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I agree that an Army may seem overpowering, but that does'nt mean it IS> I have an IG Friend who , ay 2000pts , runssomething like 16 Chimeras, with ML and HF. In each is either a single squad with a melta, or a PCS with 3 meltas and Flamer.
Another friend has a BA Mech list. Still a crap load of Armour 11-13 vehicles, with assault cannons/ LAzplas, etc.Folks complain its too much to handle. Its not. You just have to figure out HOW. ( IE. My DE blocking the Chimera's rear hatches and haywiring them to death is a great way to take down IG MECH).
One problem is , a lot of Folks Either have a tournament or "Take ALL Comer's " List that actually Isn't and are shocked when it can't perform.
Or: The player with the "OP"'d army actually put it together to take on your particular army that day.

And with that, to the Poster who said DE where OP? Whaaaaaa?

Testify wrote:

beigeknight wrote:I want to vote none of the above. I mean come on, there's a always a way to beat any list out there.

OP!=unplayable.
If I pay 15 points for a unit, and another army gets the same army for 15 points but with a couple of special rules, that army is overpowered.
Fact is some armies are capable of getting a lot more killing power than others.

I understand what you're saying, and there are undoubtedly instances where you are correct, but units don't exist in a vacuum. Two codices may contain the same unit (for sake of argument) with two different point costs, but of course those units have to be taken in the context of the book in which they are found. One book may contain other unit choices, options, special rules, etc that increase or decrease the value of that particular unit.

I'm not going to say the books are all expertly balanced, but it's never as simple as comparing one unit entry to another and shouting "OVERPOWERED!!!"

happygolucky wrote:Its not the case of an army is overpowered, it the list then stereotypical views of the army...

Example:

IG vendetta spam... any one who plays this list will think that IG are OP but most people know that this isn't the case, a further example is Venomspam anyone who plays that will think that DE are op (I am for one, of those people but only because I have only fought venomspam no other types of lists) but they are not.

The only reason why people complain why an army is OP is because of the spam lists and if you look in detail to each case of "Army X is OP because I cant beat them" is mainly because they have fought a spam list, therefore we should not be taking out our aggravation on an new army but more on spam lists...

I've had the hardest time fighting necrons. They outshoot just about everything right now (at their ranges anyways), glance on a 6 (and with all their shots they are going to glance something) which makes armor lists nearly useless, and mind-shackle-scarabs, lord how I hate those scarabs.

I've used a couple of BA lists against Necrons, Armor spam but I could not take the scarab swarms out fast enough and when they got to me it was game over, I've tried melee jump units/death company, while they are great and all a single dude failing his mind-shackle-scarab roll and blasting my squad with his power weapon really ruins my day. I am all for a challenge but I've had more problems fighting necrons than anything else thus far (for me anyways). I'd probably have issues with GK if the guy here playing them fielded dreadknights more often and used more than barebones paladins. But hey, it is probably a good thing he doesn't use his dreadknight that often because the necrons could mind shackle him too and he could just kill himself.

Yes sirree, for the first time yesterday, a Necron player attempted to Mindshackle my Urien Rakarth as he was charging into the frey with a six pack of Grotesques, and I thought " Oh, that 3+ Flesh Gauntlet is gonna suck...."
Luckily , It didn't happen, but I discovered a lot more than ussual about the Necrons. Terrain isssues upon Terrain issues. As hard to put down as it is to keep them down. Their Skimmers ignore my Darklances and where I used to be constantly on the assault, I now find out they may turn that against me.
They may not be OP, but they sure are annoying on all fronts.

I'm amused by the fact that Nids are rated more overpowered than DA. That ought to be enough to invalidate the results here.

captain collius wrote:some people hate Tau because when you play a good player they can mow you down.

BUt having played deamons anyone who says they are overpowered is foolish

Yes, true. They are a little more difficult than: "Place army and fire!" however that still does't mean that they are overpowered.

TedNugent wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Grey Knights can be countered by theoretically any army if the player is good enough.

But that's really not how the game should work, that non-GK (or non-Imperial in general) players basically deal with handicaps and an uphill struggle.

There is no counter to Grey Knights in the Ork Codex. I've looked.

