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Since the thread is all over the place, Ill just put in my 2 cents.

First, I like the idea of THSS termies paying 5 points more per model. As a BA player among other things, the extra cost from 200 to 225 is a signifigant change, but also a good one. This makes mixing Lclaws more attractive, as they should.

Second, tactical termies should really just be 10 points less due to the Pweapon on the sarge. 190 base, with each extra termie 40 points, is really all I would want on that unit. While its true that a lot of players dont run tactical termies, I do and I love them. They are really a well balanced unit, and what people fail to see is that the lack of a better INV save doesnt really matter a lot of the time. They still smoke units with no powerweapons and vehicles just as well as THSS termies, and they still have a weakness to mass saves. However, they also get some great shooting, and benefit from cover against ap2 shooting. Its just the overpriced power weapon... 10 points on that one guy fixes all my complaints with the squad.

Also keep in mind that terminators, even tactical terminators, are a specialist unit. You are paying for mass powerfists/thunderhammers, which you get at a discount compared to sarge based powerfists. If you dont want mass s8, you dont want THSS or tactical termies.

I disagree about shooty termies. They are expensive for what they do.

They cost 230 (with a missile launcher)
A tac squad with a missile launcher costs 200, at 10 men, iiirc.

Now. Termies are:
as hard to kill with volume of fire (5 saves at 2+ or 10 saves at 3+)
Put out as much bolter shooting at 24"
Less bolter shooting at 12"
Aren't scoring
Can't be put in a transport except for a very expensive one
Are relentless
Have a 5+ inv
Have powerfists

Now, I feel the invulnerable save is a moot point. Most of the time you'll have cover, and even if you don't it's a pretty bad chance to save your 40 point model anyway!

The same with the fists. They have 4 fists and it's so uneeded. Fists are great with one or two in a squad, when there's plenty of higher init attacks to cover for them. When most of your squad strikes last it's hard to remove those casualties who've already attacked. It's also undeeded. Str 8 is overkill against anything t5 or less. Hence str 8 is best for vehicles and MCs. However tac termies can't go up against MCs as their inv save isn't good enough. And what use is such a slow unit for destroying vehicles in CC.

I mean, if you're shooting then you're walking not in a LR. Hence you're moving 6" a turn. By the time a vehicle reaches assault range it will have unloaded it's cargo, and if it wasn't a transport it would never be within assault range of your termies.

If it was the other way round, 4 power swords and 1 fist, they'd be a ton better. But as it stands they don't have the invs to survive close combat and have to survive it because they mostly strike last.

This problem is further compounded by the fact that they are trying to be good at shooting and close combat. They trade excellence in one area for mediocrity in both... They simply don't put out enough shots. 8 bolter shots and 2 kraks a turn, for 230 points? Maybe if the stormbolter was assault 3, or str 5 or something to make them more frightening at shooting than a 24" away tac squad. Look at other units that are feared for their shooting in this game. They tend to put out either high str, low ap or just buckets of shots. Termies do none of this.

I think tac termies are never really going to be a viable unit unless they focus more. I'd advocate power swords, or even non-power weapons in exchange for much more powerful shooting. We've got assault termies, they're fine. Let's have some shooting termies.


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Now on the topic of assault termies. I think they're fine. They are by no means an auto include. They are codex marines answer to deathstars/MCs in cc but other than that they're not great. Sure they're go through an ork mob slowly, but it's a big waste of points!

Ben Mobile is also one person. Hell even If TH/SS Termies based armies saturated tournament top tables like IG, GK and SW it wouldn't prove they're 'overpowered'. Think goodness armies can have good units. If whiners had their way all the codexes would beat each other with foam bats and rubber bullets.

DevianID wrote:Since the thread is all over the place, Ill just put in my 2 cents.

First, I like the idea of THSS termies paying 5 points more per model. As a BA player among other things, the extra cost from 200 to 225 is a signifigant change, but also a good one. This makes mixing Lclaws more attractive, as they should.

