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Gornall wrote:
BA TH/SS Termies are priced that way because FNP removes one of their major weaknesses, which is simply making them fail 2+ saves. If you took them to 50 ppm, you would never see them taken in either book.

FNP isn't an *always on* ability with BA's, they have to have sanguinary priests and be within 6", neither of which are always present for BA TH/SS terminators. Assuming that FNP has any effect on their costing, as opposed the FNP being built into the cost of the 50pt 1W Sanguinary Priest, is rather silly. Why would such a cost increase not also apply to other terminators?

Go ahead and remove them from the codex at that point. 50 ppm is almost the same cost as Paladins...

Paladin's can't get an invul save better than 5+ against shooting and have to pay lots of points and/or give up higher init/str to get a better invul save in CC, in many ways they are easier to engage and destroy.

And lets not forget that TH/SS termi's on average will win combat against Paladin's quite handily due to that 3++ invul and inflicting ID on those 2 wound models.

In a C:SM army, what alternative for a heavy durable CC unit would you really have? Would you drop them and redesign the army, or would you find points elsewhere for the CC deathstar? Most people would go with the latter. If that's the case, then the unit is probably undercosted.

My biggest question in all of this is what would the point of increasing the cost be? To see fewer TH/SS units taken? I would argue that they aren't even seen very much now, so why is it important to see them taken less?

They are fairly ubiquitous with C:SM armies, C:BA has more assault alternatives so you don't see them as much, and they aren't very "Blood Angel-y" in many people's eyes. Really, the point would be to cost them appropriately relative to their abilities. Fewer TH/SS units wouldn't be a bad thing. They're a crutch unit, they're a point and click unit that all you need to do is direct them at a target and generally they reach it and destroy it without much effort or thought or recourse, and that's really never good for the game.

Vaktathi wrote:FNP isn't an *always on* ability with BA's, they have to have sanguinary priests and be within 6", neither of which are always present for BA TH/SS terminators. Assuming that FNP has any effect on their costing, as opposed the FNP being built into the cost of the 50pt 1W Sanguinary Priest, is rather silly. Why would such a cost increase not also apply to other terminators?

Regular Termies can still get punked by AP2 weapons, which is why them having FNP is less of an issue. The "ability" to get FNP, even from a 50 point 1W model is enough to warrant the 5 extra points for TH/SS models.

In a C:SM army, what alternative for a heavy durable CC unit would you really have? Would you drop them and redesign the army, or would you find points elsewhere for the CC deathstar? Most people would go with the latter. If that's the case, then the unit is probably undercosted.

Dropping points from the support units in the army to afford more points for a CC deathstar would simply make the list more unbalanced. 50 points might not seem like much, but it's a MM AB, most of a Landspeeder, two Sternguard, or some vital upgrades for other units. I personally would scrap the TH/SS completely from my list and focus on more MSU/shooty elements.

They are fairly ubiquitous with C:SM armies, C:BA has more assault alternatives so you don't see them as much, and they aren't very "Blood Angel-y" in many people's eyes.

TH/SS are taken in SM armies because they are the ONLY viable assault unit that book has. Making them less cost effective is simply going to remove that final option and NOT cause other people to bring the terrible units such as Honorguard and VGVs. In BAs, Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, Honorguard, and VGVs (not to mention the basic assault squads) can be viable assault threats. That (and the extra 5 points) is why you don't see TH/SS taken as much in that book.

Fewer TH/SS units wouldn't be a bad thing. They're a crutch unit, they're a point and click unit that all you need to do is direct them at a target and generally they reach it and destroy it without much effort or thought or recourse, and that's really never good for the game.

If they are such a "point and click" unit, then you would see them in every list. If your local meta is so overrun with TH/SS that you view them as such, then I feel for you... but that is far from the norm. They are a solid option, but far from OP. They die to bolters just fine and can be swamped by any number of horde units. They fill a much required niche in the SM book (anti-deathstar), and if they are made more expensive without some sort of compensation by other units, then that is going to limit the builds for that codex... which is "never good for the game.

Gornall wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:How many EW models get a 3++ save?

