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Okay, let's look at a hypothetical situation.

Guy goes to college to be a teacher. Discovers along the way that he has an inapropriate attraction to the youngsters. He switches majors to something else - say, business management. He avoids schools, playgrounds, McDonalds, and anyplace else lots of kids are going to be at (avoiding kids in public entirely is probably impossible, but he tries his best). He marries late, because it takes him a good long time to establish that the person he is dating is really, really serious about not wanting to have kids - he doesn't dare have any for fear of what he might do. He doesn't babysit for his mates, in fact he avoids his mate's kids entirely even at the potential expense of the friendship.

In short, he never acts on his inapropriate attraction to kids at all. He goes out of his way to avoid being tempted.

Should he be punished?


That's my real problem with teachers, foster care providers, and what not that are peodphiles. If you KNOW you have this problem... what are you doing hanging out with kids all day? And so, I have little sympathy for them if they act. It's really not THAT hard to avoid the little monsters in the first place.

(I'm really not fond of kids, you might have noticed. Aside from the inapropriate attraction and the teaching major, the scenario is pretty much the way I live my life. I cannot stand children. And avoiding being exposed to them entirely has proved to be impossible, I have certainly managed to minimize my exposure to them by avoiding places they frequent. So... what's your excuse, Mr. Pedophile Teacher?)

Relapse wrote:

Orlanth wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:Its the closest thing to 'justice' we can get for the victims. Let the criminal experience what he did to the child; then execute him to rid the world of his evil.

Well if someone downloads kiddie porn, he is abusing noone, so there is no need to treat him as visciously.

I think we need to draw a very firm line between owning illegal porn and actual direct sexual abuse of a child.
Paedophiles need help not beatings. However they cannot seek help because just being a paedo is considered a crime, let alone anything they might do.

I disagree. If you own kiddie porn, somewhere, a child was abused sexually to create it, making you an enabler and accomplice. In my mind it's one in the same. As I said earlier in the thread, I have direct experience with this, and I have learned from psycologists an police that once a certain age is reached, someone who abuses children or contributes to their abuse (kiddie porn users), has no real prospect of rehabilitation.

The majority of extreme porn is in fact CGI. And yes that deos count in the laws of many European countries including the UK. Animation is a safe means of procuring extreme porn. as people do not get to see what the offender is looking at we might not be aware of the level of offense. Yes there could be some life porn, but that need not be the case. Also trial notes and sentencing and the record will not delimit between the two, its still possession of pornographic images involving children. Therefore it is possible to be convicted of child porn offences without ever directly or indirectly harming a child. Furthermore as the material would be confiscated and destroyed you will nto be able to tell the difference.

This calls directly into question your logical 'right' to subsequently act as public avenger and call for maltreatment of such offenders.

Monster Rain wrote:Relapse is 100% dead wrong, here.

Fixed.

The issue is that abuse is not guaranteed.

A good comperable example is extreme BDSM and torture porn. That is legal and easy to find on the net. The vast majority is CGI nowadays, it creates the scene without harming the victim. Kiddie porn is apparently no different and criminal legislation makes special mention of it in both for a non-exhaustive example both EU and UK law.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A Kvlt Ghost wrote:

Orlanth wrote:I think we need to draw a very firm line between owning illegal porn and actual direct sexual abuse of a child.

Yes, they're different crimes, but the deliberate consumption of material created by abuse still needs to be a serious offense.

agreed, possession of any type of child pornopraphy should be a serious offense. I see it as three of four stages rather than two, rapidly declining in culpability after the first two.

- Child abuser manufacturing porn.
- Child abuser.
- Recipient of child abuse porn
- Manufacturer or recipient of simulated child abuse porn.

@Orlanth,

I have an intimate knowledge of child molesters and their motivations, chance at rehabilitation, etc. Due to the fact that one attacked my three year old daughter.
Fortunatly he was stopped by my wife before he did more than get her panties off, but in the ensuing year and trial that followed, I had plrnty of chance to study the matter and talk to proffesionals who deal with these kind of people.
I can tell you I don't care if someone is watching cartoons. It's when they indulge in kiddie porn with real people involved that gets me pissed.
I know a good deal more about this I think than you do.