Grey knights are marines, they just have a few oddities. BW bash vs GK can work pretty effectivly, nobsz kill purifiers, boyz kill paladins, pretty much like regular ork v vanilla merines throw boyz at termies they'll eventually die, throw a nobz squad with 3 pk's at a marines squad they dissappear. never charge nobz or warboss at a dreadknight it the opponant has them. outflanking koptas, or rokkit buggies/lootas at that crazy assassin who gets 3d6 +3 for pens. and just make sure you take out transports to slow them down and fight em on your terms.

shoting orks are also pretty awesome v greyknights, 45 lootas, 2 SAG, rokkit buggies x9 , battle wagons w/ kannons or kill kannons, and some retchin troops just pop transports on their side turn 1 and whittle it all down

as for the topic... wolves , everythign but vnailla marines get, but better, and cheaper. even with BW bash they just throw out so many missles I get glances to death, and JoTWW ... just wrong take out my nob so I haave 19 boys, then shoot them dwon so they are 9 and running away due to low leadership and no boss pole

blood angels are powerful but challenging, new necrons are hard to deal with but with only a few games in against em I cna't comment... quantum plating bums me out though, not much i can do vs av13 and pk's hitting on 6's vs that guy who zis 24 and hits a vehicle , or the list that keeps night fighting up, that one is rough on my eldar

G00fySmiley wrote:

Grey knights are marines, they just have a few oddities. BW bash vs GK can work pretty effectivly, nobsz kill purifiers, boyz kill paladins, pretty much like regular ork v vanilla merines throw boyz at termies they'll eventually die, throw a nobz squad with 3 pk's at a marines squad they dissappear. never charge nobz or warboss at a dreadknight it the opponant has them. outflanking koptas, or rokkit buggies/lootas at that crazy assassin who gets 3d6 +3 for pens. and just make sure you take out transports to slow them down and fight em on your terms.

Yeah, just a few oddities, like the one that makes half of your Boyz take a wound before blows are struck every single round of combat irrespective of whose turn it is? Or the other fun rule that lets every GK in the Codex with default equipment instant kill your Nobz and your Warboss?

You do realize that Purifiers have instant death sticks and Paladins have Feel no Pain and a 2+ save? How do you expect strength 4 Boyz to get thru a 2+ with FNP without Power Fists?

Also, I think you'd be pretty surprised how many Battlewagons the right Purifier list can take down in a turn, and then you get to enjoy Cleansing Flame on each of your assaulting units.

Your advice didn't really help.

G00fySmiley wrote:

TedNugent wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Grey Knights can be countered by theoretically any army if the player is good enough.

But that's really not how the game should work, that non-GK (or non-Imperial in general) players basically deal with handicaps and an uphill struggle.

There is no counter to Grey Knights in the Ork Codex. I've looked.

Grey knights are marines, they just have a few oddities. BW bash vs GK can work pretty effectivly, nobsz kill purifiers, boyz kill paladins, pretty much like regular ork v vanilla merines throw boyz at termies they'll eventually die, throw a nobz squad with 3 pk's at a marines squad they dissappear. never charge nobz or warboss at a dreadknight it the opponant has them. outflanking koptas, or rokkit buggies/lootas at that crazy assassin who gets 3d6 +3 for pens. and just make sure you take out transports to slow them down and fight em on your terms.

shoting orks are also pretty awesome v greyknights, 45 lootas, 2 SAG, rokkit buggies x9 , battle wagons w/ kannons or kill kannons, and some retchin troops just pop transports on their side turn 1 and whittle it all down

As an Ork player, I have to tell you that it's not that simple.

First, GKs are not "just marines with a few oddities". The difference between storm bolters and normal bolters has a big effect. What makes Orks good against vanilla marines is that the marines are static targets and can only do a little damage before the Orks are assaulting . GKs, on the other hand are not force to stand still and are far more mobile, staying out of the Ork's hands to do more damage. Even psyfle dreads are mobile , not that any ork would want to assault one.

