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GK are either broken or way too expensive, it varies.
CSM are too expensive
DE are too cheap
Eldar are too cheap

You can find something wrong with any army. Deal with it.

Lightning Shadows wrote:GK are either broken or way too expensive, it varies.
CSM are too expensive
DE are too cheap
Eldar are too cheap

You can find something wrong with any army. Deal with it.

thats probably the first time i've heard an argulent that eldar are to cheap. most people say some units are priced right or overcosted for the points, elaborate please where you think they are to cheap

No army as a whole is broken. Every army has broken builds (Tau: Fifteen Crisis suits, nine Broadsides, twelve Fire Warriors. It's a legal army). Some armies have more broken builds than others (Grey Knights have a very easy time coming up with a broken list out of the basic plastic kits and some obviously overpowered units that everyone knows about). Some broken builds are easier to play than others (Ravenwing can be horribly, horribly deadly in the hands of an experienced player, but in the hands of an amateur it's a joke).

At the end of the day, determining whether a list is broken or not is only good for one thing: bragging rights when you slaughter a 'broken' list with a 'useless' one because some poor shmuck thinks Paladins as Troops is a substitute for knowing what the heck he's doing.

Oh im sure GK can come up with stupidly powerful units. In fact I know they can. For now.

And seeing as all those models take wounds just as easily as a standard space marine terminator (im talking about paladins atm, as that seems to be the main complain people have), are a lot more expensive, and yet are HIGHLY susceptible to insta-death... I play as Dark Eldar too, and Dark lances being Strength 8, I believe, means that they can ruin paladin squads?

a few decent lance hits (which is easy for a DE player to fit into his list) and thats 2 or 3 dead paladins, no wound allocations, and theres 160 points gone. As well as a third of an entire paladin squad. I may be wrong here, im only doing this off the top of my head. 30 seconds of thought lol. But if I was fielding my DE against a GK player, I'd certainly be including Lances in my list.

If the pallys are in stormravens, then shoot down the stormravens. Even in a 2000 point game, if there is 2 squads of paladins and 2 stormravens, they wont be fielding an awful lot of other stuff, as that is over 1000points tied up in 10x paladins and 2x AV12 skimmers. include draigo and a librarian in that and its closer to 1500points. And from what I hear, stormravens are far from difficult to shoot down.

Also I did look into the whole 3x hammerhand thing, which is very potent to be sure. Except it does mean the unit ends up costing something like 200+200+unit cost, (im assuming its librarian + GM + squad) so if its terminators then thats a unit costing about 850points for 12 models. Yeh sure they would then be strength 7, but they risk 3 POTW every turn they try it, and if the dice rolls dont go in their favour, that would seem to cost them an awful lot.

GKs seem like they are stupidly powerful, if you never roll anything below a 3. If however you are a mere mortal man, and roll a few 1's now and then, then they seem to die, and die hard. With a vengeance. And they have very little room for redundancies.

I wont argue that there are definatley a couple of flaws in the GK list, but im still pretty certain thats its only because they are still running on the 5th edition rules. Im quietly confident that Paladins will lose the ability to allocate wounds in that crazy way they do. And I'll be HAPPY to see it go, as it is a stupid exploit that people are using in my opinion. And once that has gone I'm sure there will be a lot less paladins being fielded by those pesky competitive players.

Other than that, they seem to me to be a very expensive, low model count army that has some highly powerful but expensive units. Which im pretty sure is what they were always supposed to be. They are formed from the geneseed of the Emperor Himself, they should be pretty damn good.

PLEASE READ: Im not an expert, im just replying to the opinions expressed here with opinions and ideas of my own. Im happy to be proven wrong, as it would simply be educating me further on my own army lists, and thats why I am here, to learn.
If you respond to me with anything other than polite discussion I will probably ignore you

This kinda turned into a rant anyway, not really sure why. I guess I get very defensive over my choices. It just seems to me there are plenty of ways of beating a GK list, its just a matter of tactics and planning.

Jstncloud wrote:

Ascalam wrote:I've played Grey Knights, mate.

I'd rather face SW any day.

The GK do lack the ability to crack AV 14, but not everyone HAS AV14 boxes to hide in.

My Orks, Daemons and DE all have far easier times with SW than GK (one player, equally experienced with both dexes, is one of my usual opponents.).

I'd take 4 JOTWW on top of longfangspam over Psy-ammo, unsupressable vehicles and cleansing flame and still smile for getting off easier.

They die like other SM to Plasma, Melta and other low AP stuff, but DE and Orks somewhat rely on being able to supress the enemy tanks if they can't kill them outright, and i'm not even going into how Daemons are vs GK .. . Sure it's fluffy that GK own daemons, but in the old Daemonhunters Dex the daemons got a rule to balance their effectiveness vs Daemons, in the name of Game Balance, which is now a tad lacking.