Lysander, thats all I can think of.

And Draigo.

And Arjac.

Gornall wrote:
Regular Termies can still get punked by AP2 weapons, which is why them having FNP is less of an issue. The "ability" to get FNP, even from a 50 point 1W model is enough to warrant the 5 extra points for TH/SS models.

Why are they the only units in the entire codex that pay this? Certainly if they're paying it, it should be worth *something* to other units? At that rate, it's almost calculated as if they actually *had* FNP, not as if it's a mere potential.

If the mere potential of FNP is worth extra points on TH/SS termi's, it's worth something for other termi's given that it functions only in the case of an armor save that they all share. Failing armor saves is not a weakness of TH/SS termi's that's somehow unique to them or some exploitable weakness, they're no easier to kill that way than normal terminators are.

It's really funky game design there to simply cost one unit for it's potential to get an ability, rather than cost the unit that actually gives the ability appropriately and/or not cost any other unit in the book for the "potential" to get that ability.

Dropping points from the support units in the army to afford more points for a CC deathstar would simply make the list more unbalanced. 50 points might not seem like much, but it's a MM AB, most of a Landspeeder, two Sternguard, or some vital upgrades for other units.

Yup.

I personally would scrap the TH/SS completely from my list and focus on more MSU/shooty elements.

That'd be part of the general aim, to see less of them, however at the same time, many lists built around such a unit would likely still take them and drop points from elsewhere.

TH/SS are taken in SM armies because they are the ONLY viable assault unit that book has.

Are they really the *only* viable option, or merely seem so because of their cost?

In BAs, Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, Honorguard, and VGVs (not to mention the basic assault squads) can be viable assault threats.

Right, I said that.

If they are such a "point and click" unit, then you would see them in every list. If your local meta is so overrun with TH/SS that you view them as such, then I feel for you... but that is far from the norm.

In my experience in more than one metro area, amongst C:SM armies, they're fairly ubiquitous, especially before a whole bunch of C:SM players jumped ship for C:BA and C:SW. If they aren't a gunline of some sort or a heavily themed army of some sort, they've almost always got a unit of TH/SS termi's, and Tac termi's and LC termi's have gone basically extinct.

They die to bolters just fine

On average it takes 108 BS4 bolter shots to kill a 5man terminator squad of any sort. That's going about it the hard way, exactly what they are designed to be durable against.

They fill a much required niche in the SM book (anti-deathstar), and if they are made more expensive without some sort of compensation by other units, then that is going to limit the builds for that codex... which is "never good for the game.

When they become a "default" unit, and preclude the taking of alternatives, that limits the builds for a codex and reduces the variety and complexity of the game.

Vaktathi wrote:Why are they the only units in the entire codex that pay this? Certainly if they're paying it, it should be worth *something* to other units? At that rate, it's almost calculated as if they actually *had* FNP, not as if it's a mere potential.

If the mere potential of FNP is worth extra points on TH/SS termi's, it's worth something for other termi's given that it functions only in the case of an armor save that they all share. Failing armor saves is not a weakness of TH/SS termi's that's somehow unique to them or some exploitable weakness, they're no easier to kill that way than normal terminators are.

The reason I argue that TH/SS pay a higher "FNP tax" is that TH/SS Terminators with FNP cannot be torrented down effectively and pumping AP2 shots into them is not that effective either. I am not saying that torrenting TH/SS is a unique weakness they have and other units don't. I am just saying that it is the biggest weakness they have, and removing it makes them a much more formidable unit. The other units can still die to AP2, so FNP helps them, but not quite as much as TH/SS Termies. Yes, it is not "always" on, but it is close enough.

That'd be part of the general aim, to see less of them, however at the same time, many lists built around such a unit would likely still take them and drop points from elsewhere.

So kill options because you think they are taken "too much?" (Which is not the case in my experience) And lists built around them become unviable because they really aren't that great now at the current price.

Are they really the *only* viable option, or merely seem so because of their cost?