BW bash rely largely on taking several nob squads to get the Battlewagons, who dies easily to any Grey Knight squads. Purifiers actually do well against Nobs because they have 2 attacks standard, so they can have 20 attacks that can instakill nobs, ignoring any halberds or deamonhammers. The Nobz will win the fight, if they were tricked out for wounds abuse then what they lost would still be more than what the GK player lost. Attacking paladins with Boyz is also a really bad idea, because they're still 2 wound terminators. A twenty strong choppa boyz with a PK nob will kill 1.61 paladins (slightly less if the PK attacks get moved onto a sword and a lot less if they have FNP). And in both cases that's with the Orks getting the charge. If they get charged, the paladins have 30 instant death attacks before the nobz can even swing back, and the boy will not only get shot before getting assault but the Paladins also have Holocaust which is a zogging S5 large blast plate.

Killing their vehicles is also a problem. The Ork way of dealing with vehicles is not destroying them, but stunning them then moving on to another target, which doesn't work with GKs because of fortitude. Focusing on destroying a target means having to use multiple squads to deal with them, meaning that's less anti-tank to go around. Not to mention that Psyfle dreads could rip buggies and deff koptas (and trukks, and killa kans) with ease and can do serious damage to BWs if they manage to get that side armor.

And your shooty Ork list sucks, because you got a mix of moving short range units and static long range units that don't work together, and all those units cost a total of 1670, assuming the grot squad is only 10 plus the runtherd, and that's before you add anything else (such as putting 'ard case or big shootas on the BWs for more durability), and that list would be torn limb from limb if the army outflanks or deep strikes

Not to mention that one of the Power Klaw wounds can be moved onto a Paladin with a warding staff if the GK player so chooses.

They don't even need to take a warding staff if Draigo is in the squad

TedNugent wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:

Grey knights are marines, they just have a few oddities. BW bash vs GK can work pretty effectivly, nobsz kill purifiers, boyz kill paladins, pretty much like regular ork v vanilla merines throw boyz at termies they'll eventually die, throw a nobz squad with 3 pk's at a marines squad they dissappear. never charge nobz or warboss at a dreadknight it the opponant has them. outflanking koptas, or rokkit buggies/lootas at that crazy assassin who gets 3d6 +3 for pens. and just make sure you take out transports to slow them down and fight em on your terms.

Yeah, just a few oddities, like the one that makes half of your Boyz take a wound before blows are struck every single round of combat irrespective of whose turn it is? Or the other fun rule that lets every GK in the Codex with default equipment instant kill your Nobz and your Warboss?

You do realize that Purifiers have instant death sticks and Paladins have Feel no Pain and a 2+ save? How do you expect strength 4 Boyz to get thru a 2+ with FNP without Power Fists?

Also, I think you'd be pretty surprised how many Battlewagons the right Purifier list can take down in a turn, and then you get to enjoy Cleansing Flame on each of your assaulting units.

Your advice didn't really help.

nobz are what goes into purifiers, the one hit to each nob isn't so bad.


if you can get the 19 boys w/ nob and pk go at pallies after you put some wounds on em you might lose but you'll do some good dmg.

I also tend to run 9 rokkit buggies, and rokkits at pallies, rokkits on pallies once transports open, also lootas on pallies. they are rough, but doable. and one that works well is dedicate a burna wagon to hitting pallies once they are on table, then charge with nob, bp and pk for the finish

if you can pump enough shots to get 3-4 wounds on them first (maybe 1-2 instant death due to rokkits) the rest from a round or 2 of loota fire

9 tl rokkits from buggies 1.3 hits 1.1 wound total for 9 rokkits 3.3 wounds 2+ save .55 chance instant kill

15 lootas 2 shots each 30 shots hits on 5/6 10 hits, wounds on 2/s 8.3 wounds 2+ w/ fnp .7 wounds

assuming a 5 man decked squad. burna wagon hits I run 8-9 burnas in a wagon and the big mek in w/ burna, assuming 9 templates can hit 4 pallies
36 hits wounds on 4's, 18 wounds, saves on 2's 3 wounds fnp 1.5 wounds (pallies are rough)
19 boys and nob shoot 20 shots 6.6 hit , 3.3 wound, 2+ armour w/ fnp .28 wounds
19 boys charge 3 die before hitting, 16 @ 4 attacks 64 hits on 4's 32 hits, 16 wounds, 2+ armour 2.56 wounds fnp 1.28 wounds
5 more orks die
nob goes 2 hits, 1.7 wounds, assuming 1 stave .6 chance of instant death

orks fearless 6 wounds 1 save made 9 boyz and nob wrap to next combat w/ 3.5 wounds on pallies possibly 1 instant death (if lucky 2 but we'll assume not)

