret police whose sole purpose is to hunt down paedophiles who haven't yet acted out their urges.

On a different, but related note, what about cases like this?

where both of the participants are under age, but one of them is older than the other?

Would the people on this board propose the death penalty or chemical castration for the girl in this case?

If he hasn't acted on his urges, life in a mental asylum would be the fair punishment imo.

I believe that age should be factored into the punishment. Refer back to my earlier post on this thread concerning what I learned first hand about pedophiles.
In the case of the girl, there is some need of psychiatric attention in the long term.

Mr Hyena wrote:

Goliath wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Goliath wrote:

A Kvlt Ghost wrote:Except that one is a dangerous mental illness

I agree wholeheartedly, it is a sexual perversion that ought to be rooted out and stopped.

I for one support the death penalty for these freaks, but even if that isn't supported by law, then chemical castration should suffice, as these freaks are an abomination and should be destroyed.

Was I talking about paedophilia or a historical view of homosexuality there?

Because before recently people had many of the punishments proposed in this thread for paedophiles inflicted upon them for homosexuality, and even today there are many countries where these punishments are still meted out.

Just something for everyone to think about.

Are you suggesting that pedophilia is not a sickness and will one day be accepted?

No, but I am suggesting that the people recommending these punishments maybe take a step away from the computer and calm down, because they seem to forget that not all paedophiles will act on their urges.

If the punishments are being proposed only for people that actually commit child rape then I am fine with that, but suggesting that they should be extended to anyone with the slightest sexual attraction to children would imply some sort of secret police whose sole purpose is to hunt down paedophiles who haven't yet acted out their urges.

On a different, but related note, what about cases like this?

where both of the participants are under age, but one of them is older than the other?

Would the people on this board propose the death penalty or chemical castration for the girl in this case?

If he hasn't acted on his urges, life in a mental asylum would be the fair punishment imo.

This is the thing that I have problems with.

He hasn't acted on his urges. He keeps them hidden, lets say that he knows that they're wrong and he's ashamed of them, but for all intents and purposes he is a normal member of society.

You're suggesting that there should be some sort of secret police to root through people's personal lives and determine whether or not they are a paedophile, and then throw this man who hasn't done anything wrong into a mental asylum for his entire life?

Viewing images of children being raped should be a crime. The difficulty arises in that you can accidentally view such things, or they can be maliciously sent to you or planted on your computer. But it remains a serious crime to intentionally view these images and videos. A paedophile who does not look at such images or act on their urges in any way is not a problem, but possession of child pornography should be a crime.

Da Boss wrote:Viewing images of children being raped should be a crime. The difficulty arises in that you can accidentally view such things, or they can be maliciously sent to you or planted on your computer. But it remains a serious crime to intentionally view these images and videos. A paedophile who does not look at such images or act on their urges in any way is not a problem, but possession of child pornography should be a crime.

That's the truth.

Da Boss wrote:Viewing images of children being raped should be a crime. The difficulty arises in that you can accidentally view such things, or they can be maliciously sent to you or planted on your computer. But it remains a serious crime to intentionally view these images and videos. A paedophile who does not look at such images or act on their urges in any way is not a problem, but possession of child pornography should be a crime.

This I agree with.

This is the thing that I have problems with.

He hasn't acted on his urges. He keeps them hidden, lets say that he knows that they're wrong and he's ashamed of them, but for all intents and purposes he is a normal member of society.

You're suggesting that there should be some sort of secret police to root through people's personal lives and determine whether or not they are a paedophile, and then throw this man who hasn't done anything wrong into a mental asylum for his entire life?

The difficulty is that he may act on his urges. Regardless if he did anything right or wrong; hes still a pedophile for having pedophillic thoughts.

Its the same reason someone who has too many violent thoughts should go to a mental asylum.

Mr Hyena wrote:

This is the thing that I have problems with.

He hasn't acted on his urges. He keeps them hidden, lets say that he knows that they're wrong and he's ashamed of them, but for all intents and purposes he is a normal member of society.