Furious Charge and FNP are what make LCs viable in a BA army... and are what drive the extra 5 points. 40 point TH/SS with FNP would be insanely tough to take down for the price and would almost be a no-brainer. And even in that book with more expensive TH/SS Terminators, Tactical Termies are very rarely taken. Tactical Termies (with the exception of BT) just do not have a well-defined, cost effective role in most armies, which is why they are not taken.

I am completely down with increasing the cost of TH/SS Termies in the Vanilla Dex to match that in the BA dex--if we get the cheaper Devestators and Riflemen Dreads that BA have. Different books are different...

I just want termies. Not Assault termies, not tactual termies, just terminators that can chose their loadout like SW. They're 1st Company vets yet they won't take a pair of LC and Cyclone launcher.

Agreed.

of course TH/SS is over powered.
Consider this, a shooty termite is 40 points. A TH/SS Termite is 40 points.

The difference: One has a storm bolter, one has a 3++, 2d6 for armor penetration and stuns things.

Before we get into the 2d6 penetration and the stuns, consider which is better. A storm bolter or a 3++ just alone. A storm bolter is what, 3-5points and even there it is overcosted. Is a 3++ only worth 5 points? No they cost 15 points.

TH/SS should cost 45-50 points.

Moreso, shooty termites and Chaos termites need a little something and it needs to be shooty. Not more heavy weapons, the heavy weapons are fine what they need is something shootier. Storm bolters should be assualt 3 or strength 5. Chaos twin linked bolters should also be better.

Thunder Hammers only get 1d6 for armor penetration.

Imo, they should drop the price on normal terminators.

EDIT:


Chaos Terminators get the option for Combi Weapons, so, I'm not really crying over them not getting the option of SS/TH. Not to mention they have the option to get 4+ Invuln saves, or +1 attack, or +1 Toughness...

Assault Terminators pay for the inability to customize with cheap SS. God forbid the vanilla marines get a good unit.

Dropping the price on tac termies wouldn’t solve the issue and it would create further balance problems as well as further encouraging power creep. I see no balance issues with tac termies, only a design flaw in that tac termies can’t swap their wargear like CSM/SW termies. If tac termies could their power fists for other options (like CSM/SW), more people would take them.

Rather than buffing everything else to be as good as TH/SS, the cleaner (and quicker) balance solution is to adjust TH/SS to be as good as everything else. I would recommend one of the following:

• Storm Shield Inv save reduced to 4++. No point cost change
• Storm Shield Inv save only works in CC. No point cost change
• Storm Shield Inv save unchanged. TH/SS cost increased to 50pts (applies to BA as well)

The Stormshields are the only elite choice in higher point games we have that are unique to Space Marines that aren't total ass.

You can nerf them if you want, but nerf other codices big elite units too.

External balance is a good point but actually a separate issue altogether.

You can’t really compare the vanilla book with any 5E codex that was created post BA as those codices were created with a radically different point costing system (probably to sell more models). Ideally the vanilla codex needs to be completely re-costed (alongside Tyranids codex as well), which would probably result in some of the more overpriced units such as vanguard vets and honour guard receiving a points reduction.

Also you have to take into account lower points games as well. Whilst a 3++ save might not seem too bad in a 2000pts/Apoc game, it has a greater impact in lower pts games, especially when you take into account the nonsense 5E rules for wound allocation as well as the excessive use of FNP in the newer codices.

candy.man wrote:Rather than buffing everything else to be as good as TH/SS, the cleaner (and quicker) balance solution is to adjust TH/SS to be as good as everything else. I would recommend one of the following:

• Storm Shield Inv save reduced to 4++. No point cost change
• Storm Shield Inv save only works in CC. No point cost change
• Storm Shield Inv save unchanged. TH/SS cost increased to 50pts (applies to BA as well)