3 die before hitting
6 hitting on 4's 9 hits 3 wounds, 2+ armour with fnp .25 wounds
5 more die
nob 1.5 hits 1 wound 2+ inv 1/6 chance of instant death
orks run

4.05 wounds on pallies hopefully 2 were instant killed though likely only 1 and 3 wounds on them

unload with rokikts and lootas

burna wagon tries to cleans up what is left making sure to move 7 inches with rpj , if you are lucky you stripped fnp in there somewhere or the warding stave in 1st combat but those aren't being taken into account

you lose a group of boys and it uses alot of shots, but really the point for me of throwing boys and nob at em is kick in some wounds and stall them from moving much for a turn to shoot at em again


I agree GK's are rough I'm just saying we can still play em, its challenging but imo its an easier win than blood angels

I've had good luck with ym 45 loota 2 SAG list vs gk's , you might nto like it, but Luke but its a fun list I like to play, and the SAG as a ap2 large blast does pretty good v paladins when it hits for 8+ str... though admittedly you still have to hit, its ork shooting which imo is for fun not really seriousness, but if you get a str 8+ and miss I'd use my ammo runt to reroll and hope for a hit

I'd rather play BAs any day of the week than GKs, even with all their !@$#ing ridiculous toys, and so would most people judging from the poll results.

Even their 5 USR models are better than instant death and psychic powers that instant wound 50% of a Boyz mob.

Using anything that isn't instant death against Paladins is a non-starter, and there's almost nothing in the dex that's AP 2 or AP1 that's also instant death, meaning you're highly dependent on Power Klaws. I actually made the case in another thread for Nob Squads against Paladins, else as another poster mentioned in that thread Kustom Mega Blasters on Kans might be a good idea, certainly a better idea than !@#%ing Lootas. You'd better be saving those Loota shots for their Psyfleman Dreads anyway.

My problem is not so much Nobs or their instant death rods in that sense, it's more the fact that they can ID any of your ICs short of Ghaz and your Boyz mobs would have a hard time, as in it'd almost be a waste of an attempt to even try unless you're planning on building a casualty mountain, against -either- Paladins or Purifiers. If you want to build a convincing case for Orks being able to defeat a Purifier list, I'd prefer you specified a points value and gave me a list. You don't have to do that math hammer, I will gladly chew through the numbers given something viable. It's what I've been doing but I've not found anything with convincing results thus far.

--------------------

That a 150 point mob of Boyz geared for close combat and set in a 130 pt transport would be incapable of defeating with any degree of certainty a 150 point Purifier mob built for shooting/generalist is just flat out !@#$ing ridiculous. There is no excuse for it. We have a close combat army. Slugga Boyz are close combat units. It's a tremendous amount of opportunity cost to say, all right, I'm going to field 20 of these guys and throw them in a wagon, oh wait, the wagon is a smoldering ruin from the Psycannon fire and now on top of that I get Cleansing Flame wounds. It's nuts.

What's even more absurd is that the army most vulnerable to the Psychic powers in the GK dex is the army with literally not a single piece of Wargear that provides any kind of Psychic resistance, not even -1 to Leadership roll, not anything whatsoever.

Psyfleman Dreads ID Nobz and ignore FNP and 'eavy armor, so you're basically stuck with a 5++ save against a model with 4 TL BS4 shots.

I just don't see a Battlewagon rush list working.

I was actually leaning more towards Kan Wall list, but the number of Kans a decent GK list can kill in one turn is horrifying.

Who are these people who think Tau, Nids & Eldar are OP?

TedNugent wrote:I'd rather play BAs any day of the week than GKs, even with all their !@$#ing ridiculous toys, and so would most people judging from the poll results.

Even their 5 USR models are better than instant death and psychic powers that instant wound 50% of a Boyz mob.

Using anything that isn't instant death against Paladins is a non-starter, and there's almost nothing in the dex that's AP 2 or AP1 that's also instant death, meaning you're highly dependent on Power Klaws. I actually made the case in another thread for Nob Squads against Paladins, else as another poster mentioned in that thread Kustom Mega Blasters on Kans might be a good idea, certainly a better idea than !@#%ing Lootas. You'd better be saving those Loota shots for their Psyfleman Dreads anyway.