You're suggesting that there should be some sort of secret police to root through people's personal lives and determine whether or not they are a paedophile, and then throw this man who hasn't done anything wrong into a mental asylum for his entire life?

The difficulty is that he may act on his urges. Regardless if he did anything right or wrong; hes still a pedophile for having pedophillic thoughts.

Its the same reason someone who has too many violent thoughts should go to a mental asylum.

But as I said, this man is, for all intents and purposes, normal.

The man that you said would be in a mental asylum would be acting erratically, and could well have very obvious signs that he is troubled.

The paedophile would only be identifiable as a paedophile if he went up to someone and said "I am a paedohile"

How would you suggest that we detect that this man was having paedophilic thoughts?

By thinking about children in a sexual way; in otherwords, him admitting he has sexual thoughts of children.

Viewing sexual imagery counts acting so its the only way to tell.

biccat wrote:From what I read of your posts, you seem to be in favor of a system of capital punishment in theory, but in practice would oppose any that wasn't prohibitively expensive. How is this any different from complete opposition to capital punishment?

Basically, yes. It's not really different in practise from a complete opposition, but it is ideologically different from most opposition to capital punishment which tends to be rooted in the idea that killing is inherantly wrong. I don't think it is, but I generally oppose capital punishment for the reasons I mentioned; in order for it to be satisfactory, the cost would be prohibitive, so I would oppose it on economic grounds.

I can't really say "I support the death penalty in cases of absolute certainty of guilt" because while I would, that level of certainty is so hard to come by that it would make for a very impractical legal position. I completely support it in certain contexts (the execution of Caucescu, for example)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Hyena wrote:someone who has too many violent thoughts should go to a mental asylum.

Mr Hyena wrote:

This is the thing that I have problems with.

He hasn't acted on his urges. He keeps them hidden, lets say that he knows that they're wrong and he's ashamed of them, but for all intents and purposes he is a normal member of society.

You're suggesting that there should be some sort of secret police to root through people's personal lives and determine whether or not they are a paedophile, and then throw this man who hasn't done anything wrong into a mental asylum for his entire life?

The difficulty is that he may act on his urges. Regardless if he did anything right or wrong; hes still a pedophile for having pedophillic thoughts.

Its the same reason someone who has too many violent thoughts should go to a mental asylum.

By that reasoning anyone who goes to a violent movie should be locked up because they have violent thoughts.

Mr Hyena wrote:By thinking about children in a sexual way; in otherwords, him admitting he has sexual thoughts of children.

Viewing sexual imagery counts acting so its the only way to tell.

Ah, in that case then he should be forced by the courts to undergo psychiatric treatment, maybe not life imprisonment.

By that reasoning anyone who goes to a violent movie should be locked up because they have violent thoughts.

Theres a difference between thinking about yourself as an action hero in a movie... than thinking about repeated stabbing your wife/child over and over and over.

Ah, in that case then he should be forced by the courts to undergo psychiatric treatment, maybe not life imprisonment.

Yes. Perhaps monitored too in case of an offence.

Mr Hyena wrote:

By that reasoning anyone who goes to a violent movie should be locked up because they have violent thoughts.

Theres a difference between thinking about yourself as an action hero in a movie... than thinking about repeated stabbing your wife/child over and over and over.

What about slasher movies?

I'm pretty sure you can tell the difference between what I mean. People who are serial killers frequently have obsessive, violent thoughts.

Mr Hyena wrote:Its the closest thing to 'justice' we can get for the victims. Let the criminal experience what he did to the child; then execute him to rid the world of his evil.

Well if someone downloads kiddie porn, he is abusing noone, so there is no need to treat him as visciously.

I think we need to draw a very firm line between owning illegal porn and actual direct sexual abuse of a child.
Paedophiles need help not beatings. However they cannot seek help because just being a paedo is considered a crime, let alone anything they might do.

Orlanth wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:Its the closest thing to 'justice' we can get for the victims. Let the criminal experience what he did to the child; then execute him to rid the world of his evil.

Well if someone downloads kiddie porn, he is abusing noone, so there is no need to treat him as visciously.