Umm.... no. They are really fine as is from an overall balance standpoint. Yes, they look really good when compared to Tactical Terminators, but that is due to Tactical Terminators not having a role to fill and basically being overcosted for what they do in the current meta. Also, when you look at the Vanilla Marine book and how it fits with other books, you notice that TH/SS is one of the few units that they have that are NOT cheaper in other books. BAs get cheaper Devs, VGVs, and Riflemen. SWs get cheaper "Devs" and "Tacticals". Vanilla Marines are far from OP, so increasing the cost of TH/SS by 20% is just kicking them while they are "down" for no reason. Are people really getting decimated by TH/SS Termies? Are they that heinous give all the other nastyness that is out there? And let's be honest... anything that keeps Draigowing honest should be left alone.

Also you have to take into account lower points games as well. Whilst a 3++ save might not seem too bad in a 2000pts/Apoc game, it has a greater impact in lower pts games, especially when you take into account the nonsense 5E rules for wound allocation as well as the excessive use of FNP in the newer codices.

TH/SS Termies become less effective in smaller points games, simply because they do not score and require a very expensive transport to do anything useful.

You’ve made a few blanket statements there that I’m not going to comment on (as they’re very subjective). Using Draigowing as a point of measure isn’t a good idea either I’m afraid. Also the overall balance of the Vanilla marine book versus other codices is separate issue altogether (due to the latter 5E codices being point costed under a cheaper model) and belongs in a separate thread.

You will have to try harder if you’re to convince me otherwise as I’ve yet to hear a really good counter argument about SS and associated external balance specifically.

candy.man wrote:You’ve made a few blanket statements there that I’m not going to comment on (as they’re very subjective). Using Draigowing as a point of measure isn’t a good idea either I’m afraid. Also the overall balance of the Vanilla marine book versus other codices is separate issue altogether (due to the latter 5E codices being point costed under a cheaper model) and belongs in a separate thread.

You will have to try harder if you’re to convince me otherwise as I’ve yet to hear a really good counter argument about SS and associated external balance specifically.

It's ok, you are going to have to try harder to convince anyone that Storm Shields on Assault Terminators, of all things, need to be nerfed. They are fine as is, one person using them isn't proof they are over powered. They aren't carrying tournaments, and only two people on this forum seem to be crying about it.

I'm wasn't trying to convince people but rather present an alternate opinion in this thread. Not only that but most of the people in this thread have already made up their minds and are not likely to change anyway.

My parting shot is that you guys are too focused on the "internal balance" of the vanilla codex and using "external balance" with late 5E codices (it's choice picking facts). You also have to consider the mechanic itself of the 3++, the price of the unit versus others and as well as the minor impact of any sort of nerf.

Personally in the opinion that all Tactical TA needs a slight conceptual revamp. If they came with normal PWs, like the Wolf Guard TDA, with the option for PFs you could probably shave 5pts off. TH/SS by comparison could do with a pricing similar to their BA counterparts. They're not too OP, but I get the feeling that being the first codex of the edition has led to the pricing of many things being off-key compared to later releases, (e.g. 10pts for digital weapons and so on...)

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:It doesnt matter whether you can hide behind the SS or not. The physical structure of the shield houses energy field projectors. So you could wear it on your back and you should still be giving you a 3+ invul save.

Yeah, advocates of the 'only working in assault' tend to forget this. It's this element that provides the actual save, while the physical shield is used to house it. Also, 4++ in cc only rules would be like going back to useless 3E standards again... *ugh*

BrotherHaraldus wrote:I'm shocked by the sheer amount of replies to this thread, but here is more of my opinion.

There was a similar thread recently posted on Warseer. It's been on 15 pages now and is still going strong. I expect those statistics may be repeated here too.

candy.man wrote:My parting shot is that you guys are too focused on the "internal balance" of the vanilla codex and using "external balance" with late 5E codices (it's choice picking facts). You also have to consider the mechanic itself of the 3++, the price of the unit versus others and as well as the minor impact of any sort of nerf.