Relapse wrote:@Orlanth,

I have an intimate knowledge of child molesters and their motivations, chance at rehabilitation, etc. Due to the fact that one attacked my three year old daughter.
Fortunatly he was stopped by my wife before he did more than get her panties off, but in the ensuing year and trial that followed, I had plrnty of chance to study the matter and talk to proffesionals who deal with these kind of people.
I can tell you I don't care if someone is watching cartoons. It's when they indulge in kiddie porn with real people involved that gets me pissed.
I know a good deal more about this I think than you do.

I havent experienced that, but that does not mean you know all the cases. You had a scare story that is all, not to belittle a close call.

When that fether gets to prison someone might be in the same week found with kiddie CGI on his computer who has never hurt a child and may never do. Both are labelled 'paedos' and people do not stop to think too much beyond that point.

Let me give you a good case in point. 'Operation Ore' was the UK end of a FBI sting involving a snap site, msotly of adult porn with a tag along site containing one picture of genuine child pornography. Anyone who visited the site got busted, this included people who had their credit card ID stolen and used to pay for the site by third parties, people who paid for the site themselves never knowing there was a page with child porn etc. All got labelled 'paedos' or were in danfer of such. Some including a man who had his ID stolen and never visited the site commited suicide, many more lost their jobs.

You see you met a child predator, a real one. Fair enough. However even those who were guilty caught under Operation Orb, let alone those who didnt know what they has signed up for were all in the same boat as the scumbag who tried to take your daughter. In the minds of many there is no difference between them. You seem to be at least partly of that opinion when you promote an appeal to authority by your experiences. what happened to you is the aberration, the majority of people caught are done so for virtual offences, often very insignificant ones. After all the offending photo used to prosecute for Operation Avalanch and Operation Ore was a single image.

We cannot in all honesty treat them all the same category as the man your family encountered..

Any time someone knowingly seeks out and watches kiddie porn with live children involved, they are no better than the actual creaters.
As I said, I had ample time and motivation to study these people, and it is a spiral that only gets worse the more it is indulged to the point where there is no real hope of cure for most.
It's a sad and loathsome world these people end up in, whether from being abused themselves and acting out on there victimization, growing up in a violent home, or, in my mind the worst of the lot, getting into the lifestyle out of curiousity.

Orlanth wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Relapse is 100% dead wrong, here.

Fixed.

The issue is that abuse is not guaranteed.

Cute, but still wrong.

Purchasing and subsequently fapping to material in which actual children are actually sexually abused guarantees abuse by definition. Bringing up CGI is a red herring and completely beside the point.

Monster Rain wrote:

Orlanth wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Relapse is 100% dead wrong, here.

Fixed.

The issue is that abuse is not guaranteed.

Cute, but still wrong.

Purchasing and subsequently fapping to material in which actual children are actually sexually abused guarantees abuse by definition. Bringing up CGI is a red herring and completely beside the point.

CGI is a red herring defenense lawyers use to explain why their client has over half a terabyte of child porn between their hard drive, cell phone, and thumb drives. They then try to convince 1 idiot on the jury that their client thought all of it was CGI.

Can't say how things go in the uk but in the usa revieving and distributing child porn makes a person part of a conspiracy under the rico act. Most of the people out there with large libraries of child porn build it by trading child porn with other pedophiles which makes it a conspiracy under the rico act.

Not a red herring but situational.

One can be prosecuted entirely on CGI porn in a lot of countries including the UK. In fact especially the UK as a lot of quite regular artwork had to be made exception for because the rules are so severe. e.g Madonna and Child paintings etc.


You are assuming everyone convicted had either actual live child porn or was a de facto abuser. Sorry this need not be the case. Therefore further classification is needed especially if you advocate marking paedos for additional social punishment 'for the sake of the children'.

