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redkommando wrote:

I don't see a problem with the current TH/SS setup with terminators. The 3++ save negates the loss of the extra attack gained by the PF, however no ranged attacks are possible. So it comes down to if you want survivability, ranged, or attacks. Each have there advantages and disadvantages. SS can be easily be countered with a barrage of ranged attacks, and even CC if all the terminators can be wiped out before their assault turn.

Um. . . PFs don't grant an extra attack, TH/SS and shooty Terminators have the same amount of attacks.

But your last statement is true, Iv'e killed a squad of 8 Deathwing Terminators with TH/SS in one turn with a squad of Death Company with CCW and Bolt Pistols

The dark angel deathwing terms only come in squads of 5

The dark angel deathwing terms only come in squads of 5

Really? that cheating bastard

redkommando wrote:

I don't see a problem with the current TH/SS setup with terminators. The 3++ save negates the loss of the extra attack gained by the PF, however no ranged attacks are possible. So it comes down to if you want survivability, ranged, or attacks. Each have there advantages and disadvantages. SS can be easily be countered with a barrage of ranged attacks, and even CC if all the terminators can be wiped out before their assault turn.

Um. . . PFs don't grant an extra attack, TH/SS and shooty Terminators have the same amount of attacks.

But your last statement is true, Iv'e killed a squad of 8 Deathwing Terminators with TH/SS in one turn with a squad of Death Company with CCW and Bolt Pistols

Normal Terminators don't have +1 attack with PF, bad wording on my part, with assualt termies, the dual PF option grants a second attack in CC. Which TH/SS termies don't have.

SSMaxRose wrote:

redkommando wrote:

I don't see a problem with the current TH/SS setup with terminators. The 3++ save negates the loss of the extra attack gained by the PF, however no ranged attacks are possible. So it comes down to if you want survivability, ranged, or attacks. Each have there advantages and disadvantages. SS can be easily be countered with a barrage of ranged attacks, and even CC if all the terminators can be wiped out before their assault turn.

Um. . . PFs don't grant an extra attack, TH/SS and shooty Terminators have the same amount of attacks.

But your last statement is true, Iv'e killed a squad of 8 Deathwing Terminators with TH/SS in one turn with a squad of Death Company with CCW and Bolt Pistols

Normal Terminators don't have +1 attack with PF, bad wording on my part, with assualt termies, the dual PF option grants a second attack in CC. Which TH/SS termies don't have.

What dual PF option?

Not in my Vanilla codex.

Grey Templar wrote:

SSMaxRose wrote:

redkommando wrote:

I don't see a problem with the current TH/SS setup with terminators. The 3++ save negates the loss of the extra attack gained by the PF, however no ranged attacks are possible. So it comes down to if you want survivability, ranged, or attacks. Each have there advantages and disadvantages. SS can be easily be countered with a barrage of ranged attacks, and even CC if all the terminators can be wiped out before their assault turn.

Um. . . PFs don't grant an extra attack, TH/SS and shooty Terminators have the same amount of attacks.

But your last statement is true, Iv'e killed a squad of 8 Deathwing Terminators with TH/SS in one turn with a squad of Death Company with CCW and Bolt Pistols

Normal Terminators don't have +1 attack with PF, bad wording on my part, with assualt termies, the dual PF option grants a second attack in CC. Which TH/SS termies don't have.

What dual PF option?

Not in my Vanilla codex.

Agreed, where is that coming from??

Is he thinking perhaps of Lightning Claws or dual Thunder Hammers?

Is he thinking perhaps of Lightning Claws or dual Thunder Hammers?

Terminators with dual Hammers, that would look awesome

I thought about it a bit, since we where talking about SM codex balance, and maybe in the future:

Chapter Masters - Points stay the same, but they get Artificer Armor base. As well, drop the price of them taking Terminator Armour. This means that Orbital Bombardment only costs 10pts for a one shot special ability, and they get the best protection their chapter can offer, as befits them.

Honour Guard - Points tweaking. not going to suggest any numbers, but, they need to go down.

Devastators - Price drop.

Assault/Vanguard Marines - Price drop. Give Vanguard veterans the options to take Dual Lightning Claws for reduced points (+15 or so, instead of 30 like it is now. Make Jump Packs base.)

Stormshield/Thunder Hammer Terminators then could have a small price hike, maybe +5-10 ppm.

