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Joey wrote:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Joey wrote:It is an aboration of the English language and should not be read by anyone.
I hate it.

you do realize that this aberration of English, as you call it, was done on purpose, right? He basically created his own dialect of slang speak for the book (and by proxy, the movie).

As to you hating it, I can't comment, because to each his own.

I know.
But if people are going to go around making up language as they go along we may as well go back to flinging gak at each other in trees.

Have you ever watched Fox news?


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Everybody seems to be arguing about art and morality from this. OK.

Depiction of an act is not in itself the act. I would say that art depicts a repugnant act so that the lessons that lead to the judgement of morality can be made without exposure to the actual act. Further it is necessary for art to challenge accepted morality so that the freedom of a society can not be restricted by the overbearing morality of some individuals or groups.

A Clockwork Orange depicts the fear that society may degrade to the point where youths may commit such violence it is not meant to glorify the acts but to show how the antihero Alex feels about them.

Joey wrote:

Albatross wrote:

Joey wrote:

Albatross wrote:Joey, your thoughts on art and morality?

Arbitrary distinctions. There is only impulse.

Arbitrary does not mean 'meaningless', in fact, the construction and interpretation of meaning is an important component of arbitration.

But still arbitrary.

Do you actually know what that word means?

I don't care what people think about morality or art, I will go about doing what I will.

No you won't. You are acted upon by the morality of others, at all times. You might not care about gravity, but jump off the roof and you will most certainly hit the ground.

Most people go about their lives just fine without bourgeois babble about morality.

What does class have to do with this? And no they don't.

Ahtman wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:That's a bit of a different context, though, don't you think?

I'm not arguing that it's not a critically acclaimed film, I'm saying that its popularity within certain demographics isn't based solely on its artistic merits.

It seemed more like you were trying to say that it is a movie/book that only is liked by teens, and even then they need to be angsty.

Nope. Basically, my argument is that A Clockwork Orange is revered by some based almost entirely for its "shock" value. While it definitely has artistic merits, pretending that this is the reason for its popularity among certain groups just isn't accurate.

Monster Rain wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:That's a bit of a different context, though, don't you think?

I'm not arguing that it's not a critically acclaimed film, I'm saying that its popularity within certain demographics isn't based solely on its artistic merits.

It seemed more like you were trying to say that it is a movie/book that only is liked by teens, and even then they need to be angsty.

Nope. Basically, my argument is that A Clockwork Orange is revered by some based almost entirely for its "shock" value. While it definitely has artistic merits, pretending that this is the reason for its popularity among certain groups just isn't accurate.

I'd imagine now days its not shocking, other than not understanding what's being said. Its almost tame at this point.
Whats also interesting to me is the whole "wo its so futury violent" go to East LA. Reality is worlds worse than that movie/book.

Not sure if it is the same over in the USA, but over here (at least, amongst my peer group) A Clockwork Orange had attained a near-mythical status in much the same way as The Exorcist did. Probably because they were either banned or skirted the line at being banned it aroused the taboo-gland in us youngsters; a way to snub our noses at the establishment by viewing films that they deemed not viewable.

Well the Exorcist is genuinely terrifying. Even though spoofed and copied, put it on a big screen again and some of the old flair is back.

I only saw Clockwork Orange as a hormone teen and the uncensored factor of it was like "wow!" but that was kind of it.

Plus McDowell is just a damn fine actor in anything.

Frazzled wrote:Well the Exorcist is genuinely terrifying. Even though spoofed and copied, put it on a big screen again and some of the old flair is back.

I only saw Clockwork Orange as a hormone teen and the uncensored factor of it was like "wow!" but that was kind of it.

Plus McDowell is just a damn fine actor in anything.

The only reason The Exorcist was revered as such was because there was an urban myth going round that there was a scene in it where a crucifix is inserted into a not oft depicted location (not sure if it is true or not; I have never seen the film). Of course this immediately guaranteed the film placement on the list of shocking films to see - pure teenage titillation and shock value at best.

Respectfully - NO.

Its consistently rated one of the top 100 horror movies of all time. Often in the top 10

Frazzled wrote:Respectfully - NO.

Its consistently rated one of the top 100 horror movies of all time. Often in the top 10

No, no - I meant revered and held in high estimation by my peer group. I'm sure it is a marvellous film, I've never seen it.

Well now you know what you need to do this weekend.

Monster Rain wrote:Oh come off it, sebster.

If the enjoyment from angry teenage males was the same for this film and Gone With the Wind you might be on to something.

It certainly appeals to kids because it's ultraviolent and highly stylised. In that sense it's no different to 40K. I'm just not sure that the kids think it makes them rebels, though, as much as being something they happen to think is cool at the time.


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Magpie wrote:Perhaps we are heading for the world depicted in the story despite Anthony Burgess' warning?

There was no warning in Burgess' novel. That really wasn't the point of the thing.


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Monster Rain wrote:Nope. Basically, my argument is that A Clockwork Orange is revered by some based almost entirely for its "shock" value. While it definitely has artistic merits, pretending that this is the reason for its popularity among certain groups just isn't accurate.

Which is a fair summary. From your first post it sounded like you were saying this was the only reason it is revered, and while that isn't true it likely is for certain demographics (ie teen boys).


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Frazzled wrote:Well the Exorcist is genuinely terrifying. Even though spoofed and copied, put it on a big screen again and some of the old flair is back.

I only saw Clockwork Orange as a hormone teen and the uncensored factor of it was like "wow!" but that was kind of it.

Plus McDowell is just a damn fine actor in anything.

The film really is a lot more than just shock value. Aside from simply brilliant score, it delivers an unrelenting message about the justice system, and about politics.


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filbert wrote:The only reason The Exorcist was revered as such was because there was an urban myth going round that there was a scene in it where a crucifix is inserted into a not oft depicted location (not sure if it is true or not; I have never seen the film). Of course this immediately guaranteed the film placement on the list of shocking films to see - pure teenage titillation and shock value at best.

The reason the Exorcist was a surprise hit was due to the rumour about it really happening. But lots of films have been surprise hits because of clever marketing. That stupid Ashley Judd movie Double Jeopardy was little more than a telly movie that stumbled onto the big screen, but it spent three weeks at number one in part because of a rumour that there really totally had been a case like this.

And yet that stupid Ashley Judd movie is almost completely forgotten, while The Exorcist is still talked about today. In part because it is still a really scary movie, and also because it was a masterfully made movie, that really had a lot to say about faith.