I think we need to draw a very firm line between owning illegal porn and actual direct sexual abuse of a child.
Paedophiles need help not beatings. However they cannot seek help because just being a paedo is considered a crime, let alone anything they might do.

I disagree. If you own kiddie porn, somewhere, a child was abused sexually to create it, making you an enabler and accomplice. In my mind it's one in the same. As I said earlier in the thread, I have direct experience with this, and I have learned from psycologists an police that once a certain age is reached, someone who abuses children or contributes to their abuse (kiddie porn users), has no real prospect of rehabilitation.

Relapse is 100% dead on, here.

Orlanth wrote:if someone downloads kiddie porn, he is abusing noone

He's benefitting from abuse and increasing the demand for abusive material

Orlanth wrote:I think we need to draw a very firm line between owning illegal porn and actual direct sexual abuse of a child.

Yes, they're different crimes, but the deliberate consumption of material created by abuse still needs to be a serious offense.

Relapse wrote:

Orlanth wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:Its the closest thing to 'justice' we can get for the victims. Let the criminal experience what he did to the child; then execute him to rid the world of his evil.

Well if someone downloads kiddie porn, he is abusing noone, so there is no need to treat him as visciously.

I think we need to draw a very firm line between owning illegal porn and actual direct sexual abuse of a child.
Paedophiles need help not beatings. However they cannot seek help because just being a paedo is considered a crime, let alone anything they might do.

I disagree. If you own kiddie porn, somewhere, a child was abused sexually to create it, making you an enabler and accomplice. In my mind it's one in the same.

Watching an act and committing an act can never be one and the same. That being said, I agree that simply possessing/distributing this material is harmful and dangerous, and people who do so deliberately are indeed enablers and accomplices.

Relapse wrote: As I said earlier in the thread, I have direct experience with this, and I have learned from psycologists an police that once a certain age is reached, someone who abuses children or contributes to their abuse (kiddie porn users), has no real prospect of rehabilitation.

Funny thing- back in the 80s, many police and people who advised police would tell you authoritatively that D&D players had criminal tendencies, and that Satanists were commiting crimes of child abuse, kidnapping and murder across the country. Neither of which was even remotely true. Now, I'm not disagreeing that there is real evidence of high rates of recidivism amount child molesters (there certainly is), but just because a policeman, or even a psychologist, tells you some absolute truth or law of human behavior doesn't necessarily make it so. If they are truly and totally irredeemable, and can never control themselves, that negates all responsibility on our part AND on their part to even try. I think that kind of convenient rationale is very morally dubious, and becomes a convenient way to abdicate our obligation to try to look for solutions.

Da Boss wrote:This sort of rabid posting convinces me that paedophiles are simply the last group it is socially acceptable to absolutely and unreservedly hate, and that people love a bit of pure hatred.

I'm attending university in pursuit of a bachelor's degree in psychology, so I can become a social worker, and one of the first things we were taught is that while you may hate something, like a pedo or a serial killer, you have to accept that they are what they are, you may not condone it, but you have to understand it. Yes, it is classified as a mental illness in the DSMIV, yes, I do find it repulsive and disgusting, but all these violent suggestions of punishment are not going to help anything in the long run.

@Mannahnin, I had a real good inside look at this situation and the people telling me about the recidivism rate among child molesters and those indulging in kiddie porn spoke from years of experience.

I think that what Mannahnin is saying is that if you do a bit of research and get some hard numbers from a credible source you'll be able to make a more convincing argument than what basically boils down to "This guy told me something that I believe despite not having inherently verified it."

If you locked people up for being sexually attracted to children, you'd have to imprison 1-2% of the population, despite them posing no risk to the safety of children whatsoever.
It's a sexual urge like any other, and can be controlled. Obviously people who actually harm children should be hanged, as should people who claim that pediatricians are pedophiles.

Joey wrote:...as should people who claim that pediatricians are pedophiles.

Is this really that rampant? I bet it's huge among the "hurrr vaccines are bad" crowd.

Monster Rain wrote:

Joey wrote:...as should people who claim that pediatricians are pedophiles.