My problem is not so much Nobs or their instant death rods in that sense, it's more the fact that they can ID any of your ICs short of Ghaz and your Boyz mobs would have a hard time, as in it'd almost be a waste of an attempt to even try unless you're planning on building a casualty mountain, against -either- Paladins or Purifiers. If you want to build a convincing case for Orks being able to defeat a Purifier list, I'd prefer you specified a points value and gave me a list. You don't have to do that math hammer, I will gladly chew through the numbers given something viable. It's what I've been doing but I've not found anything with convincing results thus far.

--------------------

That a 150 point mob of Boyz geared for close combat and set in a 130 pt transport would be incapable of defeating with any degree of certainty a 150 point Purifier mob built for shooting/generalist is just flat out !@#$ing ridiculous. There is no excuse for it. We have a close combat army. Slugga Boyz are close combat units. It's a tremendous amount of opportunity cost to say, all right, I'm going to field 20 of these guys and throw them in a wagon, oh wait, the wagon is a smoldering ruin from the Psycannon fire and now on top of that I get Cleansing Flame wounds. It's nuts.

What's even more absurd is that the army most vulnerable to the Psychic powers in the GK dex is the army with literally not a single piece of Wargear that provides any kind of Psychic resistance, not even -1 to Leadership roll, not anything whatsoever.

Psyfleman Dreads ID Nobz and ignore FNP and 'eavy armor, so you're basically stuck with a 5++ save against a model with 4 TL BS4 shots.

I just don't see a Battlewagon rush list working.

I was actually leaning more towards Kan Wall list, but the number of Kans a decent GK list can kill in one turn is horrifying.

agree to disagree on how we play, the guy i play who uses paladins and purifiers its the only thing I know that gives me a chance. I've gotten luck and knocked hit pallies out with the boys and unlucky he made all saves and pallies ripped it all apart but on average I can wipe them with the above strat. though I probably only have a 20% win rate he's rockign about a 40% the rest are draws. in capture and draw I can usually zip around and contest everything.

it is also possible you are playing a better grey knights player than I am and I playing better blood angels players (at least better than me)... blood angels just show up in storm ravens and kick my teeth in

just trying to help out with how I manage em. I am sad that the ork dex is showing its age. I'm hoping a new dex will give us more neat stuff, I'm actually really hoping for mob up to be brought back

I'm getting a kick outta the fact that some people actually voted Tau and Eldar as overpowered. Oh man, thats a good one.

This is a confusing question, at least to me. I don't know quite what measuring stick we are using for 'Overpowered.' Is it because they have more/better rules than a comparable army? You could then make the argument that Blood Angels are clearly overpowered in relation to Vanilla Marines, since they have almost everything that the Vanillas do, but with extra stuff on top of it. But by that token, then both of those Codexes (it sets my teeth on edge to write 'Codexes' rather than 'Codices,' but the former is the only one I've seen GW employees use) are overpowerd in relation to the Dark Angels.

On the whole, I think that there may very well be some differences in power levels of various Codexes. In fact, some of them may be very good against another. However, I don't think that any of these gaps in power are so vast that they cannot be overcome with good tactics.

Ultimately, I said Tyranids. It isn't that I think they are unbeatable. It's just that I've never defeated them. Heck, I've not only never done it, I've never even seen it done.

Jimsolo wrote:This is a confusing question, at least to me. I don't know quite what measuring stick we are using for 'Overpowered.' Is it because they have more/better rules than a comparable army? You could then make the argument that Blood Angels are clearly overpowered in relation to Vanilla Marines, since they have almost everything that the Vanillas do, but with extra stuff on top of it. But by that token, then both of those Codexes (it sets my teeth on edge to write 'Codexes' rather than 'Codices,' but the former is the only one I've seen GW employees use) are overpowerd in relation to the Dark Angels.

On the whole, I think that there may very well be some differences in power levels of various Codexes. In fact, some of them may be very good against another. However, I don't think that any of these gaps in power are so vast that they cannot be overcome with good tactics.

Ultimately, I said Tyranids. It isn't that I think they are unbeatable. It's just that I've never defeated them. Heck, I've not only never done it, I've never even seen it done.

