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BeRzErKeR wrote:
All right, then allow me to rephrase; in my experience, based on playing games against codex Marines with Orks (several dozen times, at least) and CSM (a few times), as well as playing (very few) games as codex marines myself, neither vanguard veterans nor assault marines are anything like effective as assault units, certainly not effective enough to be worth their points cost. Assault Marines do NOT do fine against 'other reasonable assault units'; they barely win combat against plain old Ork Boyz, even when charging, and Ork Boyz are anything but a deathstar.

Really? As an ork player myself, I find that a unit of assault marines is something I don't want to fight with a unit of boyz, because, although I might eventually triumph, I'll be brought below combat effectiveness for the rest of the game. Run as I usually see them run, they're carrying a couple of flamers, which makes a mess of things to begin with, and outside of abnormal rolling, even without initial flamer attacks, they're going to win the first round of combat, adding in no-retreat wounds. On top of that, they cost less than a unit of 30 boyz.

Here's something I learned once that typically holds true; given units of similar nature, if you want to destroy one with minimal impact on the return, you need to hit it with three times the points. For assault marines vs boyz, they will absolutely destroy a unit of 10 boyz. Or 3 units of assault marines will wipe out one 30-man squad.

They're not a god unit, but they're perfectly reasonable at what they do, for the points they cost. What's more, add a force multiplier, like a chaplain, and they get even better.

'Overpriced', 'underpriced' and 'reasonably priced' are entirely relative terms. Easily half the armies in the game get better units that do the same job for less points; that makes Space Marines overpriced.

Really? Care to provide examples? Cause I can't think of more than maybe one codex that gets a unit that does what TH/SS terminators do for less points.

Changing one army to correct the relative expense is easier and, I would say, better for game balance than changing six or seven other army books to stay in balance with it. That's what I mean when I say 'overpriced'; they are at a relative disadvantage against a majority of competing armies, because the balance of the game has changed.

So you're comparing vanilla marines to just the books released after them, and assuming that codex creep is a good thing and that vanilla marines should be buffed, rather than the later books being reduced. I think there are more books that need buffing more than vanilla marines in that case, that have gone longer without updates.

Clearly it isn't, since nobody takes {Normal terminators}. According to the only measure that actually matters, 40 points is too much to pay for a model with a 2+/5++, power fist, and storm bolter.

Incorrect conclusion. You cannot claim that people don't take shooty terminators because they're overpriced when there is an underpriced alternative available. People don't take shooty terminators because TH/SS terminators are better. People would still take TH/SS terminators at 50 points/model because they fulfill a vital role in the army. But, at 50ppm for TH/SS terminators, some people would look to normal terminators to save a few points.

Redbeard wrote:
Given that 200 points of TH/SS terminators can handle their own against 500 points of deathstar units, like nob bikers, I'd call that cheap.

If you are walking 5 Assault Terminators, and I am running a 500-point unit of Nob Bikers, I guarantee that the two units will NEVER engage in close combat unless I've already killed 3 of those Termies with shooting.

So I can set up a firebase with my th/ss terminators out of sight, and you won't come near me because my counter-assault unit scares you. Good for me, I reckon.

I don't 'know' anything. I am speaking from my own experience. I'll be the first to admit that I have not played against many top tournament players, and I can only talk about my local area; however, I can say that I'm puzzled as to how ten terminators on foot manage to get into combat without losing at least four or five to shooting on the way in. That's a 400 point footslogging unit, comprised of 10 models with a 2+ save; it might as well be wearing a big 'shoot me' sign.

Well, if you play against good competition, you'll learn how these things work. Sometimes, they just walk right up the middle and count on making enough saves. Sometimes, they're used to draw fire away from other units. If your opponent has other targets, do you use your lascannon on a terminator with a 3++ or do you shoot at an easier target? And, while orks can benefit from volume shooting, not a lot of armies typically field the volume of fire required to drop that many 2+ save guys.

Yes, if you shoot them enough, they go down. What is 'enough', and when you put enough on them, what happens to the rest of your opponent's army?

Codex Marines require much more thought than the majority of the other armies in the game, to achieve a result that is only just as good. That's practically the definition of an inferior army.

Unless you're looking at it the wrong way. Codex marines have all the tools to win all the games. Not all codexes can say that. Most codexes, especially xenos codexes, have bad matchups. They have games they're really hard-pressed to win. Codex Marines may require thought to win every game, but they're in every game, they have very few (probably no) no-win situations. And, in some people's book, that's practically the definition of a good army. Put me in the game and let my skill win it.

So you're comparing vanilla marines to just the books released after them, and assuming that codex creep is a good thing and that vanilla marines should be buffed, rather than the later books being reduced. I think there are more books that need buffing more than vanilla marines in that case, that have gone longer without updates.

Likewise there are many books/units that should be nerfed before Vanilla Marines TH/SS Termies.

Ecstasy in Service wrote:Wait...So I sould only be able to use my shield when the enemy is in my face? if someone is shooting at me I can't block it with my shield? I disagree with this, storm shields should work for both range and combat saves.

I don't see a to change them, as a marine player and from looking at plenty of battle reports, it is easy to see how storm shields are not the most badass things out there. For real, Termis.s are great but can go down just like everything else. Hit them with enough attacks and sooner or later they go down.

I agree that it shouldn't just apply to close combat, but I don't agree with your statement/standing that they aren't a big issue. Look at higher profile tournaments or larger scale tournaments, the one unit you see almost every Marine player running is a Terminator Assault Squad. The thing is you say everything can be killed, well how do you kill something that gets a 2+ save normally and, if that isn't able to be taken, it gets a 3++ save instead?

Do the math a bit here. Let say a five man Terminator Assault Squad is going up against a 10 man Assault Squad. The assault squad gets first round, so they need 4+ to hit. They get 31 attacks on the charge and will hit on a 4+, so there's 16 attacks that hit roughly. Next they have to wound. Same Strength vs Toughness, so again, 4+, so 8 of those 16 attacks get through. Finally we have the saves. For the sake of argument we'll say the Sergeant had a Power Weapon on him and we'll say that two of his attacks got through, so there's 2 power weapon attacks and 6 normal attacks. The Terminator Assault squad gets 2+ saves against the 6 normal attacks, so we'll say 1 fails for the sake of argument. There's one Terminator down. The sergeant's power weapon attacks still have to get past a 3+ save and, odds are, both of the saves are going to be made. So, out of 31 attacks, only one attack managed to kill one Terminator. Now the terminators get to strike back.

8 Thunder Hammer attacks, so 4 will hit (4+ to hit). Next comes the to-wound rolls. Each attack hits at Strength 8, so they need 2+ to wound. Odds are none of those attacks are not going to wound, but for the sake of argument we'll say that one fails to wound. Next, armour saves, except the Assault Squad doesn't get armour saves, so there's 3 dead Assault Marines. Three dead and they both A) Didn't charge and B) struck last still. If the assault squad was really unlucky they were stunned by the Thunder Hammers as well.

Now just imagine that Terminator Assault Squad was 10 Terminators in size and they actually got to charge. Even if they lose one that's 27 Thunder Hammer attacks coming at that Assault Squad. The math doesn't stack up in the assault squad's favor and, odds are, that Assault Squad is dead in the first turn of that assault. Even if you focus fire them odds are you're not going to get many of them unless you have an abundance of plasma cannons or lascannons (or equivalent) weapons on your side of the field.

In the end, Terminator Assault Squads are just too good for their points cost, so good that they make tactical Terminator Squads pretty dull and useless in comparison. Thus, in my opinion, either keep Storm Shields the way they are and increase their points costs (and for Terminator Assault Squads, make the squad pay +5 points per model to upgrade from Lightning Claws to a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield) or, as the original poster said, make them give +1 Invulnerable Save or 5+ invulnerable save.