Only viable unit... period. Honorguard are "assault units" with I4 and no Invulnerable Save. They get punked by almost every other assault unit in the game. They also can do jack squat to vehicles. LC Termies suffer from the same problem, but are also require an expensive transport and don't even have grenades to even threaten a Rhino. VGVs are grossly overpriced and do not fill any role that bolter Tactical Marines couldn't do better/cheaper. Cost has some to do with all of those, but the big unifying theme is that they all "solve" problems that Marines don't really have or don't do anything useful in the current meta.

In my experience in more than one metro area, amongst C:SM armies, they're fairly ubiquitous, especially before a whole bunch of C:SM players jumped ship for C:BA and C:SW. If they aren't a gunline of some sort or a heavily themed army of some sort, they've almost always got a unit of TH/SS termi's, and Tac termi's and LC termi's have gone basically extinct.

Sorry... I just haven't seen it in multiple venues/metas in three different states. I see them in some lists and not in others, which is the mark of a good, viable unit. I haven't been to any GTs yet, but I don't see TH/SS Termies dominating in any of the batreps I have seen from large events. You seem to argue that Tac Termies and LC Termies aren't taken because TH/SS Termies are so good. I argue that is not the case. Tac Termies and LC Termies are not taken because they do not fill a useful role. If TH/SS Termies were completely removed from the book, Tactical Termies and LC Termies would not be taken any more than they are now. They do NOT fill the same role as TH/SS Termies. The TH/SS role is much more relevant in the current meta, which is why you see them more.

On average it takes 90 BS4 bolter shots to kill a 5man terminator squad of any sort. That's going about it the hard way, exactly what they are designed to be durable against.

It takes the same number of shots to kill a 10 Man Tactical Squad. What's your point? If you think that dumping AP2 shots into TH/SS Termies is the "easy" way to kill them, then no wonder you think they need to be more expensive. You are playing into their strength. They are DESIGNED to be durable against AP2 shots and PWs. Unless you can get 1 AP2 shot/PW attack for every 2 normal attacks, then you are better off just swamping their 2+ save versus their 3++.

When they become a "default" unit, and preclude the taking of alternatives, that limits the builds for a codex and reduces the variety and complexity of the game.

They are NOT a default unit. That's what I don't understand, I guess. You don't see them in even a majority of lists. I can understand that you feel they are the default assault unit for SM, and I would agree there. However, that is because the other options suck, plain and simple. Nerfing TH/SS Termies isn't going to fix that. It's just going to push all Space Marine lists into shooty, MSU builds if they want to be effective.

Gornall wrote:
The reason I argue that TH/SS pay a higher "FNP tax" is that TH/SS Terminators with FNP cannot be torrented down effectively and pumping AP2 shots into them is not that effective either. I am not saying that torrenting TH/SS is a unique weakness they have and other units don't. I am just saying that it is the biggest weakness they have, and removing it makes them a much more formidable unit. The other units can still die to AP2, so FNP helps them, but not quite as much as TH/SS Termies. Yes, it is not "always" on, but it is close enough.

I'm not seeing how torrenting them down and forcing them to take 2+sv's is any more effective than it is against other Terminator units, or how it's the biggest weakness they have (it's not much of a weakness)), or how that warrants paying extra points nothing else in the codex has to pay for, for an ability that comes from another Elites unit that may or may not be present and in range. GW has never described designing costs in anything resembling that manner.

By this logic, shouldn't LC termi's also pay more for the *potential* ability of Furious Charge since it likewise augments their offensive power in a manner similar to how FNP augments defensive abilities, perhaps moreso? One will notice they do not.

So kill options because you think they are taken "too much?" (Which is not the case in my experience) And lists built around them become unviable because they really aren't that great now at the current price.

They are taken "too much" because they are quite simply so cheap for what they do as to make alternatives pointless. They crowd out the other options because of their cost. Why take any other assault unit when point for point TH/SS terminators will do it just as well or better even if noticeably increased in cost?

Only viable unit... period. Honorguard are "assault units" with I4 and no Invulnerable Save. They get punked by almost every other assault unit in the game. They also can do jack squat to vehicles. LC Termies suffer from the same problem, but are also require an expensive transport and don't even have grenades to even threaten a Rhino. VGVs are grossly overpriced and do not fill any role that bolter Tactical Marines couldn't do better/cheaper. Cost has some to do with all of those, but the big unifying theme is that they all "solve" problems that Marines don't really have or don't do anything useful in the current meta.

