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There's no such thing as true "justice" so define it however you wish.

There's been debate on the subject since the time of Plato, I doubt we'll cover any new ground here.

How many priests are aspiring priests were caught in the sting?

@Monster Rain: Indeed not, sometimes I wonder the point of it all.

Internet ego stroking?

There was a term for that on another forum I saw, something like "intellectual masturbation". I liked that one.

An arguement I have seen, which is not popular in some circles as it means the fabled 'Rehabilitation' is nigh on impossible. Is that, folks who are this way, either naurally find Children sexually attractive (and have limited to no control) or have chosen to like children, as say someone can choose to be bisexual or homosexual.

It's not very easier to fix as they in effect 'wired' that way, so the best you can do is convince them not to follow through on their urges.

Chemical Castration for example has been shown not to work in some cases, and in fact made some more aggressively disposed towards 'dominating' Children, much like the mindset of most Rapists.

I sadly do not think there are any easy answers, the best I have is someone is given one chance to repent (control themselves, whatever you want to call it) after being caught. As soon as they have become a multiple offender (unless they already are when first caught) then they are extremely sanction/watched etc for the rest of their lives. Probably with long prison terms attached.

Any folks caught doing catagory five stuff, murder associated (to cover up) their attacks or touching pre-school/babies (under five) should be rubbed out immediately as far as I am concerned, no questions asked.

Da Boss wrote:Capital punishment is not cheaper due to the number of appeals. Before wishing for extreme punishments as you are advocating, consider the situation if you (or your father, for example) were accused in the wrong. The courts are not infallible, and forensic evidence is not a silver bullet.

This sort of rabid posting convinces me that paedophiles are simply the last group it is socially acceptable to absolutely and unreservedly hate, and that people love a bit of pure hatred.

Also, there is plenty of research showing that people who commit crimes do not expect to get caught, so many times, punishment does not act as a deterrent. I would be interested in what causes the development of such an aberrant psychology and how we could prevent it though.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil This sums it up quite well.

All crime is bad; but rape is especially considered a morally and socially unforgivable crime. Pedophiles can't be cured whatsoever as it appears that they are born that way. (Have we had any successful rehabilitation of these creatures?) All that means is a burden on the state, knowing these creatures can't be released.

Its pretty impossible to prevent it occurring unless theres some sort of genetic screening for it offered to women carrying children.

Monster: I am aware that the justice system shouldn't work based on the feelings of the people who have been hurt by a crime. If someone hurt my nieces I'd want to murder them, that would be my emotional response. However I am aware that this is an emotional response and that society shouldn't base policy on it. Tends to lead to shortsighted and badly thought out policies.
In the end, brutally murdering the perpetrator would not make my family member feel better, and it would be an act designed to make ME feel better (in my opinion).

Did I say their existence makes you happy? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't. I'm pretty sure their existence makes you sick and angry.

I also didn't say that I tolerate them, or have sympathy for them. You took it that way, which is cool. You then characterised me in a way that makes my viewpoint easier to dismiss, which is sad.

If "just be a person" means I'm not allowed to disagree with you or put forward ideas you find objectionable, I reckon you need to re-evaluate your ideas around free speech. I feel that life imprisonment and study (intense study) is the best way to deal with these people.
I do not believe that paedophilia (or any sexual orientation) is entirely genetic. There are environmental factors, there is no doubt in my mind. And that means we can train this behaviour out of people, or identify the precursors and stop it. Many paedophiles are themselves victims of abuse.

It can't be trained out of them otherwise we wouldn't have so many cases of repeat offenders without at least 1 case where they didn't reoffend. It may be that they were the victims of abuse but in no way does that justify their actions. Not surprising that the justice system has been extremely lenient on these things (much to the despair of those they hurt when reoffending).

If they aren't going to be executed; then put them in jail or a loony bin for life.

feeder wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:The 'just' thing to do is to toss scum like this, into a proper jail. Let the inmates do the same crimes to the pedos as they did to the kids. Prisoners hate pedos more than any other kind of criminal and they follow their own 'code' with dealing with them.

Only once they've suffered enough, hang them. The important thing is to remind them that not even hell would take people as degenerate as them. Make them suffer as much as possible before death.

What purpose, exactly, does this torture serve? Surely not justice.

Its like Jewish people buying German stuff from WWII to burn it.

Mr Hyena wrote:It can't be trained out of them otherwise we wouldn't have so many cases of repeat offenders without at least 1 case where they didn't reoffend.