Redbeard wrote:

Really? As an ork player myself, I find that a unit of assault marines is something I don't want to fight with a unit of boyz, because, although I might eventually triumph, I'll be brought below combat effectiveness for the rest of the game. Run as I usually see them run, they're carrying a couple of flamers, which makes a mess of things to begin with, and outside of abnormal rolling, even without initial flamer attacks, they're going to win the first round of combat, adding in no-retreat wounds. On top of that, they cost less than a unit of 30 boyz.

Here's something I learned once that typically holds true; given units of similar nature, if you want to destroy one with minimal impact on the return, you need to hit it with three times the points. For assault marines vs boyz, they will absolutely destroy a unit of 10 boyz. Or 3 units of assault marines will wipe out one 30-man squad.

They're not a god unit, but they're perfectly reasonable at what they do, for the points they cost. What's more, add a force multiplier, like a chaplain, and they get even better.

All this is true; but now you're not talking about assault marines. You're talking about assault marines with 2 flamers and potentially a chaplain, which is a very different kettle of fish. I would certainly expect a 355-point unit to beat up on a squad of Ork Boyz, and they do; but they still take painful casualties doing it.

If in your experience Assault Marines only die 'eventually' to boyz, that's very different from what I've seen. If a tooled-squad with a Chaplain gets the charge, they basically wipe the boyz out in one round; if the unit is any weaker than that or if they get charged, they're all dead by round 3, and the Boyz are still above half-strength unless my dice hate me that day. Without the flamers, 10 Assault Marines with PF Sergeant (charging) win the first round against 30 Boyz with PK Nob, and then the survivors die on the second round. WITH the flamers, yes, they'll win the first round. . . but they'll still all be dead by the end of the third. This is all with strictly average rolling. With flamers and a chaplain, they win the combat pretty handily, but now you've got a 300+-point deathstar unit that just wiped out a single squad of boys (taking 3-4 casualties in the process), and is just begging to be lit up with shoota fire and counter-charged. They need a little luck to survive even one round of the ensuing combat, and the total result is that a squad of boyz has been traded for a much more expensive squad of Space Marines, including an HQ unit. I'll take that trade, happily.

Assault Marines are highly situational, in short. They only work when they've taken a lot of expensive options, and have a weak target they can pick on with no friends close enough to kill them immediately afterwards. If there's two units close together, they're dead meat, and if the unit is any stronger than Ork Boyz they're dead meat. That's pretty sad for an assault unit.

Redbeard wrote:
Really? Care to provide examples? Cause I can't think of more than maybe one codex that gets a unit that does what TH/SS terminators do for less points.

I was actually referring to Assault Marines, Devastators, Tactical Marines, and Vanguard Veterans. TH/SS Terminators are, indeed, just about the only unit in the codex that is competitive against similar units in other codexes.

Examples for the other units; Ork Boyz do everything either Tactical or Assault Marines do better, or cheaper, or both, with the sole exception of killing tanks with meltabombs (and Marines are rubbish at that anyway). Plague Marines or indeed basic CSM make Tactical Marines look quite pathetic by comparison. Obliterators are better Devastators than Devastators are, while Havocs can do anything they can do for the same price and also have special weapon options, so they can be kitted out to serve other roles as well; for that matter, Lootas are more effective against many targets, and just about the same price. Khorne Berzerkers are Assault Marines who have traded a little mobility for the ability to be much, much better at their job, and can take a transport to nullify that small advantage anyway. Vanguard Veterans quite frankly pale as assault troops in comparison to Nobz (Biker or Battlewagon-mounted, as you please), Chaos Terminators, winged Daemon Princes, or (once again) plain old Ork Boyz.

Redbeard wrote:
So you're comparing vanilla marines to just the books released after them, and assuming that codex creep is a good thing and that vanilla marines should be buffed, rather than the later books being reduced. I think there are more books that need buffing more than vanilla marines in that case, that have gone longer without updates.

I am not assuming it's a GOOD thing. I am assuming that it's a thing which exists, and it has to be compensated for. Downgrading Codex Marines is simply ignoring the fact that a downgrade is the last thing they need. If other codexes start being brought down in power, you may have a point with this; since I don't see that happening anytime in the near future, I'm not looking to make Codex Marines any worse than they already are.

The fact that other books exist which ALSO need buffing does not negate the fact that Codex Marines could use a little of it.

Redbeard wrote:
Incorrect conclusion. You cannot claim that people don't take shooty terminators because they're overpriced when there is an underpriced alternative available. People don't take shooty terminators because TH/SS terminators are better. People would still take TH/SS terminators at 50 points/model because they fulfill a vital role in the army. But, at 50ppm for TH/SS terminators, some people would look to normal terminators to save a few points.

I can certainly make this claim, when there is a nearly-identical unit in another army (CSM Terminators) which have the option for the same configuration at the same price but WITHOUT the competition provided by the allegedly-underpriced TH/SS Terminators, and still are never taken. And this is in an army that is widely considered uncompetitive; if PF/bolter Terminators were a viable option at their points cost, I would think I'd see lots of them being run in CSM armies, and I don't. Do you?

Redbeard wrote:
So I can set up a firebase with my th/ss terminators out of sight, and you won't come near me because my counter-assault unit scares you. Good for me, I reckon.

No; it just means that before I assault the Terminators I'll shoot them with 8 twin-linked Dakkagunz from the Nobz (killing one) and a nearby unit of Shoota Boyz (killing another 1-2). Or I'll run them over with a Deffrolla Battlewagon once or twice, lock them up with boyz, and kill the Devastators or whatever you have shooting with the Nobz. The assault range of footslogging Terminators is so short that they simply have no power to decide what they want to kill; they just have to put up with fighting whatever wants to attack them. That's a recipe for defeat.

Redbeard wrote:
Well, if you play against good competition, you'll learn how these things work. Sometimes, they just walk right up the middle and count on making enough saves. Sometimes, they're used to draw fire away from other units. If your opponent has other targets, do you use your lascannon on a terminator with a 3++ or do you shoot at an easier target? And, while orks can benefit from volume shooting, not a lot of armies typically field the volume of fire required to drop that many 2+ save guys.

Yes, if you shoot them enough, they go down. What is 'enough', and when you put enough on them, what happens to the rest of your opponent's army?

One 20-strong squad of Boyz is enough as Orks, or one plasma-armed squad of Plague Marines as CSM. One or two turns of shooting, then Waaagh and charge in with the boyz; move into 12" range in a Rhino and light them up with plasma + TL bolter + havoc launcher with the Plagues, then drop a squad's worth of shooting into them once they wreck the Rhino (or get out and do so if they don't) and dare them to charge. If they do, they're tied up for at least 2 more turns and probably at half strength or less by the time they finally wipe the Plagues out; if they don't, then I get to follow them and keep shooting as they walk slowly past. Either way, they are no longer dangerous. Foot termies can be neutralized by a single, far less valuable unit.

Redbeard wrote:
Unless you're looking at it the wrong way. Codex marines have all the tools to win all the games. Not all codexes can say that. Most codexes, especially xenos codexes, have bad matchups. They have games they're really hard-pressed to win. Codex Marines may require thought to win every game, but they're in every game, they have very few (probably no) no-win situations. And, in some people's book, that's practically the definition of a good army. Put me in the game and let my skill win it.

I agree they have all the tools; but their tools are more expensive than most other armies', which means that they have fewer tools for dealing with any given thing. It's quite easy to be caught out without the right tool for the job, with Codex Marines; green tide Orks, for example, tend to catch them somewhat off-balance, because if they prepare for that they don't have enough points to adequately prepare for the more standard mech-heavy MEQ armies.

And increasing the points cost on their only truly viable close-combat unit will only make that effect worse.

Hmm... your "proof" is that an Assault Squad (which is a pretty "meh" unit) gets rolled by 10 TH/SS Termies? Oh noes!