Blood Angels:
Assault Marines- 5 man squad, melta/flamer, sgt with PFist, Razorback TL Plasma/Lascannon.

vs

Codex Marines:
Tactical Marines- 10 man squad, melta/flamer. sgt with PFist, Transport of choice.

It is far more expensive to field the basic troop choices for Codex Marines (unless you run scouts and a heavy flamer will ruin their day). On top of that Blood Angels have everything we do (almost anyways) and do everything better (see fast vehicles). A good player (BA) vs a good player (codex) would likely result in BAs winning, why? They can spam more armor than codex marines, their units are better in melee so they can take our range element away, and some of their HQs are insane.

Sorry but tactics or not BA blows Codex Marines away. I will concede the fact that tactics play a key role in things but a if both players are sound then all that is left is the rules they are using.

Edit:
Beating Nids, don't get into melee with them, run transports so the Doom of lame does not leadership eat your units and kite them with fast units (Valkyries, Hellhounds, Land Speeders etc etc). I've watched a nid player pretty much give up when he realized that he could not catch the fast units and was getting chewed up by ap1-2 weapons.

I think part of the problem is paper rock scissors, JimSolo thinks Nids are rough, with my orks I can turn any nids list I've seen to date into squig juice, but vs my space marines or Eldar they can be rough.

To me with my orks space wolves, blood angels and necrons are the most difficult for me. grey knights are difficult but I win more than the other 3 (I've never beat space wolves... I'm sure ti is possible but I've never pulled it off)

with eldar new necrons with keeping everything night fighting and the 12 inch charge scarabs are really hard. but my eldar can destroy space wolves grey knights or blood angels usually ... but will die to nids, orks, and IG but it might just be how I run them... but I'm not a very good eldar player so who knows

then my marines which I run as vanilla marines are meh they do ok vs everything but don't' really excel vs anything. but again I put very little thought into them, and rarely play mem... definitely the simplest army i play but i agaim might just not be good at them

worldwarme wrote:I agree that an Army may seem overpowering, but that does'nt mean it IS> I have an IG Friend who , ay 2000pts , runssomething like 16 Chimeras, with ML and HF. In each is either a single squad with a melta, or a PCS with 3 meltas and Flamer.
Another friend has a BA Mech list. Still a crap load of Armour 11-13 vehicles, with assault cannons/ LAzplas, etc.Folks complain its too much to handle. Its not. You just have to figure out HOW. ( IE. My DE blocking the Chimera's rear hatches and haywiring them to death is a great way to take down IG MECH).
One problem is , a lot of Folks Either have a tournament or "Take ALL Comer's " List that actually Isn't and are shocked when it can't perform.
Or: The player with the "OP"'d army actually put it together to take on your particular army that day.

And with that, to the Poster who said DE where OP? Whaaaaaa?

Huh?

If the exits are blocked, they can still get out unless the vehicle is 100% surrounded with a layer of impassable terrain and/or enemy models.

From the 5e Rulebook, page 67, section titled Disembarking, first paragraph, starting on line 6:

"If any models cannot disembark because of enemies or because they would end up in impassible terrain, the unit can perform an 'emergency disembarkation' - the models are deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicle's hull, but the unit can't do anything else for the rest of the turn. If even this disembarkation is impossible, they can't disembark."

Unless I'm missing an FAQ somewhere that says that emergency disembarkations are not possible if it's an involuntary disembarkation due to the vehicle being destroyed...

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/04/24/tournament-circuit-adepticon-championship-results-and-lists/

Top 5 on this site were the top 5 voted here on Dakka to be 'OP.' I thought that was interesting

I voted Eldar...

BECAUSE I HAVEN'T BEATEN THEM ONCE IN 20 YEARS OF PLAYING 40K!!!*

*sorry for the caps.

To explain how tau is getting votes, I voted for them as a "none" option. I knew people wouldn't take it seriously so that was the best I could do.

Now when observing this thread I do see a common feature of arguments from this thread where it the people who play GK say there not OP, and there are the obvious people who play against them, lose then say they are OP.

I am for one with the people who say GK are OP, and the GK players give us stratagys on how to beat them, and Ive been looking at this and can I just say, whoever said you can kill paladins with 20 boys... I tried 40 boyz on a big squad of paladins, and still got my teeth kicked in, the only point I can say for tactics against draigo is charge up ghazzy with his WAAAGH with a nob squad with a pain boy and a WAAAGH banner and the rest equipped with big choppas that way stick the blows on the nobz and get ghazzy on draigo that how I killed him, also Ork shooting? with lootas you have to pray you roll a 3+ to at least get some damage...