You can't train a puppy not to urinate on the rug because of all the cases where puppies repeatedly urinate on the rug. C'mon. Re-examine your statement. How do you know there is not a case where a paedophile did not re-offend?

You can't train a puppy not to urinate on the rug because of all the cases where puppies repeatedly urinate on the rug. C'mon. Re-examine your statement. How do you know there is not a case where a paedophile did not re-offend?

Why don't you prove that they are safe to rehabilitate?

LOVE IT!

Awww yeah, what a FANTASTIC argument.

How about you prove that the death penalty would work as a deterrent?
Or that rehabilitation would not prevent re-offence?
Or that paedophilia isn't at least partially caused by environmental factors which could be minimised or avoided?

Da Boss:

I was only making the point that I disagree with the idea that my distaste for baby rapist is somehow tied in to enjoying being socially allowed to hate them.

Okay, I will accept that. I can see how that comment might have caused you some offence, and I apologise.

How about you prove that the death penalty would work as a deterrent?

It doesn't. It saves money on the incurables though.

r that rehabilitation would not prevent re-offence?

Why do we have repeat sexual offenders then?

Or that paedophilia isn't at least partially caused by environmental factors which could be minimised or avoided?

It could be partially environmental. That doesn't change the fact of how dangerous it is to release these things.

Mr Hyena, current rehabilitation is not effective because it is based on shoddy science. I'd be happy with a slight loosening of ethical guidelines and letting the behaviourists into the prisons to experiment on these guys.

Also, the death penalty does not work out cheaper.

The current system doesn't no. If we put in an express lane for iron-clad cases though...

Nothing is iron-clad. Forensic evidence is not as reliable as people think.

And yet it is praised for freeing convicted felons.

It's a tool, nothing more.

Da Boss wrote:Mr Hyena, current rehabilitation is not effective because it is based on shoddy science. I'd be happy with a slight loosening of ethical guidelines and letting the behaviourists into the prisons to experiment on these guys.

Also, the death penalty does not work out cheaper.

Psychology as a whole is 'shoddy science' thats barely deserving of the word science though.

Cognitive psych is really very bad, but behaviouralism and neurobiology are okay.
The entire field suffers from poor stats due to responder bias though (among other concerns.)

Monster Rain wrote:I am not saying this to be "outrageous" or anything, but I'd like to see this sort of thing punished with death.

Not outrageous at all. I myself have thought this several times for crime cases.

The reason it never will be considered a proper science is because, largely, it is not measurable like a physical science.

It is measurable if you look at behaviours as the output, but that is insanely complicated so most psychologists don't favour it. But it's the only way the field will progress, IMO. The other issue is the obsession with a) humans and b) human mental illness over working out the basics.

Monster Rain wrote:I don't consider baby rapists and baby rape enthusiasts to be deserving of the same rights and privileges that more civilized folk should enjoy.

This. This a million times over.

It really bugs me when a pedo gets thrown in the clink and then gets special protection because hes a kiddy fiddler. Throw em to the wolves i say aand then after Bubba has his fun, cut his balls open and let him bleed for a bit, then stitch him back up. Rinse and repeat. I wouldnt even give him the death penalty. I'd let him rot in a cell for the rest of his years.

I don't hate molesters and rapsists out of some vague intellectual distaste. I hate them because I know several people who were their victims. I have seen the damage they cause.

Death is a mercy, compared to the pain thier victims suffer.

Murderers and torturers are frequently horrible people and destroy lives too. We seriously do not want to employ any torturers or ever think that torture as punishment is a good idea. Even if a given offender deserves it, you are corrupting the person inflicting the punishment, and setting an awful example to other people involved in the system. We know from experience (Abu Ghraib, Bagram, and years before that, England/Northern Ireland) that when torture is permitted to be used even in extreme cases, it tends to become accepted and routine even in lesser cases.

Our justice system and our commitment to our principles ares always most sorely tested when dealing with the worst offenders.

Da Boss has it. While I won't rule out that some folks deserve death*, our ability to ascertain with certainty which folks those are has always been imperfect. The best option is life imprisonment without parole, and dedicated study by behavioral psychologists to try to figure these folks out and whether there is any way to "fix" them.


*Though we can also quote Gandalf here: " Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Gandalf did his fair share of killing, though.

it's true, but I don't think he went out looking to kill or torture even Orcs or Balrogs.

I'd like to distance myself from the torture crowd, if I may.

Think of the most humane way to kill them, and let's go with that. Oh, and you can't say "Old Age."