All armies should have an even shot of killing each other off, but that wouls be in an ideal universe where balance actually existed game-wide..

The benefit that GK do have is the ability to potentially pop Hammerhand 3 times on one squad (if they do things right) and with the right weapons they could easily be swinging at str 10, plus the libby who could give them more d6 to pen vehicles. Sure they do not have as many range options but their melee can most definitely take care of it. Their Stormravens can punch av 14, and if they build it with psy-ammo they may have issues with av 14 but str 7 (+1) heavy 4, rending, twin-linked, is pretty sick on their assault cannon. They have dreadnoughts, lascannon. And they have dreadknights (DCCW) so str 10 (and do monstrous creatures get 2d6 to pen?)

Anyways, they lack predators and some options like that, but they more than make up for that with what they do have. Furthermore, use the SR to get your melee anti-everything into range.

GK are pretty insane, when someone uses their awesome stuff right.

Dreadknights are MC (2d6 + str pen) but don't benefit from the DCCW as they aren't walkers. They are still plenty rippy vs vehicles in CC.

I'll revise my comment to 'they struggle with AV 14 at range' if it's more helpful that way, but then so do my Orks

AnomanderRake wrote:No army as a whole is broken. Every army has broken builds (Tau: Fifteen Crisis suits, nine Broadsides, twelve Fire Warriors. It's a legal army).

Legal, but hardly broken. Works great against GK. And that's about it.

Jstncloud wrote:So I played a game this passed weekend against Necrons and boy was I blown away by some of their new stuff. Not only did it confuse the bejeebus out of me but the mind-shackle-scarabs and 36 inch tank shocks were completely catching me off guard. I've caught a bunch of crap for playing some games as Blood Angels. Since then we've had Necrons and Space Wolves fielded (as well as some Grey Kinghts) and I have seen some crazy stuff, stuff that made me feel a lot better about playing BAs from time to time since I could be using something else that is far more crazy (at least to me anyways).

Anyways, thought I'd get some feedback from Dakka.

Since when could Ne(w)crons Tank shock? Most vehicles are skimmers and I'm sure (not 100% though) that Nonoliths can no longer Tank Shock either.

Sorry if I'm going off topic. On topic however there are some armies that have it easier than others, but if you're not willing to adapt and learn to the new stuff then you're not really growing or gaining any experience as a 40K general IMO.

No army is over powered just some army's are a hell of lot easier to use than others

Xirmant wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:So I played a game this passed weekend against Necrons and boy was I blown away by some of their new stuff. Not only did it confuse the bejeebus out of me but the mind-shackle-scarabs and 36 inch tank shocks were completely catching me off guard. I've caught a bunch of crap for playing some games as Blood Angels. Since then we've had Necrons and Space Wolves fielded (as well as some Grey Kinghts) and I have seen some crazy stuff, stuff that made me feel a lot better about playing BAs from time to time since I could be using something else that is far more crazy (at least to me anyways).

Anyways, thought I'd get some feedback from Dakka.

Since when could Ne(w)crons Tank shock? Most vehicles are skimmers and I'm sure (not 100% though) that Nonoliths can no longer Tank Shock either.

Sorry if I'm going off topic. On topic however there are some armies that have it easier than others, but if you're not willing to adapt and learn to the new stuff then you're not really growing or gaining any experience as a 40K general IMO.

It is the only 'Tank' in their army I believe. (even if it is a skimmer it also has the tank special rule).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ravnak wrote:No army is over powered just some army's are a hell of lot easier to use than others

Respectfully disagree, see Blood Angels compared to Codex Marines, they have 99% of our tricks and none of our weaknesses. (Lets face it, TFCs and LSSs are just not that great compared to Baal Predators, Furiosos, and Priests).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niiru wrote:Oh im sure GK can come up with stupidly powerful units. In fact I know they can. For now.

And seeing as all those models take wounds just as easily as a standard space marine terminator (im talking about paladins atm, as that seems to be the main complain people have), are a lot more expensive, and yet are HIGHLY susceptible to insta-death... I play as Dark Eldar too, and Dark lances being Strength 8, I believe, means that they can ruin paladin squads?

a few decent lance hits (which is easy for a DE player to fit into his list) and thats 2 or 3 dead paladins, no wound allocations, and theres 160 points gone. As well as a third of an entire paladin squad. I may be wrong here, im only doing this off the top of my head. 30 seconds of thought lol. But if I was fielding my DE against a GK player, I'd certainly be including Lances in my list.