Focus fire isn't that hard. It takes around 30 bolter wounds to drop 5 TH/SS Termies. It's not like they are BA TH/SS.

And I actually don't see TH/SS as any more of an autoinclude than Rifleman Dreads, Dakka Preds, Typhoon Landspeeders, or MM ABs. They are ALL solid units, but you can still make an effective list without them.

30 bolter wounds is 100 shots at BS4 vs TEQ just sayin.

Redbeard wrote:d6 systems do limit slight variation, but point costs can adjust for that.

It's not hard to see that TH/SS is too good. No one takes normal terminators, and no one takes lightning claw terminators.

I have no issue leaving them with a 3++, but they should be priced accordingly. A 3++ is really useful - clearly moreso than either 2 S4 shots, or re-rollable wounds. It should cost more.

Maybe you are ill informed. The good players don't really take Assault Terminators nowadays, just like they don't take Land Raiders anymore. Assault Terms. lack duality, and therefore they are not as awesome as what you think they are.
They are only good when you are playing against average players, who throw Nobs, Marines, or anything that is expensive but hav poor invul save against them. They are (ONLY) fantastic for what they were designed to do - roll over Deathstars. But that's what most things in 40k is about.

Redbeard wrote:
Given that 200 points of TH/SS terminators can handle their own against 500 points of deathstar units, like nob bikers, I'd call that cheap.

This comment alone shows that you have a very distorted view of 40k in general. There are alot of other units in 40k that will appear VERY CHEAP if you compare point efficiency that way.

A squad of 20 boys on the charge kills on average 3 Assault Termis (rounded down). Assuming the 2 terminators strike back with charge bonus, they kill only 3 orks (rounded up). And those boys cost less than the squad of 5 Terminators.

The above is just one (out of many) simple illustration that Assault Termis are ONLY good at what they were designed to do, and are pretty meh at anything else. They lack DUALITY. And units that are like that are NOT cost efficient.

And let me give you yet another example. 3 Meganobs differently equipped cost 130 points. They can take on 24 Grey Hunters that cost 360 points and probably still win combat.
Assuming both sides get the charge :-
24 GHs = 72 attacks, 18 wounds, 3 failed saves.
3 Meganobs = 8-12 attacks (depending on whether a single MANz failed 2 saves in a row), 3-5 wounds, 3-5 dead.

360 is almost 3 times 130. Does that make MegaNobs utterly AWESOME? I don't think so.

Only 90. And that's not that hard to do. For the price of the Termies you can almost have two full squads of Tacticals in Razors. Assume 1-2 rounds of 24" fire and then one round of Rapid Fire (if you don't run away) and that massive blob of Termies is pretty chewed up. There are much better examples, but I figured regular Tacticals would demonstrate the point without stacking the deck.

Gornall wrote:Only 90. And that's not that hard to do. For the price of the Termies you can almost have two full squads of Tacticals in Razors. Assume 1-2 rounds of 24" fire and then one round of Rapid Fire (if you don't run away) and that massive blob of Termies is pretty chewed up. There are much better examples, but I figured regular Tacticals would demonstrate the point without stacking the deck.

And that's how many points you're throwing against 200pts of terminators? ~400+?

Vaktathi wrote:

Gornall wrote:Only 90. And that's not that hard to do. For the price of the Termies you can almost have two full squads of Tacticals in Razors. Assume 1-2 rounds of 24" fire and then one round of Rapid Fire (if you don't run away) and that massive blob of Termies is pretty chewed up. There are much better examples, but I figured regular Tacticals would demonstrate the point without stacking the deck.

And that's how many points you're throwing against 200pts of terminators? ~400+?

Well, the points is, his tactical marines probably don't have anything else to do anyway (besides capturing objective). So his tac. marines are actually not "wasted" in this case.

Isseyfaran wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Gornall wrote:Only 90. And that's not that hard to do. For the price of the Termies you can almost have two full squads of Tacticals in Razors. Assume 1-2 rounds of 24" fire and then one round of Rapid Fire (if you don't run away) and that massive blob of Termies is pretty chewed up. There are much better examples, but I figured regular Tacticals would demonstrate the point without stacking the deck.

And that's how many points you're throwing against 200pts of terminators? ~400+?

Well, the points is, his tactical marines probably don't have anything else to do anyway (besides capturing objective). So his tac. marines are actually not "wasted" in this case.

Either way, you're still talking about twice as many points taking several turns to down said unit, which isn't a terribly effective way of engaging them.

Vaktathi wrote:

Isseyfaran wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Gornall wrote:Only 90. And that's not that hard to do. For the price of the Termies you can almost have two full squads of Tacticals in Razors. Assume 1-2 rounds of 24" fire and then one round of Rapid Fire (if you don't run away) and that massive blob of Termies is pretty chewed up. There are much better examples, but I figured regular Tacticals would demonstrate the point without stacking the deck.

And that's how many points you're throwing against 200pts of terminators? ~400+?

Well, the points is, his tactical marines probably don't have anything else to do anyway (besides capturing objective). So his tac. marines are actually not "wasted" in this case.

Either way, you're still talking about twice as many points taking several turns to down said unit, which isn't a terribly effective way of engaging them.

Point is the tac marines were'nt even taken in the list so that they could kill terminators. They were taken because they were needed for other roles. Directing them to shoot at the terminators (IF they have nothing better to do at that time) was just a bonus. No one is RELYING on the tac marines to deal with the terminators.

But this is not the case for assault terminators. At 200 points a squad, they are useless unless they have a deathstar unit in the vicinity for them to kill. They are pretty much useful for only a single purpose.

Compare this to a squad of 20-30 shoota boys who can capture objectives, force saves on infantry at a distance, bubble wrap/tarpit, or charge into a squad of assault terminators.

TH/SS termi's are useful for so much more than deathstar termination. Have you ever seen one roll into the flank of an IG mech gunline? They can take the hits, survive, multi-assault several vehicles, and clear a flank fairly quickly. There's nothing better SM's have for dealing with MC's or tough killy IC's, and against *any* 3+/2+sv unit that isn't sporting some serious CC power of it's own, they'll destroy it.

I'm shocked by the sheer amount of replies to this thread, but here is more of my opinion.

Yes, TH/SS termies are an anti-deathstar unit.
And why? Why should CSM not have any anti-deathstar units? We are the only MEQ without SS.
Never, ever, complain about LR. Chaos LR get, for practically the same amount of points, a much worse tank.

SS are overpowered/underpriced. To those that defend the SS/TH termies, tell me: if you simply made a competetive list, and decided to take a termie unit, which unit would you take?

Lower it to +1 invuln, and problem is solved.

People seriously still have issues with TH/SS or storm shields at all? When have they ever won any major tournament? Also why does every Chaos player expect their army to be Codex: Marines + more evil stuff. Sure you can have SS I'd also like all the cool gimmicks your army has too. Than we can all be nice and homogenized.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
All this is true; but now you're not talking about assault marines. You're talking about assault marines with 2 flamers and potentially a chaplain, which is a very different kettle of fish. I would certainly expect a 355-point unit to beat up on a squad of Ork Boyz, and they do; but they still take painful casualties doing it.

I mentioned the chaplain because people often run them that way. Flamers are part of the unit - they're no different than drawing a distinction between ork boyz and ork boyz with a nob. And, with the flamers, they still cost less than 30 boyz+ nob, and still beat that unit.

What's more - yes, I expect a fight between two reasonably decent assault units of roughly the same point cost to result in one unit being destroyed, and the other being crippled. That's the nature of equal-point fights.

I can certainly make this claim, when there is a nearly-identical unit in another army (CSM Terminators) which have the option for the same configuration at the same price but WITHOUT the competition provided by the allegedly-underpriced TH/SS Terminators, and still are never taken. And this is in an army that is widely considered uncompetitive; if PF/bolter Terminators were a viable option at their points cost, I would think I'd see lots of them being run in CSM armies, and I don't. Do you?

