Tau, Stealth suits, yay or nay?

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**Ovion**

1: The line in the taudex about the Heavy Weapons doesn't stop relentless, if it did the relentless gained from the Advanced Stabilisation System becomes irrelevant.

2: I've found that Stealth suits are a little overpriced in standard 40k.

BUT, I've found they are amazing in Apocalypse games.
Being everything can hold objectives, and Stealth Suits have Stealth, they can have each have 2 shield drones and take a markerlight.

3 Suits, 6 Shield Drones, 1 guy with a markerlight and targetting array, sat on an objective will generally get ignored in the insane free-for-all of the Apoc-y-ness - meaning once the smoke clears you've got a decent chance of winning

3: It's best to run 2 Railheads and 2-3 Broadsides. The broadsides Railguns are great for tanks, but less so for troops.
A Railheads true potential lies more in its large blast. While I've on occasion switched to solid slug for mine and they HAVE done decent damage to when they hit, dropping Str6 large blasts each turn is better

It's also a LOT cheaper.

**enfernux**

@Ovion
the connecting part from the 'dex (pg27):
The battlesuits are designed to compesate for the recoil of light weapon fire, so they do not count as moveing when fireing rapid fire weapons. This ability does not extend to heavy weapons, however, and the user must be stationary to fire them.

XV8-XV88. BUT NOT xv15 and 25. So even though they have relentless, they still cant fire.
But duno if that extends to drones, im just reading that part, and it only sais as owner. So in my read, if owner is a jump infantry by the cause of anything, it only becomes jump infantry, but not Jet Pack JI. Or it becomes jump infantry w anything the owner has to throw at it(??).

about ASS: it says than you may fire as thoug stationary, so overwrites the XV suit rule.

**imrandomghgh**

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Just saying, Shadowsun could one shot farsight easier than farsight could one shot Shadowsun.

She has better BS, three extra wounds(yay drones), Stealthfield, Shield gen, and two fusion Blasters.

In CC, he would win. But she could prolly take him out in shooting playing the Wound Allocation game.

When I did use Stealth Suits( when I first started tau around the start of 5th) My dice hated me and the only time my StealthSuits would kill anything was in CC. But they would always win CC if there was even the slightest chance of it happening.

Now I run 3 Bladestorms(PR/BC), 3 Fireknives(PR/MP), and 3 Deathrains(TL MP/BSF) with a Centurion Commander (Shas'el w CiB/PR/TA). The Bladestorms focus on infantry, Deathrains on Transports and MCs, and Fireknives to support whichever squad needs more... well support. This has worked well for me both on vassal and IRL.

The Reason I dropped the Stealth Suits was because they were pretty much really expensive kroot at the end of the day (YMMV). So I dropped them for the Bladestorms and more kroot, since kroot really do the Stealth Suit's( speedbump, not markerlights) job for about a 1/3 of the points. Even less if you gave all the Steathsuits TA like I did.

I run almost the exact same suits, except I run two bladestorm+ as bodyguards (same-ish cost) for the centurion. My reason: They do the same amount of hits a turn, and because the centurion on his own would get killed, and I don't want to put him with three suits (That many bodies gets clunky). The cons are that ID is a bigger problem and less wounds, but this is just how I prefer to run them (Plus, I already painted them with Shas'vre marking and don't want to change it/buy another suit).

And I used to run stealth suit but I realized how much Str5 there already is in the army. Plus, they fire three times the rounds a FW fires, at the same BS, and three times the price, but without the ability to turn that 3 shots into 6 shots in 12"> and without 30" range. Only their 3+ and JSJ gives them any advantage over FW, and still not enough to make up for it. Plus,. FW suck, so what does that mean for SS?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ovion wrote:1: The line in the taudex about the Heavy Weapons doesn't stop relentless, if it did the relentless gained from the Advanced Stabilisation System becomes irrelevant.

2: I've found that Stealth suits are a little overpriced in standard 40k.

BUT, I've found they are amazing in Apocalypse games.
Being everything can hold objectives, and Stealth Suits have Stealth, they can have each have 2 shield drones and take a markerlight.

3 Suits, 6 Shield Drones, 1 guy with a markerlight and targetting array, sat on an objective will generally get ignored in the insane free-for-all of the Apoc-y-ness - meaning once the smoke clears you've got a decent chance of winning

3: It's best to run 2 Railheads and 2-3 Broadsides. The broadsides Railguns are great for tanks, but less so for troops.
A Railheads true potential lies more in its large blast. While I've on occasion switched to solid slug for mine and they HAVE done decent damage to when they hit, dropping Str6 large blasts each turn is better
It's also a LOT cheaper.

The best thing with apoc is that If I wanted, I could deploy 208 SS from a single manta.

Also, Broadsides DO have a STR 5 AP 5 heavy 4 weapon for infantry threats...just saying.