If the pallys are in stormravens, then shoot down the stormravens. Even in a 2000 point game, if there is 2 squads of paladins and 2 stormravens, they wont be fielding an awful lot of other stuff, as that is over 1000points tied up in 10x paladins and 2x AV12 skimmers. include draigo and a librarian in that and its closer to 1500points. And from what I hear, stormravens are far from difficult to shoot down.

Also I did look into the whole 3x hammerhand thing, which is very potent to be sure. Except it does mean the unit ends up costing something like 200+200+unit cost, (im assuming its librarian + GM + squad) so if its terminators then thats a unit costing about 850points for 12 models. Yeh sure they would then be strength 7, but they risk 3 POTW every turn they try it, and if the dice rolls dont go in their favour, that would seem to cost them an awful lot.

GKs seem like they are stupidly powerful, if you never roll anything below a 3. If however you are a mere mortal man, and roll a few 1's now and then, then they seem to die, and die hard. With a vengeance. And they have very little room for redundancies.

I wont argue that there are definatley a couple of flaws in the GK list, but im still pretty certain thats its only because they are still running on the 5th edition rules. Im quietly confident that Paladins will lose the ability to allocate wounds in that crazy way they do. And I'll be HAPPY to see it go, as it is a stupid exploit that people are using in my opinion. And once that has gone I'm sure there will be a lot less paladins being fielded by those pesky competitive players.

Other than that, they seem to me to be a very expensive, low model count army that has some highly powerful but expensive units. Which im pretty sure is what they were always supposed to be. They are formed from the geneseed of the Emperor Himself, they should be pretty damn good.

PLEASE READ: Im not an expert, im just replying to the opinions expressed here with opinions and ideas of my own. Im happy to be proven wrong, as it would simply be educating me further on my own army lists, and thats why I am here, to learn.
If you respond to me with anything other than polite discussion I will probably ignore you

This kinda turned into a rant anyway, not really sure why. I guess I get very defensive over my choices. It just seems to me there are plenty of ways of beating a GK list, its just a matter of tactics and planning.

Just want to point out Paladins have invulnerability saves. I know they have 5+ innately however I cannot remember if their standard weapons increase this to 4s in assaults or at all times. so that is generally at least a 2+/4+ with 2HP and FNP if you run the apothecary. The issue is if you do not take them down with instant death then FNP with wound allocation is insane, assuming they do not pack them into storm ravens.

That and it would take the firepower of half the army to take down that one unit that way. It would be like saying that using Deestators to take out the unit would be the best way to deal with them as SM. Yes, 4 lascannon would work quite well, but woudn't there be something else you'd want to be shooting them at?

DE transports have DL. You can take as many as nine (counting elites), and if they were all firing you would hit six guys on average, wound five, and then have 1/3 make those inv saves (assuming it's 5+ -so about 2 deaths)...... or you could fire them at the razorbacks, Stormravens and Psy-dreads that are downing your vehicles like flies... You could give them disintegrators to deal with heavy infantry (AP 2 and 3 shots is nice for that) but then they have next to no chance of hurting a vehicle, and the vehicles are where the infantry are going to be hiding most of the time.

Ravagers can take DL also, and will hit with 2 per turn, on average, but they are really better off tankhunting..

DE troops can take DL too, one to a unit. They have to be sitting in a stationary raider or outside a vehicle to use them, and a stationary raider isn't that tough, and less so when being autohit in CC Trueborn and Scourges can take more, but again can't fire them on the move, which sacrifices the DE's main advantage, speed.

Blasters and Blast pistols are S8, AP 2 , right enough, but they are short ranged, pricy and require the unit to be in charge range of whoever they are shooting (just about.. certainly in shooting range) in the open (usually, anyway) and/or on a slow moving AV 10 skimmer, open topped. When those things go up (and they will) the occupants generally take serious casualties due to low armour and toughness.

A Razorwing is my preferred anti-infantry weapon, not DL spam which is far better used for the purpose it was intended for, antitank.

A splinter cannon, 4 missiles and disintegrators will make a mess out of most infantry, een if it does then mean that a single guy with a storm bolter (or even a bolt pistol) can then shoot it down


*edit - math *

Well current edition is grey knights no doubt. But Recently I did a test. I pitted my fourth edition space marines. With one of the most cheesiest things I could do. I took an apoclaypse army. And My friend had an army of grey knights so I gave him 2,000 points of my grey knight army. And we had a 4,000 point battle. I deployed 10 squads of space marines. (1st company rules from Apocalypse Reloaded) Heres that catch....
Each squad had 1 librarian, 1 captain and 1 chaplain. They were all veteran squads. With Artifcer armor, power weapons and combi-meltas for each member of the squad... Oh and they had feel no pain. Inflitration, Rentless, Fearless, Furious Charge and Acute Senses. And jump packs. You want to call cheese Thats cheese. In 4 turns his army was on the run as my army slaughtered everything in its path. Oh land raiders goodbye! Theres some real cheese for. Thats why I like my fourth edition codex. I could cheese the living snot out of people. And it was completely legal! Terminator honors allows you to select from the armory for each member that has it. Everyone in a veteran squad can take terminator honors.