Assault marines, bikes, dreads, etc?

Notice most people don't complain about LC termi's being ineffective the way they often do Tac marines. Sure they can't hurt vehicles, but they put out greatly increased wound output against most infantry units due to a greater number of attacks. Few people complain about their ability. The problem is that TH/SS terminators are just so survivable and versatile for their cost as to make them pointless. The TH/SS termi's are able to engage everything and survive with greater certainty and thus make alternatives pointless in most cases. They can be included and pointed at most things and reliably be expected to survive and engage and likely destroy their target no matter what for the same cost as any other alternative. They don't require any ability to use them effectively aside from pointing them at a target and moving towards it, they don't have to worry about cover, they don't have to worry as much about getting off the charge or not, they don't have to worry about the type of target unless it's a large weeny horde unit, etc. You just point them, they go, likely survive, and smash it, and even for 5 or 10ppm more, and cutting the cost on many alternatives, they'd still be preferable. That 3++sv means everything in this game.

Sorry... I just haven't seen it in multiple venues/metas in three different states. I see them in some lists and not in others, which is the mark of a good, viable unit. I haven't been to any GTs yet, but I don't see TH/SS Termies dominating in any of the batreps I have seen from large events. You seem to argue that Tac Termies and LC Termies aren't taken because TH/SS Termies are so good. I argue that is not the case. Tac Termies and LC Termies are not taken because they do not fill a useful role. If TH/SS Termies were completely removed from the book, Tactical Termies and LC Termies would not be taken any more than they are now. They do NOT fill the same role as TH/SS Termies. The TH/SS role is much more relevant in the current meta, which is why you see them more.

Tac termi's have issues in that they're a confused unit that had most of what made them work removed in the changeover from 2nd to 3rd edition (powerfists didn't reduce initative, stormbolters were much scarier, they had increased abilities to hit enemies due to getting positive BS modifiers for sophisticated targeting equipment, etc). LC termi's were much beloved last edition, they didn't change much. The problem is that nobody takes them over the 3++sv TH/SS termi's unless they can get Furious Charge and/or are cheaper to counterbalance the survivability, so you don't see them in C:SM armies, though you do see them in BA and BT armies quite often (though more and more BT armies have switched to Tac Termi's since they got FAQ'd to be able to take double 2-shot cheap Cyclones).

On average it takes 90 BS4 bolter shots to kill a 5man terminator squad of any sort.

90 yes, sorry, bad math on my part.

It takes the same number of shots to kill a 10 Man Tactical Squad. What's your point?

The tac squad will more reliably however take casualties in general and doesn't hit as hard. Most people also don't rely on pure volume of fire for always dealing with tac squads, between ordnance weapons, plasma weaponry, powerweapons, armies often pack a large number of weapons that are designed to engage such units in a such a way as to negate their armor save, *because* they are so resistant to high AP fire.

If you think that dumping AP2 shots into TH/SS Termies is the "easy" way to kill them then no wonder you think they need to be more expensive. You are playing into their strength. They are DESIGNED to be durable against AP2 shots and PWs.

I'm not saying it's the easy way to kill them. I'm saying they still die easier to AP2 fire than bolter fire, I'm not saying can routinely get the same volume of fire to make it worth it.

And that's the problem. There is no easy way to kill them. They're too resistant to enemy fire/attacks in general. That's what makes them such a mindlessly easy to use and popular unit. They make the one reliable method of engaging 2+sv units unreliable.

As long as that is the case, if TH/SS terminators are the same cost as LC/Tac termi's, if the TH/SS termi's can just waltz through defenses that would stop other terminators for the same cost, then they will be the default choice.

They are NOT a default unit. That's what I don't understand, I guess. You don't see them in even a majority of lists.

Again, aside from gunline/theme lists, my experience is very much that you do see them in the majority of lists that don't fall under those previously aforementioned types.