**Ovion**

Yes, the specfic wording is:

Tau Codex, Pg.27 wrote:XV8 Crisis Battlesuit:
The Battlesuits are designed to compensate for the recoil of light weapons fire, so they do not count as moving when they fire Rapid Fire weapons. This ability does not extend to heavy weapons, however, and the user must be stationary to fire them.

Warhammer Rulebook, Pg.76 wrote:Relentless:
Relentless models can shoot with rapid fire and heavy weapons counting as stationary, even if they moved in the previous Movement phase, and are also allowed to assault in the the same turn they fired them.

Warhammer Rulebook, Pg.76 wrote:Slow and Purposeful:
Models with this special rule are relentless (see above).
However they always count as moving through difficult terrain (including in assaults).

So yes, the standard rule of the Tau Codex for the XV8 specifies it counts as stationary for firing rapid fire weapons.
HOWEVER, the ASS simply confers Slow and Purposeful, which in turn gives the unit Relentless, which makes the model count as being stationary for the purposes of firing.

IF the XV8 Battlesuit rule prevents the Relentless Rule inherrant to Jump Infantry (Jet Pack) that was introduced in a later edition of the core rules, then by extension it would also prevent the Relentless provided by Slow and Purposeful.

It's simply a hold-over from a previous edition in an outdated codex, like target-priority tests.

So the XV8 is Relentless, so can fire rapid fire and heavy weapons even if they moved and can also Jump-Shoot-Jump.
Of course the only XV8s that have heavy weapons are in IA, but they can indeed move and fire those heavy weapons!
The XV-15, XV-25 and any Drones that are Jump Infantry (Jet Pack) are also relentless so can fire rapid fire and heavy weapons even if they moved and can also Jump-Shoot-Jump.

**imrandomghgh**

Ovion wrote:Yes, the specfic wording is:

Tau Codex, Pg.27 wrote:XV8 Crisis Battlesuit:
The Battlesuits are designed to compensate for the recoil of light weapons fire, so they do not count as moving when they fire Rapid Fire weapons. This ability does not extend to heavy weapons, however, and the user must be stationary to fire them.

Warhammer Rulebook, Pg.76 wrote:Relentless:
Relentless models can shoot with rapid fire and heavy weapons counting as stationary, even if they moved in the previous Movement phase, and are also allowed to assault in the the same turn they fired them.

Warhammer Rulebook, Pg.76 wrote:Slow and Purposeful:
Models with this special rule are relentless (see above).
However they always count as moving through difficult terrain (including in assaults).

So yes, the standard rule of the Tau Codex for the XV8 specifies it counts as stationary for firing rapid fire weapons.
HOWEVER, the ASS simply confers Slow and Purposeful, which in turn gives the unit Relentless, which makes the model count as being stationary for the purposes of firing.

IF the XV8 Battlesuit rule prevents the Relentless Rule inherrant to Jump Infantry (Jet Pack) that was introduced in a later edition of the core rules, then by extension it would also prevent the Relentless provided by Slow and Purposeful.

It's simply a hold-over from a previous edition, like target-priority tests.

XV-15, XV-25 and any Drones that are Jump Infantry (Jet Pack) are also relentless so can fire rapid fire and heavy weapons even if they moved and can also Jump-Shoot-Jump.

So the way it's worded means that A.S.S. is unneccessary to buy A.S.S. because you already have it anyways? Except for XV88 since they're not Jump Pack

**Ovion**

Pretty much.
It's not the first piece of wargear / rule to be invalidated by a new core edition.

Like the Command and Control Node!

**A Town Called Malus**

imrandomghgh wrote:

Ovion wrote:1: The line in the taudex about the Heavy Weapons doesn't stop relentless, if it did the relentless gained from the Advanced Stabilisation System becomes irrelevant.

2: I've found that Stealth suits are a little overpriced in standard 40k.

BUT, I've found they are amazing in Apocalypse games.
Being everything can hold objectives, and Stealth Suits have Stealth, they can have each have 2 shield drones and take a markerlight.

3 Suits, 6 Shield Drones, 1 guy with a markerlight and targetting array, sat on an objective will generally get ignored in the insane free-for-all of the Apoc-y-ness - meaning once the smoke clears you've got a decent chance of winning

3: It's best to run 2 Railheads and 2-3 Broadsides. The broadsides Railguns are great for tanks, but less so for troops.
A Railheads true potential lies more in its large blast. While I've on occasion switched to solid slug for mine and they HAVE done decent damage to when they hit, dropping Str6 large blasts each turn is better
It's also a LOT cheaper.

The best thing with apoc is that If I wanted, I could deploy 208 SS from a single manta.

Also, Broadsides DO have a STR 5 AP 5 heavy 4 weapon for infantry threats...just saying.

But unless they have Multi-trackers you're sacrificing Twin-Linked S10 AP1 shooting for those S5 shots, so it's easy to see how their SMS don't get used too often when there's so many other units who can pump out S5 or better shots (i.e. everything in the Tau army except Kroot carnivores)

**Milisim**

Wow 4 pages...

Thats a lot of yakking for a simple NAY.

**juraigamer**

Milisim wrote:Wow 4 pages...