Chaos shooty terminators pale in comparison to loyalist ones. Combi-bolters are not as good as storm bolters, and they lack the decent shooting options (assault cannons, missile launchers) that loyalists can take. 5 loyalist terminators can move&shoot with a threat radius of 30", firing 8 stormbolter and 4 assault cannon shots a turn, while providing a measure of counter-assault capability to their army. Chaos terminators get 4 bolter shots and 2 autocannon shots, half the damage output, and without the rending weapon. Points don't enter into it, chaos terminators cannot serve the same role that loyalist ones can, they don't have the right weapons.

No; it just means that before I assault the Terminators I'll shoot them with 8 twin-linked Dakkagunz from the Nobz (killing one) and a nearby unit of Shoota Boyz (killing another 1-2). Or I'll run them over with a Deffrolla Battlewagon once or twice, lock them up with boyz, and kill the Devastators or whatever you have shooting with the Nobz. The assault range of footslogging Terminators is so short that they simply have no power to decide what they want to kill; they just have to put up with fighting whatever wants to attack them. That's a recipe for defeat.

No, it's a recipe for using tactics to pick your fights or scare you away. Did you miss the part about putting them out of line-of-sight?

One 20-strong squad of Boyz is enough as Orks, or one plasma-armed squad of Plague Marines as CSM. One or two turns of shooting, then Waaagh and charge in with the boyz; move into 12" range in a Rhino and light them up with plasma + TL bolter + havoc launcher with the Plagues, then drop a squad's worth of shooting into them once they wreck the Rhino (or get out and do so if they don't) and dare them to charge. If they do, they're tied up for at least 2 more turns and probably at half strength or less by the time they finally wipe the Plagues out; if they don't, then I get to follow them and keep shooting as they walk slowly past. Either way, they are no longer dangerous. Foot termies can be neutralized by a single, far less valuable unit.

If you think you're killing 10 foot th/ss guys with 20 ork boyz, you're new. If you think plague marines can do it with a couple shooting rounds, I have to wonder if you've played this game. And, if you're instead taking about 5 terminators, well, they're not "far less valuable" than the units you describe - remember, they're only 200 points. 20 ork boyz (and assuming a PK nob) are nearly that much as well.

Isseyfaran wrote:Maybe you are ill informed. The good players don't really take Assault Terminators nowadays, just like they don't take Land Raiders anymore.

Not what I've seen in tournament write-ups.

The above is just one (out of many) simple illustration that Assault Termis are ONLY good at what they were designed to do, and are pretty meh at anything else. They lack DUALITY. And units that are like that are NOT cost efficient.

If you are fulfilling a vital role in your army (preventing enemy deathstars from rolling you), then it's okay to be good at that and little else. What else is a marine army using to stop thunderwolves/nob bikers/paladins? Maybe only bad players run such units (I don't believe that, but okay, I'll take your word for it), but there are plenty of bad players at tournaments, and you still get matched up with them.

Theduke07 wrote:People seriously still have issues with TH/SS or storm shields at all? When have they ever won any major tournament?

You should check out Ben Mohile's record.

Vaktathi wrote:

Gornall wrote:Only 90. And that's not that hard to do. For the price of the Termies you can almost have two full squads of Tacticals in Razors. Assume 1-2 rounds of 24" fire and then one round of Rapid Fire (if you don't run away) and that massive blob of Termies is pretty chewed up. There are much better examples, but I figured regular Tacticals would demonstrate the point without stacking the deck.

And that's how many points you're throwing against 200pts of terminators? ~400+?

Whoops! For some reason I was thinking 10 Termies (hence the 400). In any case, I think the point still stands in that your basic Tactical Marines that most lists take are capable of dropping a 5 Man unit if given enough time. More shooty units will put them down even faster.

@Redbeard: Just because Ben Mohile uses them successfully does NOT make them OP or undercosted. I have seen multiple successful SM lists without TH/SS... probably more than I see with them. Just because a unit is good and can be used in multiple builds doesn't mean it needs the cost jacked up. If we literally saw them in every list (cough Longfangs cough), then there might be something to that. Once again I would argue that they are no more of a must-take/undercosted unit than Dakka Preds, Typhoons, MM ABs, and Riflemen Dreads. The reason you don't see regular Termies taken is NOT because TH/SS are undercosted... it's because shooty Termies are overcosted for their role. Heck... if you took TH/SS out of the Codex completely, I STILL wouldn't take regular Termies. There are too many better shooting options in the codex. TH/SS are just an innocent bystander.

@BrotherHaraldus: CSM has several anti-deathstar units such as Oblits, Lash Princes (keep lashing them away), and even Abaddy. Don't get me wrong... CSM needs some love, but I don't think increasing the cost of TH/SS Termies is going to magically make them more competitive.

@Theduke07: This.

For contrast, see the Black Templars TH/SS Terminators. They're the best in the game and people still take Tactical Terminators more often in competitive lists. Those 2 weapons at 5 dudes really helps, especially considering we get tank hunters. I rhus don't believe that TH/SS OR Tac Termies need a price change, but rather that Tac Termies need something to incease their oomph.

Gornall wrote:
@Redbeard: Just because Ben Mohile uses them successfully does NOT make them OP or undercosted.

You're right. It does, however, serve as a counter to those who say "it can't be OP if it hasn't won a major tournament" (they have), or that good players have stopped using them (they haven't).

Both of those arguments are really bad. There are what, 10 "major" tournaments a year, give or take. So that means that at most, ten lists won a major tournament in a given year. And the argument being presented is that if something wasn't in one of those lists, it cannot be overpowered. Or perhaps that it's just not competitive at all because it hasn't won a major tournament?

What about coming in second place? What about a consecutive string of top-ten finishes without actually taking it all? Are these armies not also good?

The reason you don't see regular Termies taken is NOT because TH/SS are undercosted... it's because shooty Termies are overcosted for their role. Heck... if you took TH/SS out of the Codex completely, I STILL wouldn't take regular Termies. There are too many better shooting options in the codex. TH/SS are just an innocent bystander.

Well, that's one opinion. I think a lot of the view of over or undercosted comes from what people are comparing them to. Are you comparing them to Grey Knights or to Eldar? Or to other marines? 200 points of TH/SS guys will own 200 points of Paladins, given typical rolling. Their strength (invul saves, thunderhammers) match up perfectly against paladins. Those same guys will typically lose to basic ork boyz just through volume of attacks, something the paladins won't be putting out.

I agree that normal terminators fail at the role that assault terminators excel at, namely deathstar defense, and that in the current metagame, deathstar defense is something that needs to be considered. But that's because of the 5th ed metagame forcing people towards either MSU or deathstar armies, and away from more balanced ones. When 6th drops, I think those shooty terminators might find their place again.

Redbeard wrote:

I mentioned the chaplain because people often run them that way. Flamers are part of the unit - they're no different than drawing a distinction between ork boyz and ork boyz with a nob. And, with the flamers, they still cost less than 30 boyz+ nob, and still beat that unit.

What's more - yes, I expect a fight between two reasonably decent assault units of roughly the same point cost to result in one unit being destroyed, and the other being crippled. That's the nature of equal-point fights.

The difference being that the fight only ends with both being crippled if the Assault Marines get the charge (reasonable, since they're a faster unit), and haven't gotten shot up at all on the way in (not particularly reasonable). That's an assumption that I think is unrealistic.

Redbeard wrote:
Chaos shooty terminators pale in comparison to loyalist ones. Combi-bolters are not as good as storm bolters, and they lack the decent shooting options (assault cannons, missile launchers) that loyalists can take. 5 loyalist terminators can move&shoot with a threat radius of 30", firing 8 stormbolter and 4 assault cannon shots a turn, while providing a measure of counter-assault capability to their army. Chaos terminators get 4 bolter shots and 2 autocannon shots, half the damage output, and without the rending weapon. Points don't enter into it, chaos terminators cannot serve the same role that loyalist ones can, they don't have the right weapons.