I can understand that you feel they are the default assault unit for SM, and I would agree there. However, that is because the other options suck, plain and simple. Nerfing TH/SS Termies isn't going to fix that. It's just going to push all Space Marine lists into shooty, MSU builds if they want to be effective.

That could be a potential side effect, but at the same time, at any point TH/SS termi's are getting changed, so likely is other stuff in the book. Either way, TH/SS terminators are too effective for their cost, and there are other assault units in the book that really aren't as bad as people make them out to be, and they shouldn't be an excuse for TH/SS terminators not getting a cost increase they truly should have.

Vaktathi wrote:And that's the problem. There is no easy way to kill them. They're too resistant to enemy fire/attacks in general. That's what makes them such a mindlessly easy to use and popular unit. They make the one reliable method of engaging 2+sv units unreliable.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I kill TH/SS Termies quite effectively with good, old-fashioned bolters. They might eat a sacrificial squad before they go down, but generally they die at a rate fitting of their points cost.

Again, aside from gunline/theme lists, my experience is very much that you do see them in the majority of lists that don't fall under those previously aforementioned types.

I guess I don't understand what you are saying here. If an SM list isn't a shooty list, it has TH/SS Termies? Agreed.... Because they are the only cost effective assault unit in the Vanilla SM book. I already mentioned why I think the other options are bad, so I am just going to say that TH/SS have a role that fits the meta. LC Termies, VGVs, and Honorguard do not. But majority of effective SM lists veer towards the shooty side, anyway.

What types of effective SM lists are there? You can run a MSU gunline, Drop Pods, Bikes, Vulcan (with or without TH/SS Termies), a "Battleforce" list (e.g. Ben Mohlie), or the occasional double-rock list (which is really not all that effective). Very few of those utilize TH/SS Termies.

That could be a potential side effect, but at the same time, at any point TH/SS termi's are getting changed, so likely is other stuff in the book. Either way, TH/SS terminators are too effective for their cost, and there are other assault units in the book that really aren't as bad as people make them out to be, and they shouldn't be an excuse for TH/SS terminators not getting a cost increase they truly should have.

While I disagree that TH/SS are "too effective" for their points cost, I would be fine with the price being increased so long as other components of the SM book were made viable. As a standalone "nerf them now" option, with no other adjustments... there just isn't any point. You are simply removing options from a book that is already showing its age.

Gornall wrote:While I disagree that TH/SS are "too effective" for their points cost, I would be fine with the price being increased so long as other components of the SM book were made viable. As a standalone "nerf them now" option, with no other adjustments... there just isn't any point. You are simply removing options from a book that is already showing its age.

I already mentioned this suggestion in the previous page. The best approach IMO would be a “significant” points increase for TH/SS alongside a “significant” points decrease for Vanguard Veterans and Honour Guard.

candy.man wrote:I already mentioned this suggestion in the previous page. The best approach IMO would be a “significant” points increase for TH/SS alongside a “significant” points decrease for Vanguard Veterans and Honour Guard.

Points are only a small part of the equation. If you do not give those units useful roles or niches that mesh with the meta, then it wouldn't solve the problem.

I think your getting a little side tracked here. You’ll have to admit defeat here in the sense that the codex is never going to have 100% perfect external balance without also overhauling all codices and the rulesets simultaneously. The best we can do is fix specific balance issues within codices and TH/SS is one of them.

The units mentioned in my earlier post already have roles and niches. There’s nothing wrong with Vanguard and Honour Guard aside for the 4th Edition point costing that was used on them (especially compared to the ridiculous point costing used for the GK book). Also, as Vaktathi has already mentioned, part of the reason why no one uses these units is because TH/SS are far cheaper and more cost effective which in turn, is actually the side effect of inconsistent point costing.

I think we should move on from “philosophical discussions” as this isn’t the forums to do so. This is a proposed rules forums so we should move onto actually proposing rules and discussing balance. Anyone who doesn’t want to propose or discuss proposed rules should leave this thread. I’ll start:

Assault Terminators
• Base point cost reduced to 30pts
• Base Wargear changed to Power weapon and Storm Bolter.
• May Swap a power weapon for a lightning claw or thunder hammer for 10pts
• May swap Stormbolter for a Storm Shield for 10pts
• May swap power weapon and storm bolter with twin lightning claws for 10pts.