So internal balance doesn't matter... and being externally balanced with the current books is a BAD thing? You might think we are just cherry-picking facts, but at least we are using them. All I have seen as reasons to nerf TH/SS are things such as, "They are too hard to kill... I should be able to look at them and they die... My book doesn't get them.... waaaagh."

wow, assault marines vs term...units built to do two diffrent things, point cost are based on potential aswell, your talken AM built to own the board, get in and hit hard moving cover to cover,...then terms built to kill the big guys and tank the board.

at the same time assault terms kill biggedr single units, and reg terms kill horde with missile and storm bolters.

in short, stop complainni g, hit them with plasma cannons and make them cry, or take ur own

Exergy wrote:of course TH/SS is over powered.
Consider this, a shooty termite is 40 points. A TH/SS Termite is 40 points.

The difference: One has a storm bolter, one has a 3++, 2d6 for armor penetration and stuns things.

Before we get into the 2d6 penetration and the stuns, consider which is better. A storm bolter or a 3++ just alone. A storm bolter is what, 3-5points and even there it is overcosted. Is a 3++ only worth 5 points? No they cost 15 points.

TH/SS should cost 45-50 points.

Moreso, shooty termites and Chaos termites need a little something and it needs to be shooty. Not more heavy weapons, the heavy weapons are fine what they need is something shootier. Storm bolters should be assualt 3 or strength 5. Chaos twin linked bolters should also be better.

At least learn the rules before you start whining, ok?

Anyway, TH&SS termies are not OP or undercosted. They are costed just fine. Its the other stuff that is overcosted/crap. By no means is a squad of TH&SS termies a must have thing in the vanilla codex, tactical termies on the other hand is a big no no. The logical thing would then to make the "no no" unit an acceptable choice instead of making the decently priced option another "no no" option

TH/SS terminators are perfectly priced and balanced.

Tactical terminators are overpriced.


TH/SS terminators also need an expensive transport to get them into the fight. If they footslog it will take them way too long to get there. That puts a cap on their unit size unless they combat squad, which leaves one half hoofing it.

Perhaps it ought to be considered from the POV of other TEq units in the game. Wraiths, Meganobz, Wraithguard.

Meganobz I know are the exact same price as a Terminator. They are roughly equivalent, with tradeoffs to the Termie benefits and drawbacks. How much do you think it should cost to let a Meganob trade its twin-linked Shoota (which is slightly worse than a Stormbolter even discounting Ork shooting) for a 3++ save? Or two extra Wounds?

Or what about Wraiths, who come with a 3++, ignore terrain and have 2 Wounds? How much should an Assault 2 Strength 4 weapon cost for them? In addition to a Powerfist?

Yes, they're different units, but as I said, they have tradeoffs that do balance them- compared to Normal Termies. (also, by the way, Power Weapons are arguably better than Powerfists)

Meganobs for example have 2 wounds, can Sweep defeated enemies, have Furious Charge and can take Fast, open-topped Transports. But they have BS2, Init 2, have no options for faster weapons, Slow and Purposeful, and no invulnerable save. Tac termies have a built in 5++, the Sarge can take a Power Weapon, and they shoot better, while also being able to take a lot more gun options, in exchange for not being able to Sweep, and being restricted to Deep Strike and Land Raiders as transports.

And then Termies can swap for TH/SS. They lose nothing but 2 Strength 4 shots, and gain the ability to completely ignore 2/3 of all AP2 attacks, as well as the normal 5/6 of regular attacks. Thunderhammers? Those're fine.

In short, it's not so much that the Storm Shield is overpowered or undercosted, as that it's OP and UC on Terminators. SS on Marines or Scouts or Guardsmen is ABSOLUTELY fine. They just gain a permanent 3+ save. Dreds get that 3+ save against the few things that can hurt them. Even a 5 point cost would be fine for them, for Terminators. A Wargear option, like so many others.

Grey Templar wrote:TH/SS terminators are perfectly priced and balanced.