Fair enough; loyalist terminators can have a little more firepower, in the form of the assault cannon vs. reaper autocannon. TL bolters vs stormbolters is nearly a wash, actually; at the 12-24" range you expect 5 hits from the storm bolters and 4 from the TL bolters, and one extra S4 hit is such a minor increase as to be ignored.

The fact remains that the closest comparable unit is never taken, and neither is the unit itself. I, personally, find that a pretty decent argument that shooty terminators are overcosted.

Redbeard wrote:
No, it's a recipe for using tactics to pick your fights or scare you away. Did you miss the part about putting them out of line-of-sight?

I'm sorry; you can 'use tactics' with any unit, in any situation. The fact that you CAN, with effort, find a use for footslogging Assault Terminators does not make them a good unit. They don't hit hard enough against large units to be worth their price when they cannot pick their battles.

If I need to kill the firebase, for whatever reason, I can even kill it (in the situation we're positing above) from 18" away with the Dakkagunz on my Nob Bikers. They're perfectly fine for dealing with rear AV, or gunning down shooty units. I never have to fight the Assault Terminators unless I WANT to; I get to choose the circumstances of the assault, or at least have a much, much higher degree of influence over it than I do if they're in a Land Raider.

Redbeard wrote:
If you think you're killing 10 foot th/ss guys with 20 ork boyz, you're new. If you think plague marines can do it with a couple shooting rounds, I have to wonder if you've played this game. And, if you're instead taking about 5 terminators, well, they're not "far less valuable" than the units you describe - remember, they're only 200 points. 20 ork boyz (and assuming a PK nob) are nearly that much as well.

Lets do some math.

20 Shoota Boyz kill 1 Terminator per turn of shooting, on average. On the turn in which they charge, they kill 3 with the assault. Two turns of shooting plus a charge has half the unit dead already; the other five swing, kill four Orks, another dies to a Fearless wound, and are locked in combat. The Orks will kill 1-Terminator next round, and lose 3 (two more Fearless wound, but they can take one on the Nob); then kill 1 and lose 3, etc. With strictly average rolling, they grind the Terminators down over 5-6 rounds of combat; by which point the game is over or nearly over. The Terminators MAY win by forcing the Shootas to fall back in one of the later rounds; but even if they do, they've got 2-3 models left and are easy meat for, well, anything. If the Terminator unit has been shot up at all by any other unit, then the fight just ends faster. So, yes; I DO think I can kill 10 TH/SS Terminators with 20 shoota boyz, because I've done it, and the math bears me out. That, by the way, is a 165-point basic Troops unit tarpitting for the entire game and finally crippling or destroying outright a 400-point dedicated assault unit. Tell me again how undercosted TH/SS Terminators are?

As to the Plague Marines; read what I wrote again. I never said the Plagues would wipe out the unit; I said that with only a small amount of maneuvering they are perfectly capable of killing half of them and tying the others up for a couple of turns, effectively taking them out of the fight. It's better to do it with basic CSM, since they're cheaper, but when I play CSM I usually run Plague Marines, so they're what I talked about.

Redbeard wrote:
If you are fulfilling a vital role in your army (preventing enemy deathstars from rolling you), then it's okay to be good at that and little else. What else is a marine army using to stop thunderwolves/nob bikers/paladins? Maybe only bad players run such units (I don't believe that, but okay, I'll take your word for it), but there are plenty of bad players at tournaments, and you still get matched up with them.

Well, that's kind of exactly the point. Even though they are not a particularly overwhelming unit for the cost, TH/SS Terminators are the only way Codex Marines CAN deal with things like that. . . which is exactly why they shouldn't be nerfed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redbeard wrote:

I agree that normal terminators fail at the role that assault terminators excel at, namely deathstar defense, and that in the current metagame, deathstar defense is something that needs to be considered. But that's because of the 5th ed metagame forcing people towards either MSU or deathstar armies, and away from more balanced ones. When 6th drops, I think those shooty terminators might find their place again.

Fair enough; and once 6th Ed rolls around, perhaps that'll be true. But we're discussing 5th Edition, and it isn't true now. Without another viable method of countering deathstars, penalizing TH/SS Termies further just seems odd to me.

Redbeard wrote:

Isseyfaran wrote:Maybe you are ill informed. The good players don't really take Assault Terminators nowadays, just like they don't take Land Raiders anymore.

Not what I've seen in tournament write-ups

WAIT WAIT. You talking about the local mini tournaments around your neighbourhood?

I don't see Assault Terms in the top placing list in Nova last year. Neither do I see them in Adepticon.
OK maybe I missed something. Give us some links please?

BeRzErKeR wrote:

What's more - yes, I expect a fight between two reasonably decent assault units of roughly the same point cost to result in one unit being destroyed, and the other being crippled. That's the nature of equal-point fights.

The difference being that the fight only ends with both being crippled if the Assault Marines get the charge (reasonable, since they're a faster unit), and haven't gotten shot up at all on the way in (not particularly reasonable). That's an assumption that I think is unrealistic.

I don't. It's factored into their cost. They get jump packs, that pretty much means they get the charge, unless you're factoring in outside elements. But once you start doing that, it's not a straight up comparison of units and their effect based on their points. You want to say the assault marines would be down to 5 guys because your lootas shot them, well, okay, now you're looking at the effect of 500 points of orks on 200 points of marines. It's no longer a reasonable comparison.

The fact remains that the closest comparable unit is never taken, and neither is the unit itself. I, personally, find that a pretty decent argument that shooty terminators are overcosted.

You're still drawing conclusions ignoring factors. Why aren't loyalist terminators taken? It's not the cost. It's that they don't fill a niche like TH/SS terminators do. Why aren't chaos terminators taken? Again, it's not the cost, it's because they can be run more effectively within that codex, fulfilling a niche. (Either deep striking melta, or more-fighty land-raider assaults). You're concluding that they're not taken because of their cost. I'm saying that's not a reasonable conclusion, they're not taken because they don't fill a necessary role in an army, whereas the alternatives do.

I'm sorry; you can 'use tactics' with any unit, in any situation. The fact that you CAN, with effort, find a use for footslogging Assault Terminators does not make them a good unit. They don't hit hard enough against large units to be worth their price when they cannot pick their battles.

Since you've already claimed that you don't get the opportunity to play against good players, and don't have any sort of record to point to any particular skills of your own, I'm simply going to ignore this. I've got a string of top-ten finishes at various GTs. Yes, I can use tactics.

Lets do some math.

20 Shoota Boyz kill 1 Terminator per turn of shooting, on average.

No, 20 shoota boyz kill 3/4s of a terminator, per turn, on average. Which means that there will be turns when you kill 0. And that will happen when it's least convenient for you...

...

Yes, congratulations, you have found a mismatch. Clearly terminators suck because they lose to units that put out volumes of fire rather than quality fire. On the other hand, they can survive several lascannon shots and just keep coming. Neither of these things tells us anything, other than that we've got a unit that excels at handling quality fire and eventually goes down to quantity of fire. If you insist on making comparisons for a unit against it's most obvious counter, it can be proved that every model in the game is overpriced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Isseyfaran wrote:
WAIT WAIT. You talking about the local mini tournaments around your neighbourhood?

I don't see Assault Terms in the top placing list in Nova last year. Neither do I see them in Adepticon.
OK maybe I missed something. Give us some links please?