Balance Analysis:
• Players are still able to purchase a cheap SS based tarpit unit at 40pts per model.
• TH/SS as a combination has been suitably increased in pts.
• Unit now has greater wargear flexibility.

Someone else can suggest the amendments to Vanguard and Honour Guard as I don’t have my codex on me.

VV need to have Jump Packs standard with option to swap them for a free Rhino/Drop Pod OR they need a good 10 point decrease.

What kills Vanguard for me is the price of their upgrades including the price of the jump pack upgrade (they pay through the nose for all their upgrades and have no way to compete with the cost effectiveness of 40pt TH/SS).

Using Grey Templar’s great suggestion, I propose the following for Vanguard:

• Jump packs included in base wargear with option to swap for Free Rhino/Drop Pod
• Price of all Vanguard CC upgrades reduced by around 2-5pts.

This is better! Now we are actually talking about how we could change the rules not arguing about them.
I like your idea about the Terminators Candy.Man, it makes more sense.

I think that Honour Guard/Command Squads should have access to jump packs, and that VGVs should cost a couple of points more but come with jump packs

candy.man wrote:Assault Terminators
• Base point cost reduced to 30pts
• Base Wargear changed to Power weapon and Storm Bolter.
• May Swap a power weapon for a lightning claw or thunder hammer for 10pts
• May swap Stormbolter for a Storm Shield for 10pts
• May swap power weapon and storm bolter with twin lightning claws for 10pts.

Balance Analysis:
• Players are still able to purchase a cheap SS based tarpit unit at 40pts per model.
• TH/SS as a combination has been suitably increased in pts.
• Unit now has greater wargear flexibility.

Someone else can suggest the amendments to Vanguard and Honour Guard as I don’t have my codex on me.

I like it, but I think they need an option to buy a PF for 5 points and a chainfist for 10 points. Honorguard either need an invulnerable save, a higher WS, or higher I.

I agree with Gornall, Honour Guard should be bumped up to WS 5

WS5 sounds like a nice tweak for honour guard. It would give them the small boost that they need.

The issue here is that Power Weapons are arguably better than PFists/TH. It's at-initiative ignoring armour, which, with Init 4, means they're completely chewing through most things.

Keep the points at 40 standard (which is the standard for TEq units) and leave them their PFist. THammer should be either a free swap or 1 or 2 point upgrade, with the SS being a 5 or 10 point upgrade.

Honestly I would rather have power weapons than powerfists for my Terminators

redkommando wrote:Honestly I would rather have power weapons than powerfists for my Terminators

^ Agree 100% This is one thing I really like about Chaos Space Marines (but I would like to see their weapon options be expanded)

This is one thing I really like about Chaos Space Marines (but I would like to see their weapon options be expanded)

If you could choose, what weapon options would you give to them?

redkommando wrote:Honestly I would rather have power weapons than powerfists for my Terminators

Yeah... but you still need the option to have PFs anyway, if for no other reason than most Terminators already out there are built with them. If they were a free swap that would be even better, but paying 5 points wouldn't be unreasonable. And Chainfists are much better heavy vehicle/walker killers than THs, so are another needed option.

Honorguard would be great if they were WS5 and could be taken by Captains or Librarians. Force Dome really helps them out, but it's pretty hard to fit a Chapter Master, a Libby, and Honorguard in the same list without it being a large, yet fragile rock. (Not a Fraggle Rock, though.)

Honorguard would be great if they were WS5 and could be taken by Captains or Librarians. Force Dome really helps them out, but it's pretty hard to fit a Chapter Master, a Libby, and Honorguard in the same list without it being a large, yet fragile rock. (Not a Fraggle Rock, though.)

I think Command Squads should be able to be taken by Captains, Librarians and Chaplains. I understand the fact Honour Guards only being taken by Chapter Masters, because the were created to protect him.