Is this really that rampant? I bet it's huge among the "hurrr vaccines are bad" crowd.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/aug/30/childprotection.society wrote:Self-styled vigilantes attacked the home of a hospital paediatrician after apparently confusing her professional title with the word "paedophile", it emerged yesterday...Five families who were wrongly identified as harbouring sex offenders were forced to flee their homes in the Paulsgrove estate in Portsmouth as violence flared earlier this month...The Sunday tabloid wants the government to introduce a law allowing people access to information on the identities and addresses of paedophiles in their areas.

Witch-hunting peadophiles sells papers.

I imagine that places podiatrists in harm's way as well.

Monster Rain wrote:I imagine that places podiatrists in harm's way as well.

They'll have to hop to it, then. Something like that could cost them an arm and a leg...

A Kvlt Ghost wrote:

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:An arguement I have seen, which is not popular in some circles as it means the fabled 'Rehabilitation' is nigh on impossible. Is that, folks who are this way, either naurally find Children sexually attractive (and have limited to no control)

I don't think anyone "naturally" finds children attractive - paedophilia is a paraphilia and most likely results from psychological damage or trauma of some kind.

Tbh I have no research to back anything up, but from a few things I've read/seen over the years, there do seem to more than one or two Psychologists who believe that you can have a natural preference for children, that stems onwards from their own childhood. Where as the 'average' (hate that word regarding humanity) person grows up and finds adult women attractive, a Paedophile, sees no distinction between a child and a woman on a sexual level once he reachs adulthood.

A Kvlt Ghost wrote:

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:or have chosen to like children, as say someone can choose to be bisexual or homosexual.

The old "being gay is a choice" chestnut? Have you seen this argument from anyone other than the westboro baptist church?

A bit harsh, if you note my sentance I say someone, implying an individual. There are many reasons for being interested in those of the same gender as yourself and not a subject for this thread, and it has been known for folks to just 'try' it, that was no comment on a connection between the two and I am not against homosexuality in anyway whatsoever.

I was trying to imply (sadly it seems badly) that paedophila can be discovered upon and in effect a choice as well. In fact most psychologists I have seen speaking about the viewing of these images seem to think it is a slippery one way slope once on it. I sadly think the number of police officers who have at one time been involved in the seeking out of the criminals who preform these acts, to then be discovered to be commiting offenses regarding keeping images, is a pretty strong warning on why this stuff needs to be purged from the internet.

remilia_scarlet wrote:

Da Boss wrote:This sort of rabid posting convinces me that paedophiles are simply the last group it is socially acceptable to absolutely and unreservedly hate, and that people love a bit of pure hatred.

I'm attending university in pursuit of a bachelor's degree in psychology, so I can become a social worker, and one of the first things we were taught is that while you may hate something, like a pedo or a serial killer, you have to accept that they are what they are, you may not condone it, but you have to understand it. Yes, it is classified as a mental illness in the DSMIV, yes, I do find it repulsive and disgusting, but all these violent suggestions of punishment are not going to help anything in the long run.

I've worked with a lot of pedophiles back when I was a correctional nurse. Pedophilia is a mental illness that has little to no chance of being cured, so psychiatry, psychology, and therapy won't accomplish much. Throwing pedophiles in prison where they face daily threats of rape and death will just turns them into even more dysfunctional monsters, which is highly problematic because the next thing we do is release them from prison and tell them they can't go near children anymore. If you understand the disease and objectively look at the success rates of treatment the result is consistent failure. If you objectively look at the success rates of the prison system in treating pedophilia the result is almost universally that they come out of prison a more dangerous individual than when they entered prison. We just can't help them out enough with treatment that is successful enough to keep children safe. I don't see a primitive need to torture and kill people for what they are, nor do I see a need for a fear inspired knee jerk reaction to break out the zyklon b, but if pedophiles are allowed to roam free the net result is children will be raped. I hate to say this, but if we don't permanently quarantine pedophiles away from children the result should be obvious. It doesn't need to be an entire life of hard time behind bars in a supermax, but they have to be isolated from children.