Cheak out Ben's list from the ETC last year, for example:

PLAYER: Ben Mohlie
ARMY DESCRIPTION: Space Marines

HQ 1: Librarian: Null Zone, Gate of Infinity [100]

Elite 1: 5 Assault Terminators with thunder hammer storm shield [200]
Elite 2: Dreadnought: twin linked auto-cannon(10), twin linked auto-cannon(10) [125]
Elite 3: Dreadnought: Multimelta (free), storm bolter (free) [105]

Troop 1: Tactical Squad
7 marines with bolters, 1 marine with meltagun (5), 1 marine with missile launcher(free), 1 Sgt. with Power fist (25), combi-melta(10) [210] (has transport 1)

Troop 2: Tactical Squad
7 Marines with bolters, 1 marine flamer(free), 1 marine with missile launcher (free) 1 sgt with bolter [170] (has transport 2)

Troop 3: Tactical Squad
7 Marines with bolters, 1 marine flamer(free), 1 marine with missile launcher (free) 1 sgt with bolter [170] (has transport 3)

Fast Attack 1: Land Speeder: (50) heavy bolter (free), typhoon missile launcher (40) [90]

Fast Attack 2: Land Speeder: (50) heavy bolter (free), typhoon missile launcher (40) [90]

Heavy Support 1: Land Raider: extra armor (15), Multi-Melta (10) [275]

Heavy Support 2:Thunderfire Cannon: [100]

Transport 1: Rhino [35]
Transport 2: Rhazorback twin heavy bolters [40]
Transport 3: Rhazorback twin heavy bolters [40]

Total: 1750

He also won WargamesCon with them last year, although I can't be bothered to do your seaches for you. It's out there, use your tools. so, no, not just "my neighborhood."

Vaktathi wrote:

Isseyfaran wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Gornall wrote:Only 90. And that's not that hard to do. For the price of the Termies you can almost have two full squads of Tacticals in Razors. Assume 1-2 rounds of 24" fire and then one round of Rapid Fire (if you don't run away) and that massive blob of Termies is pretty chewed up. There are much better examples, but I figured regular Tacticals would demonstrate the point without stacking the deck.

And that's how many points you're throwing against 200pts of terminators? ~400+?

Well, the points is, his tactical marines probably don't have anything else to do anyway (besides capturing objective). So his tac. marines are actually not "wasted" in this case.

Either way, you're still talking about twice as many points taking several turns to down said unit, which isn't a terribly effective way of engaging them.

So what I am gathering about the ultimate complaint then, as I feel you sum it up, is that TH/SS termies are OP and under costed because you have to dedicate more points to destroy them than the termies cost??

If I am reading this thread correctly, then I would have to say poo poo to your complaints here. There isnt a unit in the game that doesnt normally take more than its points worth of "aggro" to destroy. For what TH/SS termies do, they are just fine. Its a sloooow unit and even with the 2+ 3++ they are vulnerable to the same strategies that takes down any tough unit. Weight of dice, and simply ignoring them. If you took them in a landraider you are going to maximize that unit at maybe 6 models, 5 if you want an hq with them. 5 terminators is hardly scary unless its paladins and draigo XD. But even then, the same tactics apply. Remove the raider, and watch them poke around trying to get within 12 inches of something, or remove the raider and shoot them with plasma and str8+ (because odds are there isnt much else on the table to contend with with that unit)

(This was said with the knowledge of the location and purpose of this thread, just felt like offering my 2 cents)
It takes average of 6 wounds to kill a terminator. 4 if he is being hit with ap2. SO I dont find it at all intimidating to face termies no matter what dex they are from, and mind you I have faced black templar, grey knights, vanilla, space wolves, and blood angels terminators.

So if I may for a minute, I have been a member of this forum for quite awhile now (relative to my meager age of 23) and it still amazes me at the experience and length of time in the hobby alot of the users here possess... and then to see them so up in a tizzy over something as silly as vanilla marines TH/SS termies, a unit that I have NEVER had a problem with.
This thread has a lot of outrage (I would call it anyways) directed at the so called "underpriced" th/ss terminators and how they outclass everything yadda yadda yadda. Now with the tactical acumen (I hope) most of you have, you cannot tell me there are situations where a squad of melee only termies is useless, and a squad of shooty termies with a CML or an assault cannon (my favorite) are priceless. Because I can and I am a noob

So I would like to humbly suggest that we all.... chilax I guess, and rather than complaining about an under-priced unit, that i dont really find underpriced, how bout we discuss tactical counters to th/ss terminators from our differing codex and army build perspectives. Reason being that it is a positive gain, where as complaining about this is just gonna get you upset and get you nowhere, and the noobs reading this (points at self) will receive no further guidance in their trek to becoming Archons, Grand Masters, Cannonesses, Inquisitors, Warbosses, Fire Warrior Commanders, Autarchs and Farseers etc.... /end

Redbeard, I'm not particularly trying to fight with you, or anything. But you're not reading what I'm typing.

Assault Marines are overpriced for what they do. What they do, mostly, is get shot to pieces, and then massacred by any half-decent assault unit. If they get the charge, with an IC attached and a couple flamers to help them out, and they haven't been shot at all - in short, when they are both lucky and expensive - they are capable of wiping out unarmored horde infantry, and doing reasonably well against units with no assault capability whatsoever, like Tactical Squads.

It should be noted that I don't need to dedicate Lootas to shoot Assault Marines. If they're within charge range, they're also within range of the guns of my Shoota Boys. Two of the Marines die to Shoota fire, 3more die in the ensuing assault; now your 355-point unit has lost half it's numbers to a single 165-point squad of Boyz, and there are plenty more around. That, by the way, is including the flamers, assuming 5 hits each.

Shooty Terminators are overpriced for what they do. What they do is plod along, putting out an amount of fire that in no way justifies their cost and dying at a steady rate whenever a few guns are pointed at them. They are an unimpressive unit in a Codex which has a surplus of unimpressive units, and could do with a few less.

Assault Terminators are fairly priced for what they do. What they do is act as a counter-charge and deterrent force to splatter other deathstars, or as a spearhead assault unit to pre-emptively crush something scary before it can eat the squishier marines. They are handicapped in this role by being slow, having only a very expensive transport option, and having few attacks, which is compensated for by their enormous resilience. I do not believe that they need to be made any less attractive then they are; rather, alternative options should be made MORE attractive, because they all suck.

Redbeard wrote:You're still drawing conclusions ignoring factors. Why aren't loyalist terminators taken? It's not the cost. It's that they don't fill a niche like TH/SS terminators do. Why aren't chaos terminators taken? Again, it's not the cost, it's because they can be run more effectively within that codex, fulfilling a niche. (Either deep striking melta, or more-fighty land-raider assaults). You're concluding that they're not taken because of their cost. I'm saying that's not a reasonable conclusion, they're not taken because they don't fill a necessary role in an army, whereas the alternatives do.

That is EXACTLY the conclusion I'm drawing; shooty Terminators are never run because they DO NOTHING MARINES NEED. You can get bolters on Tactical squads, assault cannons on Razorbacks, missile launchers on Land Speeders or Devastators, and all for less points than shooty Terminators with (usually) more mobility. They don't fill any niche, they don't provide any tools that aren't well-provided elsewhere. That's exactly why they could use a buff.

Redbeard wrote:Since you've already claimed that you don't get the opportunity to play against good players, and don't have any sort of record to point to any particular skills of your own, I'm simply going to ignore this. I've got a string of top-ten finishes at various GTs. Yes, I can use tactics.

Please point to the part of my post where I asserted that you were an incompetent player who could not use tactics. Since there isn't one, that might be a bit difficult for you. After that, if you like, you could respond to the point I actually made, which was that the fact that you can manage to find a use for footslogging Assault Terminators does not make them an inherently good, efficient, or effective unit.

Redbeard wrote:
No, 20 shoota boyz kill 3/4s of a terminator, per turn, on average. Which means that there will be turns when you kill 0. And that will happen when it's least convenient for you...

You have done your math wrong. 19 Shoota Boyz (no shoota on the Nob) fire 38 shots. That equals 12 and 2/3rds hits, 6 and 1/3rd wounds, and slightly over one failed 2+ save, on average. Not 3/4.