As an aside, I don't get why the Chapter Champion can replace his Bolter with a Combat Blade, be cause he already has a Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol, so he doesn't get any benefit from swapping the Bolter.

Would people pay 150pts for VGVs if the already came with Jump Packs, considering they are 125pts now??

redkommando wrote:I think Command Squads should be able to be taken by Captains, Librarians and Chaplains. I understand the fact Honour Guards only being taken by Chapter Masters, because the were created to protect him.

Agreed about the Command Squads. However, I thought the role of the Honorguard was to protect the Banner as much as the Chapter Master. I could be wrong about that though. While fluff-wise it might make sense to have them only allowed with Chapter Masters, but gamewise they require a medicore character to unlock, so they really should have a slight points reduction.

redkommando wrote:

Honorguard would be great if they were WS5 and could be taken by Captains or Librarians. Force Dome really helps them out, but it's pretty hard to fit a Chapter Master, a Libby, and Honorguard in the same list without it being a large, yet fragile rock. (Not a Fraggle Rock, though.)

I think Command Squads should be able to be taken by Captains, Librarians and Chaplains. I understand the fact Honour Guards only being taken by Chapter Masters, because the were created to protect him.

As an aside, I don't get why the Chapter Champion can replace his Bolter with a Combat Blade, be cause he already has a Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol, so he doesn't get any benefit from swapping the Bolter.

Would people pay 150pts for VGVs if the already came with Jump Packs, considering they are 125pts now??

No, I'd pay for them if they cost the same as Sternguard base, and cost the same as Sternguard with 10 men, since they don't get special ammo and instead get Jump Packs.

With slightly cheaper wargear options, too.

No, I'd pay for them if they cost the same as Sternguard base, and cost the same as Sternguard with 10 men, since they don't get special ammo and instead get Jump Packs.

With slightly cheaper wargear options, too.

So still 125pts but they come with Jump packs?
Yea fair call, that would be good

TBH, the problem with hammernators is that they are the only unit that really lacks a weakness. Paladins die to Vindicators, Guardsmen die to flamers, Terminators die to plasma, but how do you kill hammernators?

Those that whine about them having to take an expensive transport, well, ever heard of deep strike?

Footslogging works too, I should know, I used to play Orks.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Those that whine about them having to take an expensive transport, well, ever heard of deep strike?

But then they can't assault out of deep strike, making them one hell of a bullet magnet for a turn. We all know that a high volume of fire will take them down eventually.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:TBH, the problem with hammernators is that they are the only unit that really lacks a weakness. Paladins die to Vindicators, Guardsmen die to flamers, Terminators die to plasma, but how do you kill hammernators?

Those that whine about them having to take an expensive transport, well, ever heard of deep strike?

Footslogging works too, I should know, I used to play Orks.

Now I think I understand why you are whining about the storm shields. You kill the Hammernators the same way you kill normal termies, with volume of fire/attacks. If you used to play Orks I find it quite depressing that you do not know how much hamernators sucks against normal boyz.

As for the deep strik comment, are you serious? You want to depstrike the squad, then be forced to not assault for a turn and in the next turn youll have a 12" threat range... Yeah I think Ill pass on that tactic...

I don't see a problem with the current TH/SS setup with terminators. The 3++ save negates the loss of the extra attack gained by the PF, however no ranged attacks are possible. So it comes down to if you want survivability, ranged, or attacks. Each have there advantages and disadvantages. SS can be easily be countered with a barrage of ranged attacks, and even CC if all the terminators can be wiped out before their assault turn.

I don't see a problem with the current TH/SS setup with terminators. The 3++ save negates the loss of the extra attack gained by the PF, however no ranged attacks are possible. So it comes down to if you want survivability, ranged, or attacks. Each have there advantages and disadvantages. SS can be easily be countered with a barrage of ranged attacks, and even CC if all the terminators can be wiped out before their assault turn.

Um. . . PFs don't grant an extra attack, TH/SS and shooty Terminators have the same amount of attacks.

But your last statement is true, Iv'e killed a squad of 8 Deathwing Terminators with TH/SS in one turn with a squad of Death Company with CCW and Bolt Pistols