But anyway. From what I have seen Grey Knights with Dakka Dreads are torture for regular armies.

Though in all honesty if you play smart and hide. He can't hit you.

Thats why i use my fourth ed codex sometimes to kill people that use cheese lists. It makes them think twice before deploying a cheesy army. Because if I am nearby and the city calls. The Wanderers will show up to kick them in the nads. Captain PLANET style.

Asherian Command wrote:Well current edition is grey knights no doubt. But Recently I did a test. I pitted my fourth edition space marines. With one of the most cheesiest things I could do. I took an apoclaypse army. And My friend had an army of grey knights so I gave him 2,000 points of my grey knight army. And we had a 4,000 point battle. I deployed 10 squads of space marines. (1st company rules from Apocalypse Reloaded) Heres that catch....
Each squad had 1 librarian, 1 captain and 1 chaplain. They were all veteran squads. With Artifcer armor, power weapons and combi-meltas for each member of the squad... Oh and they had feel no pain. Inflitration, Rentless, Fearless, Furious Charge and Acute Senses. And jump packs. You want to call cheese Thats cheese. In 4 turns his army was on the run as my army slaughtered everything in its path. Oh land raiders goodbye! Theres some real cheese for. Thats why I like my fourth edition codex. I could cheese the living snot out of people. And it was completely legal! Terminator honors allows you to select from the armory for each member that has it. Everyone in a veteran squad can take terminator honors.

But anyway. From what I have seen Grey Knights with Dakka Dreads are torture for regular armies.

Though in all honesty if you play smart and hide. He can't hit you.

Thats why i use my fourth ed codex sometimes to kill people that use cheese lists. It makes them think twice before deploying a cheesy army. Because if I am nearby and the city calls. The Wanderers will show up to kick them in the nads. Captain PLANET style.

I imagine knowing the strengths of an army could let many armies be super cheese at 4000 points not to mention whatever Apocalypse mess you just cited I have no clue what it is about, good chance the other guy might not know either. Not saying the army isn't awesome just pointing out confusion could be half of that battle.

Jstncloud wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Well current edition is grey knights no doubt. But Recently I did a test. I pitted my fourth edition space marines. With one of the most cheesiest things I could do. I took an apoclaypse army. And My friend had an army of grey knights so I gave him 2,000 points of my grey knight army. And we had a 4,000 point battle. I deployed 10 squads of space marines. (1st company rules from Apocalypse Reloaded) Heres that catch....
Each squad had 1 librarian, 1 captain and 1 chaplain. They were all veteran squads. With Artifcer armor, power weapons and combi-meltas for each member of the squad... Oh and they had feel no pain. Inflitration, Rentless, Fearless, Furious Charge and Acute Senses. And jump packs. You want to call cheese Thats cheese. In 4 turns his army was on the run as my army slaughtered everything in its path. Oh land raiders goodbye! Theres some real cheese for. Thats why I like my fourth edition codex. I could cheese the living snot out of people. And it was completely legal! Terminator honors allows you to select from the armory for each member that has it. Everyone in a veteran squad can take terminator honors.

But anyway. From what I have seen Grey Knights with Dakka Dreads are torture for regular armies.

Though in all honesty if you play smart and hide. He can't hit you.

Thats why i use my fourth ed codex sometimes to kill people that use cheese lists. It makes them think twice before deploying a cheesy army. Because if I am nearby and the city calls. The Wanderers will show up to kick them in the nads. Captain PLANET style.

I imagine knowing the strengths of an army could let many armies be super cheese at 4000 points not to mention whatever Apocalypse mess you just cited I have no clue what it is about, good chance the other guy might not know either. Not saying the army isn't awesome just pointing out confusion could be half of that battle.

Check out the Doctrines in the Space Marine Codex. My army can't get certain units. The Doctrines let you take special rules. So I did the next best thing. I got rid of land speeders and I couldn't use droppods, instead I could use Tactical marines that had 5 special rules and everyone could infiltrate.

GK: too many to name.
BA: Incredibly cheap lasplas or AC fast razors.
SW: Rune Priest's lightning/jaws combo, cheap but well geared troops with counter attack.