Redbeard wrote:Yes, congratulations, you have found a mismatch. Clearly terminators suck because they lose to units that put out volumes of fire rather than quality fire. On the other hand, they can survive several lascannon shots and just keep coming. Neither of these things tells us anything, other than that we've got a unit that excels at handling quality fire and eventually goes down to quantity of fire. If you insist on making comparisons for a unit against it's most obvious counter, it can be proved that every model in the game is overpriced.

The mismatch here can be generalized. TH/SS Terminators are very nearly worthless when confronted with cheap units; they only shine when given the opportunity to destroy something valuable and tough. They are a highly specialized unit that is very good at their specialty; that's not a bad thing, but it does mean that their application is quite limited. They don't need to be made worse just because they're very good at the only thing they can do.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
That is EXACTLY the conclusion I'm drawing; shooty Terminators are never run because they DO NOTHING MARINES NEED. You can get bolters on Tactical squads, assault cannons on Razorbacks, missile launchers on Land Speeders or Devastators, and all for less points than shooty Terminators with (usually) more mobility. They don't fill any niche, they don't provide any tools that aren't well-provided elsewhere. That's exactly why they could use a buff.

See, I don't see this as a unit nedeing a buff, I see this as (more) evidence of the skewed nature of the 5th ed metagame. They should have a niche, but as everyone seems to be either meched up or deathstarring, the targets they'd be good against really aren't there. And, because people take the tools to handle much harder units as a matter of course, they're not as resilient as they once were.

Please point to the part of my post where I asserted that you were an incompetent player who could not use tactics.

You didn't claim I was an incompetent player. You claimed that I couldn't use tactics to justify a unit. Well, that's exactly what good players do. They develop tactics that stress the strengths of certain units, while mitigating their weaknesses. And while you may not have seen the ten-man footslogging TH/SS unit kicking butt, I have.

Redbeard wrote:
No, 20 shoota boyz kill 3/4s of a terminator, per turn, on average. Which means that there will be turns when you kill 0. And that will happen when it's least convenient for you...

You have done your math wrong. 19 Shoota Boyz (no shoota on the Nob) fire 38 shots. That equals 12 and 2/3rds hits, 6 and 1/3rd wounds, and slightly over one failed 2+ save, on average. Not 3/4.

Redbeard wrote:

See, I don't see this as a unit nedeing a buff, I see this as (more) evidence of the skewed nature of the 5th ed metagame. They should have a niche, but as everyone seems to be either meched up or deathstarring, the targets they'd be good against really aren't there. And, because people take the tools to handle much harder units as a matter of course, they're not as resilient as they once were.

That's all perfectly true; but you're talking about how you think the game SHOULD be, whereas I'm talking about the way the game IS. As the metagame stands, shooty Terminators just aren't useful enough to justify their points; because of the way vehicle rules interact with shooting and assault rules, a unit that is essentially just a better-armored Tactical squad has no place without something else to set it apart as valuable.

Redbeard wrote:
You didn't claim I was an incompetent player. You claimed that I couldn't use tactics to justify a unit. Well, that's exactly what good players do. They develop tactics that stress the strengths of certain units, while mitigating their weaknesses. And while you may not have seen the ten-man footslogging TH/SS unit kicking butt, I have.

The problem is that we're not discussing Redbeard's Assault Terminators, just Assault Terminators in general. Somewhere out there, there's a CSM player who has done really, really well with Chaos Spawn, because he knows how to use them to maximum effect and has dedicated a significant fraction of his army to ensuring that they get where they need to go, when he needs them. He would make all the same arguments you're making, and rightfully so; but that doesn't make Chaos Spawn a good unit. It just means that HE can use them well.

A bad unit in the hands of a good player is more effective than a good unit in the hands of a bad player. That doesn't say anything about the unit. I don't doubt that you've seen footslogging Assault Termies wrecking things; I don't doubt that you can use them to good effect yourself. But that doesn't mean they're overpowered, or undercosted.

Redbeard wrote:
So I did. My calculator has failed me, you're right. Even still, an average of 1 from shooting isn't a guaranteed thing, I've played orks too long to expect to kill terminators as easily as that. Sometimes, the guy just doesn't roll any ones.

He rolls two ones just as often as he doesn't roll any; sometimes he even rolls three. There's a lot of variability, yes, but it does all average out in the end. And honestly, I see my boyz killing terminators a lot more often than not. They're as reliable as anything is in 40k.

Redbeard wrote:
I think the original argument is that 3++ in general is somewhat wrong. You keep coming back to how these cheap ork shootaboy units can kill a terminator. What about the armies that don't have the models to put out that kind of volume of fire? They're hardly worthless against guard (they can wreck an entire line of chimeras at once), or non-terminator marines. They are a threat that most armies cannot just ignore. And, in the past, armies would pack some AP2 guns to guard against this possibility, but the 3++ makes those fairly worthless.

All of this is true, but once again I have to point out; effective use of Assault Terminators is highly situational if you haven't brought a Land Raider, and extremely expensive if you have. You can have either tactical flexibility or a reasonably-priced unit, but not both, and that's what keeps Assault Terminators (in my mind) from being underpriced/overpowered, Yes, they're hard to kill. . . but they're just one unit. If you're fighting Guard, you can often feed them one infantry squad per turn and pile lasgun fire onto them in your Shooting phases in between. As MEQs, usually you have a way to avoid them or an Assault Terminator unit of your own to counter-hammer them with. Furthermore, the amount of fire required to kill Assault Terminators isn't unobtainably high; 12 bolter hits will put down a Terminator. It's a lot, but even small armies can manage it with judiciously-focused fire. 10 TH/SS Terminators cost 400 points without transport; that's 1/5th of a competitively-sized army. Shouldn't you expect them to be able to soak up a turn's worth of shooting from an entire army at that points level?

I don't think that a 3++ is inherently unbalanced. I think people's ideas of what 'should' happen are offended by seeing a unit ignore 2/3 of plasma hits, or lascannon hits; but the truth is simply that Assault Terminators are not MEQ, or even TEQ, they're a different class of unit entirely. The things that work against normal Marines do not work on them, but other things do. Dealing with them requires different tactics; you can't just spam plasma and count on that killing ALL of your opponent's infantry with it, because some of them will laugh at your plasma and then beat your face in with a hammer. I just don't see that as a problem.

BeRzErKeR wrote: The things that work against normal Marines do not work on them, but other things do. Dealing with them requires different tactics; you can't just spam plasma and count on that killing ALL of your opponent's infantry with it, because some of them will laugh at your plasma and then beat your face in with a hammer. I just don't see that as a problem.

Here's the thing. There is no different tactic, You still deal with them pretty much the same way you deal with other terminators, either volume of non penetrating fire, or you try and force them to use the less capable invul. The difference is that the latter option is half as effective, you need to throw twice as much firepower at them to drop them. That's it, it's not really a change in tactics, it means you need to throw twice as much stuff at them.

As is, they've made just about any other type of terminator pointless there's a reason you almost never see other terminators in C:SM armies and it's not because the other variants are awful, and aside from BT's with their super-cheap double heavy weapons throwing out 4 move&shoot missiles a turn with Tank Hunters, that's unlikely to change soon.

Vaktathi wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote: The things that work against normal Marines do not work on them, but other things do. Dealing with them requires different tactics; you can't just spam plasma and count on that killing ALL of your opponent's infantry with it, because some of them will laugh at your plasma and then beat your face in with a hammer. I just don't see that as a problem.

Here's the thing. There is no different tactic, You still deal with them pretty much the same way you deal with other terminators, either volume of non penetrating fire, or you try and force them to use the less capable invul. The difference is that the latter option is half as effective, you need to throw twice as much firepower at them to drop them. That's it, it's not really a change in tactics, it means you need to throw twice as much stuff at them.