What nails people in the usa is the actual child rapist takes pictures, trades the pictures for more media to paedo B, then paedo B trades with paedo C, and when they get busted they are all now in a rico conspiracy case.

There is something called chemical castration that can be opted for in some countries. although if were talking cost over punishment, I admit I dont know what something like that costs.

Child predators like this should be tossed into a ring and be forced to drop the soap while surrounded by a bunch of Chaos terminators of Khorne with lightning claws, while making sure not to kill the offender. After hours of being eviscerated, they should be hung/decapitated in front of the others who are next in line. OR, they could be dragon kicked in the groin by Chuck Norris wearing electric eel cleats a hundred times, then karate chopped in half by Raedyn from Mortal Kombat.

Vulcan wrote:Okay, let's look at a hypothetical situation.

Guy goes to college to be a teacher. Discovers along the way that he has an inapropriate attraction to the youngsters. He switches majors to something else - say, business management. He avoids schools, playgrounds, McDonalds, and anyplace else lots of kids are going to be at (avoiding kids in public entirely is probably impossible, but he tries his best). He marries late, because it takes him a good long time to establish that the person he is dating is really, really serious about not wanting to have kids - he doesn't dare have any for fear of what he might do. He doesn't babysit for his mates, in fact he avoids his mate's kids entirely even at the potential expense of the friendship.

In short, he never acts on his inapropriate attraction to kids at all. He goes out of his way to avoid being tempted.

Should he be punished?


That's my real problem with teachers, foster care providers, and what not that are peodphiles. If you KNOW you have this problem... what are you doing hanging out with kids all day? And so, I have little sympathy for them if they act. It's really not THAT hard to avoid the little monsters in the first place.

(I'm really not fond of kids, you might have noticed. Aside from the inapropriate attraction and the teaching major, the scenario is pretty much the way I live my life. I cannot stand children. And avoiding being exposed to them entirely has proved to be impossible, I have certainly managed to minimize my exposure to them by avoiding places they frequent. So... what's your excuse, Mr. Pedophile Teacher?)

Temptation is not a crime; so the answer is no. If he manages to avoid offending (including seeking child porn because that is just child abuse by proxy) then he is not a criminal he has a psychological difficulty he is dealing with.

In an offender paedophilia isn't so much a choice as a sexuality, the only offending paedophile that does not repeat thier crimes is a paedophile that is locked up. It's like telling a straight guy not to like women.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orlanth wrote:

When that fether gets to prison someone might be in the same week found with kiddie CGI on his computer who has never hurt a child and may never do. Both are labelled 'paedos' and people do not stop to think too much beyond that point.

Let me give you a good case in point. 'Operation Ore' was the UK end of a FBI sting involving a snap site, msotly of adult porn with a tag along site containing one picture of genuine child pornography. Anyone who visited the site got busted, this included people who had their credit card ID stolen and used to pay for the site by third parties, people who paid for the site themselves never knowing there was a page with child porn etc. All got labelled 'paedos' or were in danfer of such. Some including a man who had his ID stolen and never visited the site commited suicide, many more lost their jobs.

You see you met a child predator, a real one. Fair enough. However even those who were guilty caught under Operation Orb, let alone those who didnt know what they has signed up for were all in the same boat as the scumbag who tried to take your daughter. In the minds of many there is no difference between them. You seem to be at least partly of that opinion when you promote an appeal to authority by your experiences. what happened to you is the aberration, the majority of people caught are done so for virtual offences, often very insignificant ones. After all the offending photo used to prosecute for Operation Avalanch and Operation Ore was a single image.

We cannot in all honesty treat them all the same category as the man your family encountered..

Operatio Ore went further than that.

I was a student in the late 90's and did what I shall call a little "grey hatting". I wanted to know who was running kiddie porn sites and getting away with it.

I resolved the DNS addresses of the sites back to IP addresses the did a trace route back to the host server. I then resolved the address back to find the server owner and location.

Guess what the result was in 9 out of 10 cases:

FBI, Langley, Virginia, US.

There was a prolonged period in the mid to late nineties when the world's number one distributor of child pornography was the FBI. Ok they were entrapping paedophiles but...