Tactical terminators are overpriced.


TH/SS terminators also need an expensive transport to get them into the fight. If they footslog it will take them way too long to get there. That puts a cap on their unit size unless they combat squad, which leaves one half hoofing it.

Or...they can deepstrike. And use their 2+ 3++ saves to weather the shooting.

Grey Templar wrote:TH/SS terminators are perfectly priced and balanced.

Sure, so are vendettas, long fangs, and purifiers.

Almost anyone taking them would still take them at 45pts. At 50pts they'd still be considered quite useable by most players. 2+/3++ sv, Ld9, Deep Strikeable, WS4 T4, 2A units with ATSKNF/CT and wielding S8 poweweapons that have additional effects are quite worth 50ppm in most people's eyes.

Tactical terminators are overpriced.

They weren't really seen so until the Stormshield gave a 3++sv for the same cost.

TH/SS terminators also need an expensive transport to get them into the fight. If they footslog it will take them way too long to get there.

Not always, many footslogging infantry units routinely get into combat turn 2 in many games, the transports isn't required to get TH/SS termi's to work, it just helps. LC termi's do need it to function properly, primarily for AP2 protection, but not TH/SS termi's.

That puts a cap on their unit size unless they combat squad, which leaves one half hoofing it.

Nobody takes/would take them in larger sized squads anyway (no need), so not really a loss.


The only reason that they aren't seen as a greater issue is that creep from subsequent books has overshadowed much of the rest of the codex. One will notice that they didn't make TH/SS termi's as cheap in subsequent books and they didn't repeat the same mistake with the GK codex (e.g. they gave them an option for a great invul save, but made it apply only in CC and restricted it's availability)

I may be off-topic here (not sure) but for me the biggest 3++ shield bonus comes out joined with Eternal Warrior. Those two should not go together as often/cheap as they do.
3++ just begs for herohammer which should stay in skirmish type games.

Vaktathi wrote:Almost anyone taking them would still take them at 45pts. At 50pts they'd still be considered quite useable by most players. 2+/3++ sv, Ld9, Deep Strikeable, WS4 T4, 2A units with ATSKNF/CT and wielding S8 poweweapons that have additional effects are quite worth 50ppm in most people's eyes.

BA TH/SS Termies are priced that way because FNP removes one of their major weaknesses, which is simply making them fail 2+ saves. If you took them to 50 ppm, you would never see them taken in either book. Go ahead and remove them from the codex at that point. 50 ppm is almost the same cost as Paladins...

My biggest question in all of this is what would the point of increasing the cost be? To see fewer TH/SS units taken? I would argue that they aren't even seen very much now, so why is it important to see them taken less? Is it to allow other units to be competitive? If so, wouldn't it be better to fix the problems with the other units so that they are viable rather than removing a solid choice and forcing Marines to take other, subpar choices?

How many EW models get a 3++ save?

Lysander, thats all I can think of.

Grey Templar wrote:How many EW models get a 3++ save?

Lysander, thats all I can think of.

And Draigo.

Th/ss termis are good but they are definetly not the best close combat squad in the game if they are charged they have 10 attacks at I1, that's not that much a beatstick. also in context they are the only universaly accepted good CC unit in the vanilla dex, why should they be nerfed? how would a SM handle GK at all without TH/SS termis? How would they handle BA or SW? Finailly as good as they are in CC they still have to get there (which requires a risky deepstrike or an expensive transport. Like I said Good but not great.

3++ is not too hard to cut through. So 5 cost 200pts for the same cost an eldar player can do the following:

20 storm guardians with warlock with enhance.

Good luck chewing through that!

They way i handle Terms is with the swarm of fire if they have storm shields. wasting a las-cannon on removing 1pt in the save isnt worth it. doing the math for every 6 wounds should kill one term, and if thats 25% losses they run away if they fail the ld test.

This is the 3rd post about terms and there shields...i HATE de and there dark lance spam, give you $1 if you can guess how i counter that...