As is, they've made just about any other type of terminator pointless there's a reason you almost never see other terminators in C:SM armies and it's not because the other variants are awful, and aside from BT's with their super-cheap double heavy weapons throwing out 4 move&shoot missiles a turn with Tank Hunters, that's unlikely to change soon.

What? That's not what I got from his statement at all. What he zerker said sounds like if an IG army plans to counter an SM army by taking a whole lot of vets with plasma guns then the TH/SS termi will force him to use the other method, which is forcing the TH/SS to take a whole of saves (or tarpit them with a blob). I see that the transition from "use few high-strength & low AP" to "mass volume of fire/tarpit with blob" as a change in tactic. Obviously a transition from "shoot em with plasma" to "shoot em with MORE plasma" is not a change in tactic and definitely NOT what he is talking about.

My point was that you're left with the same options either way, volume of fire included(note my first sentence in my previous post), be it AP2 or not, but AP2 is still generally going to be the most effective method, just less so than against other terminators, and that as a result of this resiliency they simply overshadow the other Terminator options.

The 3++ basically removes the reliable way of destroying that unit, while not really losing anything except the Stormbolter nobody cares about, meaning they are simply just much more effective than alternatives.


EDIT: missed this earlier.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:So what I am gathering about the ultimate complaint then, as I feel you sum it up, is that TH/SS termies are OP and under costed because you have to dedicate more points to destroy them than the termies cost??

I'm saying that dedicating 200%+pts to their destruction over several turns isn't exactly great.

If I am reading this thread correctly, then I would have to say poo poo to your complaints here. There isnt a unit in the game that doesnt normally take more than its points worth of "aggro" to destroy.

I beg to differ, there's lots of units that are relatively easily destroyed by roughly equal cost or even cheaper units.

For what TH/SS termies do, they are just fine. Its a sloooow unit

How are they slower than the vast majority of other Space Marine units? Aside from vehicles and Assault Marines, what's faster?

and even with the 2+ 3++ they are vulnerable to the same strategies that takes down any tough unit.

Except highly resistant to the traditional tools of dealing with units like them, to the point where they are taken to the almost complete exclusion of other types of Terminators in C:SM armies

Weight of dice, and simply ignoring them.

Weight of dice is really the *only* option and generally considered "the hard" way of dealing with such units. Ignoring a unit sporting 15 S8 power weapon attacks on a charge isn't an option for most armies.

If you took them in a landraider you are going to maximize that unit at maybe 6 models, 5 if you want an hq with them.

Yup, but that's usually plenty for what you need them to do.

5 terminators is hardly scary unless its paladins and draigo XD.

I do not believe your opponents have been using them to the best of their abilities then. As I mentioned earlier, there's practically no better anti-MC CC unit in the game, and even a small squad of 5 stands a good chance of clearing several tanks off a flank of a mech gunline on a decent multi-charge. Paladins often are actually easier to deal with (only a 5+ invul save against shooting and 2 wounds doesn't matter if you hit them with something S8+). In fact, typically, TH/SS termi's are going to come out on top if put in a fight against Paladins. (5 paladins striking with hammerhand against 5 TH/SS termi's on average is going to result in 1.48 casualties to the TH/SS unit. 3.52 TH/SS termi's striking back is going to result in 1.98 casualties back to the Paladin unit, meaning the TH/SS termi's are inflicting roughly 33% more casualties and roughly double, if not more, in terms of points destruction)

But even then, the same tactics apply. Remove the raider, and watch them poke around trying to get within 12 inches of something, or remove the raider and shoot them with plasma and str8+ (because odds are there isnt much else on the table to contend with with that unit)

Same as with any other terminator unit yes, but again, they're twice as hard to kill as equivalents with specialized anti-terminator weaponry and that makes them not only unreasonably hard for a mere 40pts but also a no-brainer over LC or SB/PF equipped Terminators.

(This was said with the knowledge of the location and purpose of this thread, just felt like offering my 2 cents)
It takes average of 6 wounds to kill a terminator. 4 if he is being hit with ap2. SO I dont find it at all intimidating to face termies no matter what dex they are from, and mind you I have faced black templar, grey knights, vanilla, space wolves, and blood angels terminators.

On average, it'll take 27 BS4 plasma gun shots to take down a 5 strong TH/SS unit, enough to kill 2 Trygon or nearly kill Abaddon the Despoiler twice over, and that's a weapon who's pretty much sole purpose these days is heavy infantry/anti-MC duty.

you cannot tell me there are situations where a squad of melee only termies is useless, and a squad of shooty termies with a CML or an assault cannon (my favorite) are priceless. Because I can and I am a noob

There may be. That said, the overwhelmingly vast majority of the time, the TH/SS termi's are going to deliver greater casualties to the enemy and do it more reliably. There's a reason you don't see tac termi's in almost any armies in competitive events aside from BT's (who can take 2 cut-price cyclones per squad and get Tank Hunters on top for a mere 3ppm). Honestly? The last time I saw tac termi's on the table that weren't some super new guy's army was 4th edition I think.

Redbeard wrote:Cheak out Ben's list from the ETC last year, for example:
PLAYER: Ben Mohlie
ARMY DESCRIPTION: Space Marines

HQ 1: Librarian: Null Zone, Gate of Infinity [100]

Elite 1: 5 Assault Terminators with thunder hammer storm shield [200]
Elite 2: Dreadnought: twin linked auto-cannon(10), twin linked auto-cannon(10) [125]
Elite 3: Dreadnought: Multimelta (free), storm bolter (free) [105]

Troop 1: Tactical Squad
7 marines with bolters, 1 marine with meltagun (5), 1 marine with missile launcher(free), 1 Sgt. with Power fist (25), combi-melta(10) [210] (has transport 1)

Troop 2: Tactical Squad
7 Marines with bolters, 1 marine flamer(free), 1 marine with missile launcher (free) 1 sgt with bolter [170] (has transport 2)

Troop 3: Tactical Squad
7 Marines with bolters, 1 marine flamer(free), 1 marine with missile launcher (free) 1 sgt with bolter [170] (has transport 3)

Fast Attack 1: Land Speeder: (50) heavy bolter (free), typhoon missile launcher (40) [90]

Fast Attack 2: Land Speeder: (50) heavy bolter (free), typhoon missile launcher (40) [90]

Heavy Support 1: Land Raider: extra armor (15), Multi-Melta (10) [275]

Heavy Support 2:Thunderfire Cannon: [100]

Transport 1: Rhino [35]
Transport 2: Rhazorback twin heavy bolters [40]
Transport 3: Rhazorback twin heavy bolters [40]

Total: 1750

He also won WargamesCon with them last year, although I can't be bothered to do your seaches for you. It's out there, use your tools. so, no, not just "my neighborhood."

You are kidding me. I dig out some batreps of that Wargamescon from fellow player and read them. His opponents were nowhere like what you see in Nova last year and the year before.
Don't you agree???

Pretty crap I would say. So no, quoting me non competitive events don't prove your point. And look at his list. Thunderfire cannon? Landraider? People still take them?!?!

And since your first post, you ve only mentioned Ben, and Ben. Pretty telling. You are painting buddy with him?

Redbeard wrote:If you are fulfilling a vital role in your army (preventing enemy deathstars from rolling you), then it's okay to be good at that and little else. What else is a marine army using to stop thunderwolves/nob bikers/paladins? Maybe only bad players run such units (I don't believe that, but okay, I'll take your word for it), but there are plenty of bad players at tournaments, and you still get matched up with them.

Autocannons, mass of meltas and Multimelta. Besides your painting skills, I know nothing about your list building skill and tactical capability. But I dont need Assault Terminators in my list to stop deathstars. While I dont deny having Assault Termis means you ll have an easier time doing that than me, but against pretty much any other list i have an advantage over you.