If they had artificer armor base then TDA should be practically free because the only thing they would get out of that would be relentless.

They have a 4+ invuln standard and Art armor gives a 2+

TDA would only have relentless to offer, and deep strike but thats not really much.

What if they made Storm Shields 3++ in close combat, but 4++ against shooting

Anvildude wrote:Is he thinking perhaps of Lightning Claws or dual Thunder Hammers?

Yes, Assault terminators come default with dual lightning claws, which grant the extra attack in close combat.

The problem with changing the Storm Shields themselves is that you have so many Marine armies that use that wargear, meaning errata for several books would be required and the points values in other books would no longer be accurate.

The best thing to do would be to simply change Assault Terminators so that by default they start with Lightning Claws, to which you can upgrade for a SS/PW for 5 points per model, SS/PF for 10 points per model, or SS/TH or SS/CF for 15 points per model. This way there is a definite trade-off, you're losing +1 Attack and taking on more points for the benefit of added survivability (and lethality, depending on how many more points you're willing to spend). Simple solution. I don't know about you guys but I'd still take SS/TH Termies for 55 points a shot, but the choice wouldn't be as obvious or clear-cut as it is now when compared to Tactical Terminators or to Lightning Claw-equipped Assault Terminators. Even for a squad of five Assault Terminators with SS/TH, that adds up to 75 extra points right there (almost enough for another Tactical Squad).

However I do think Tactical Terminators could use some love too. Would like to see them dropped to 35 points per model and be equipped with Storm Bolters and Power Weapons, allowing upgrades into Power Fists/Thunder Hammers/Chainfists for increasing points costs (I like options).

Marik Law wrote:The problem with changing the Storm Shields themselves is that you have so many Marine armies that use that wargear, meaning errata for several books would be required and the points values in other books would no longer be accurate.

The best thing to do would be to simply change Assault Terminators so that by default they start with Lightning Claws, to which you can upgrade for a SS/PW for 5 points per model, SS/PF for 10 points per model, or SS/TH or SS/CF for 15 points per model. This way there is a definite trade-off, you're losing +1 Attack and taking on more points for the benefit of added survivability (and lethality, depending on how many more points you're willing to spend). Simple solution. I don't know about you guys but I'd still take SS/TH Termies for 55 points a shot, but the choice wouldn't be as obvious or clear-cut as it is now when compared to Tactical Terminators or to Lightning Claw-equipped Assault Terminators. Even for a squad of five Assault Terminators with SS/TH, that adds up to 75 extra points right there (almost enough for another Tactical Squad).

However I do think Tactical Terminators could use some love too. Would like to see them dropped to 35 points per model and be equipped with Storm Bolters and Power Weapons, allowing upgrades into Power Fists/Thunder Hammers/Chainfists for increasing points costs (I like options).

Hmmm I like those ideas, esp. the last one about the Tactical Terminators.
IIRC the assault terminators in the 3rd edition codex started with stormbolters and powerfists and then you could upgarde tham from there

I'd take +10pts for SS/TH at most, but if SS/PF is cheaper, why wouldn't everyone just take PFs and accept that you won't get to shake tanks automatically? >.>

+5 pts for SS/PW, +10 for SS/TH.

Like the Idea for tactical terminators, though. drop the price on their wargear upgrades, too, because currently +20 pts for a Missile Launcher is crazy. (even if it can shoot twice)

I'd like to see storm shields as 4++ and counts as defensive grenades. It tones down the invul just a little, while giving back a slight boost in combat.

Ideally, I'd like to see lightning claws as an effective assault options, Thunder/shield as a counter assault/holding unit and normal terminators as a viable combined arms unit. I wouldn't mind seeing terminators getting the 2nd weapon choice back. Alternatively, make 1 unit of shooty terminators scoring/troops with terminator captain. Give me some reason to run those guys.

-Matt

Nice ideas Matt. Never come across the notion of shields as defensive grenades before but it genuinely feels reasonable. Will have to remember it for any future fandexes,

Crazyterran wrote:I'd take +10pts for SS/TH at most, but if SS/PF is cheaper, why wouldn't everyone just take PFs and accept that you won't get to shake tanks automatically? >.>

+5 pts for SS/PW, +10 for SS/TH.

Like the Idea for tactical terminators, though. drop the price on their wargear upgrades, too, because currently +20 pts for a Missile Launcher is crazy. (even if it can shoot twice)

Clyclones are 30 points.