"A vast amount of material has been seized, much of it encrypted. One suspect in Switzerland had more than 120 terabytes (1,000 gigabytes) of data -- amounting to thousands of hours of high-definition video footage, Europol said."

That is a lot of footage. How does someone even find the time to look up that many different video, or create them for that matter?

And babyrape? Seriously? WTF kinda messed up sh&^ is that?

Razorspirit wrote:"A vast amount of material has been seized, much of it encrypted. One suspect in Switzerland had more than 120 terabytes (1,000 gigabytes) of data -- amounting to thousands of hours of high-definition video footage, Europol said."

That is a lot of footage. How does someone even find the time to look up that many different video, or create them for that matter?

And babyrape? Seriously? WTF kinda messed up sh&^ is that?

If it's encrypted how do they know what it is? It could be hours of static or he could have a lot of pirate movies. You can't prosecute someone based on what you guess is on their hard drive.

Sonophos wrote:You can't prosecute someone based on what you guess is on their hard drive.

I'm sure that's exactly what is happening.

"What's on that hard drive, detective?"

"I dunno."

"Well, book him for fapping to baby rape videos then."

Monster Rain wrote:

Sonophos wrote:You can't prosecute someone based on what you guess is on their hard drive.

I'm sure that's exactly what is happening.

"What's on that hard drive, detective?"

"I dunno."

"Well, book him for fapping to baby rape videos then."

A very hard line good cop/bad cop routine for the copyright police, I think.

"Give us the encryption key and admit you are pirate bay or we will prosecute you for having kiddie porn on there."

The "You wouldn't steal a car" advert is due a replacement seeing as the soundtrack infringes copyright anyway.

Just on chemical castration- I really doubt that'll stop some twisted SOB from hurting kids if that's what they want to do.

Da Boss wrote:Just on chemical castration- I really doubt that'll stop some twisted SOB from hurting kids if that's what they want to do.

There are cases of chemically castrated offenders escalating. It is not done in the UK but we do make the mistake of letting them out.

Monster Rain wrote:I am not saying this to be "outrageous" or anything, but I'd like to see this sort of thing punished with death.

If we punish rape with death, What is preventing them with killing to victim to prevent a witness?
But yeah. Sick stuff. So damn sick. I look and my nieces and nehews it just disgusts me that there are people out there who wish to harm them like that.

I would think that harsher punishments handed down would incentivise a perpetrator to protect themselves by killing the victim.

The vast majority of child abuse is familial abuse, followed by abuse by persons of trust and a very small number of abductions for abuse.

I would arhue that the actual incidence of child abuse per head of population has not risen since the 1950s but the reporting and perception of it has changed.

In the UK during the 1970s statutory rape was treated very differently to the way in which it is handled now. It was a slap on the wrist affair by comparison and in some instances was ignored as harmless.

What I do see is that fear of the Paedophile is driving parents to keep thier kids in ever more controlled environments where they can not learn self reliance or responsibility.

CHILD SNATCHERS ARE VERY RARE. Harsh punishments lead to crime escalation, so the punishments given to paedophiles should not be reported in the press; equally the sordid details of these crimes should not be pawed over in the press.

Paedophilia has an exceptionally high recidivism rate so I do not beleive they can be reformed in most cases but the death penalty (or the harhser punishments many advocate) will only lead to the death of the main witness to the crime.

Don't worry guys, Greece has got this problem solved.

I love this bit:

"The new government "disability" list also includes compulsive gamblers, fetishists, exhibitionists and sado-masochists, the Associated Press news agency reports."

All you need to do to get disability benefit in greece is to go into a casino, show some people your privates whilst abusing a lettuce and asking for a croupier spanking.

And the Germans are bailing these guys out?

I would like to point out that since the IMF is also bailing out Greece so are you.

biccat wrote:Don't worry guys, Greece has got this problem solved.

what in the feth?

Sonophos wrote:I would like to point out that since the IMF is also bailing out Greece so are you.

Greece is officially on my list.