All I can say is with tactics regarding GK mobility is gonna be you key, and Ive fought them with CSM, and have yet to win...

To all those who say no army is OP and do not have GK, I take my hat off to you (unless you have venom spam) and have a cookie .

Without a shadow of a doubt this must go to SW. Too many reasons to properly enumerate.

I have to say, since I started Grey knights all I have heard is people complaining that they are "too overpowered"...

And then theres the people who actually try and plan around an enemies strengths, rather than just moan, who generally just say "they are really expensive space marines, who die just as fast as cheap space marines". Which to me sounds a lot more accurate.

As soon as all the wound-allocation shenanigans gets stopped, Grey Knights will just be like any other space marine army.

Which means most people will still moan that they are overpowered, but hey you cant win them all eh!

Edit: before all the hatemongers start shouting at me, I'm gonna say that I dont play any special characters, and therefore all the grey knight "OPness" does not apply to me. No draigowings, no crowe purifier spams. I personally disagree with wound allocations and rhino/razorback spams too. but to each their own.

So you don't use power builds and therefore you think the strength of the GK codex has been overstated? Why don't you try playing some power builds, or better yet, try to beat a GK power build with one of your GK builds?

Space wolves by far their codex is written to break the rules ... And you guy that say grey knights its just cause you have never played them. They have next to no anti tank power and all their stuff is really expensive.

I've played Grey Knights, mate.

I'd rather face SW any day.

The GK do lack the ability to crack AV 14, but not everyone HAS AV14 boxes to hide in.

My Orks, Daemons and DE all have far easier times with SW than GK (one player, equally experienced with both dexes, is one of my usual opponents.).

I'd take 4 JOTWW on top of longfangspam over Psy-ammo, unsupressable vehicles and cleansing flame and still smile for getting off easier.

They die like other SM to Plasma, Melta and other low AP stuff, but DE and Orks somewhat rely on being able to supress the enemy tanks if they can't kill them outright, and i'm not even going into how Daemons are vs GK .. . Sure it's fluffy that GK own daemons, but in the old Daemonhunters Dex the daemons got a rule to balance their effectiveness vs Daemons, in the name of Game Balance, which is now a tad lacking.

All armies should have an even shot of killing each other off, but that wouls be in an ideal universe where balance actually existed game-wide..

Ascalam wrote:I've played Grey Knights, mate.

I'd rather face SW any day.

The GK do lack the ability to crack AV 14, but not everyone HAS AV14 boxes to hide in.

My Orks, Daemons and DE all have far easier times with SW than GK (one player, equally experienced with both dexes, is one of my usual opponents.).

I'd take 4 JOTWW on top of longfangspam over Psy-ammo, unsupressable vehicles and cleansing flame and still smile for getting off easier.

They die like other SM to Plasma, Melta and other low AP stuff, but DE and Orks somewhat rely on being able to supress the enemy tanks if they can't kill them outright, and i'm not even going into how Daemons are vs GK .. . Sure it's fluffy that GK own daemons, but in the old Daemonhunters Dex the daemons got a rule to balance their effectiveness vs Daemons, in the name of Game Balance, which is now a tad lacking.

All armies should have an even shot of killing each other off, but that wouls be in an ideal universe where balance actually existed game-wide..

The benefit that GK do have is the ability to potentially pop Hammerhand 3 times on one squad (if they do things right) and with the right weapons they could easily be swinging at str 10, plus the libby who could give them more d6 to pen vehicles. Sure they do not have as many range options but their melee can most definitely take care of it. Their Stormravens can punch av 14, and if they build it with psy-ammo they may have issues with av 14 but str 7 (+1) heavy 4, rending, twin-linked, is pretty sick on their assault cannon. They have dreadnoughts, lascannon. And they have dreadknights (DCCW) so str 10 (and do monstrous creatures get 2d6 to pen?)

Anyways, they lack predators and some options like that, but they more than make up for that with what they do have. Furthermore, use the SR to get your melee anti-everything into range.

GK are pretty insane, when someone uses their awesome stuff right.