Thats a lot of yakking for a simple NAY.

Did you read? It's clearly spit between yes and no, with the same kinds of players sticking to yes, and the other kind sticking to no.

**notabot187**

juraigamer wrote:
Milisim wrote:Wow 4 pages...

Thats a lot of yakking for a simple NAY.

Did you read? It's clearly spit between yes and no, with the same kinds of players sticking to yes, and the other kind sticking to no.

The book has been out for a bit, so the opinions are going to be set in stone for people. I'm a bit more flexible than I sound tbh. I would say take them if you aren't using the standard FoC, as that is my biggest complaint with the book.

I would love for them to be switched to troops for instance, either through a special character, limited numbers (like 0-2 units) or even straight up troops. Their survivability and lack of focus between utility (anti tank or marker lights) and anti infantry is more suited towards troop units anyways.

**Ovion**

For what it's worth my answer was yes AND no, and putting the argument about suits being relentless to rest.

**Iur_tae_mont**

I like the discussion. Nice to see a tau tactic thread that just isn't like 5 posts, all saying the idea is old or just not a good one.

**Nagashek**

Honestly given Stealth, Infiltrate, Outflank and Deepstrike, I'd say they're almost Fast Attack. Certainly faster than Pathfinders (in terms of manuvering and still being useful.)

**Iur_tae_mont**

They(pathfinders) were assigned with the 4th ed deployment in mind, which had Fast Attacks either on the board first or on the board last.

I wanna say last, since first seems too obvious and it would give more of an advantage to fast attacks to be deployed last. Since you could use them to pinpoint and attack weak points in the enemy deployment.

**Nagashek**

Iur_tae_mont wrote:They(pathfinders) were assigned with the 4th ed deployment in mind, which had Fast Attacks either on the board first or on the board last.

I wanna say last, since first seems too obvious and it would give more of an advantage to fast attacks to be deployed last. Since you could use them to pinpoint and attack weak points in the enemy deployment.

Last. And the idea that Tau were initially created "with 4th ed in mind" is illogical given that they came out well before 4th did, and also got a 4th ed codex. But, seeing as how 3rd ed had the same deployment order, your initial idea might be all right. Really they're fast attack because they had scout, which lets them get a pre game move, allowed them to always be on the board regardless of mission, and are required to be in transports while having an assault weapon, meaning they could jump out and shoot up a target (in 3rd ed, you could not move and rapid fire.)

**j05013545**

104 replies , wow thanks Dakka and thank you guys.

**imrandomghgh**

Ovion wrote:Yes, the specfic wording is:

Tau Codex, Pg.27 wrote:XV8 Crisis Battlesuit:
The Battlesuits are designed to compensate for the recoil of light weapons fire, so they do not count as moving when they fire Rapid Fire weapons. This ability does not extend to heavy weapons, however, and the user must be stationary to fire them.

Warhammer Rulebook, Pg.76 wrote:Relentless:
Relentless models can shoot with rapid fire and heavy weapons counting as stationary, even if they moved in the previous Movement phase, and are also allowed to assault in the the same turn they fired them.

Warhammer Rulebook, Pg.76 wrote:Slow and Purposeful:
Models with this special rule are relentless (see above).
However they always count as moving through difficult terrain (including in assaults).

So yes, the standard rule of the Tau Codex for the XV8 specifies it counts as stationary for firing rapid fire weapons.
HOWEVER, the ASS simply confers Slow and Purposeful, which in turn gives the unit Relentless, which makes the model count as being stationary for the purposes of firing.

IF the XV8 Battlesuit rule prevents the Relentless Rule inherrant to Jump Infantry (Jet Pack) that was introduced in a later edition of the core rules, then by extension it would also prevent the Relentless provided by Slow and Purposeful.

It's simply a hold-over from a previous edition, like target-priority tests.

XV-15, XV-25 and any Drones that are Jump Infantry (Jet Pack) are also relentless so can fire rapid fire and heavy weapons even if they moved and can also Jump-Shoot-Jump.

But wait, how is that useful? Models with jump packs in the tau army don't really have any heavy weapons, and broadsides aren't relentless...

**Ovion**

I realise that most of the time it's a moot point, but if you're expanding your codex to include the Imperial Armour books, then the XV8s can take some Heavy weapons.

But yes, generally it's not going to do much, but it's good to know.

**imrandomghgh**

Ovion wrote:I realise that most of the time it's a moot point, but if you're expanding your codex to include the Imperial Armour books, then the XV8s can take some Heavy weapons.

But yes, generally it's not going to do much, but it's good to know.

So basically only markerlights and SMS?

Does anyone else REALLY want to see xv9s in our next codex?

**Jancoran**

I ran a Stealthcloud in a 1K+1K pairs tourney and we almost won the thing. MVP's were the Stealthclouds. So I like them when I use suits at all (and I dont very often).

The stealthcloud, as I call it, with 12 Drones is a beast when aided by Markerlights. So I give them a thumbs up.